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Home My WebLink AboutM111384 e--- , r i i ! , I ! :, 1 i-':~~": ';'i' ,. . II (I DiS'trict No. 1 Commissioner: District No. 2 Commissioner: District No. 3 Commissioner: . Larry . Dennison, Member B.G. B own, Chairman John L Pitts, Member Clerk of the Board: Public Works Director: Jerdin Brian 1'1~11~~,j t: Nil l..J 'L 'illl S :' C. Bragg . Shelton -------------------------------------------------- ------------------ Week of November 13~ 1984 The meeting was called to order at 10:00 a.m. by Chairman B.G. Brown. Commissioner John L. Pitts and Commis ioner Larry W. Dennison were in attendance. Sheriff Lee Smith re: Bud et and other i ems: Meeting: A meeting was set up for November 20~ 19 4-at l:OO p.m. with Mayor Brent Shirley, the Sheriff and the Board to discuss emergency services. Clerical Support: Sheriff Smith reported position to work on the addressing system has been ffi1DugbaState Job Training program. The position i will cost the County a total of $750.00. This pos to bring the addressing system up to date on the c take about 2~ to 3 months once the person becomes system. If there is time the person could possibl collection duties for the emergency. services progr possible to extend the program for six months. The a person is still needed for clerical support in t department after the Board agreed that the Sheriff temporary position provided by the State's job tr Budget matters: The Sheriff also reported that hi one position and desperately needs more manpower w coming on at the end of the year. The County ca ered with the level of manpower the department cur department can prove by its own historical data an departments that a certain amount of presence does impact on the crime level in an area. At present that a budget appropriation will be needed to fini is no way to estimate the overtime that will be wo two months. mporary clerical approved for funding for six months and tion will be used mputer which will amiliar with the be used for data m. It may also be Sheriff advised that e emergency services may go ahead with the ining program. department is down th the peak period not be properly cov- ently has. The data from other reduce and have an t doesn't appear h out 1984, but there ked during the next In response to the Board's inquiry about staffing evels for 1985, the Sheriff noted that he had not asked for additional manpower in his 1985 budget. Any early relief that could be approved wo ld be appreciated. Work Release Programs: Commissioner Pitts noted t tact with Lynn Laudnell of the Department of Corre a meeting with interested department heads on work persons sentenced through the court for community a State Work Release program. The Sheriff advised that due the past experience w type of program, he has already advised them that not have any space available for their program. T erating its own work release program with Parks, P other department that can fit into the program. T implementing authority for the program, and the pr set up. at he had been in con- tions about setting up release programs for ervice. This would be th the State on this efferson County does e County may, be op- blic Works ahd any e Sheriff is the cedures have been LVOC 10 fAtE IQ 639 Minutes Week of November l3,984 Page 2: Commissioner Pitts advised t he would contact see if they have any other as ect of the program to Jefferson County's needs. e State again to at may be appropriate Commissioner Denni on seconde Commissioner Pitts' motion to approve and sign the Compr hensive Em rgency Management pr gram Paper for fiscal year 1985 for subm ssion to teState. APPROVAL F MINUTES: November s: 1984 w re approve Pitts seconded by ommissione Gre Wri currently has a $2 resents five month He would like to b granted a reprieve He feels that the does save some ite to the dump, but t cannot be recycled Chairman Brown adv the Solid Waste Fe gram. Commissione bly do some type 0 the charges accrue The Board will dis date. They will a on Bayshore Recycl Greg Wright furthe available at the e based projects suc these funds on to Department which 0 The minutes of Oct ber ,8 ,15, 22 and as corrected on th motion of Commissioner Dennison. prove Resolution priations and extentions r 26, 1984 at lO:30a.m. t re: Ba sore Garba e Bill: 6.00 bill ith the Solid Waste of dumpin , Greg Wright, proje exempt fr m charges at the dum on the $28 .00 bill and start 0 ounty is s ving money because B s that wou d have to be buried ey also ge erate a certain amou sed that t s to any g Pitts sug "in kind" at the d uss the ma so ask Pub ng's bill. reported d of the y as Solid ary Rowe, ersee the ayshore Recycling epartment which rep- t Manager reported. or to at least be er with a new bill. yshore recycling f they were taken t of garbage that e County has not gi oup, ana do not want ested that Bayshore service for the Coun p such as cleaning u ter further and cont ic Works to extend t en an exemption to to start such a pro- ecyclingcould possi- y in exchange for an illegal dump. ct Greg at a later e time for payment hat HUD has some fun ing that will be ar for employment tr ining for community aste. He will pass he information about ssistant Director of the Public Works olid Waste operation. Sheriff L e Smith re: Ordinance No. 8-84 Sheriff Smith re- ported that Sectio Four of 0 dinance No. 8-84 whi h regulates the carry- ing and use of fir arms in a afety zone surroundi g the Olympic and Clearwater Correct on Centers, is not correct beca se only County law enforcement office scan enfo ce a County Ordinanc . The Sheriff will c eck with t e Prosecuting Attorn y to see if the Ordinance needs to be amended. HEARING r : Intent t Vacate, ortion of the Station Prairie Cut-Off Road: Cha rman Brown op,ened the hearing a d explained that this intention is 0 vacate a piece of road rigbfo -way which will be replaced by anothe right-of- ay to improve road ignment. The Chair- man then asked if nyone was resent to speak for r against the vaca- tion. Floyd Dale Kimball who owns p locked if the vaca ion were g process to provide an access about why the Coun y is consi is completed. hat would be ns were made d that he is before Otto land- in the confused Street operty in this area anted and no provisi o his property, sta ering vacating a ro : VOl 10 fAtE r 3640 Minutes, Week of November l3, 1984 Page 3: Mr. Kimball further noted tha there is a problem property now and it could possibly become worse wh ished. He is not objecting t what is proposed, b that the road is put in right with as good a road He would like a guarantee tha his property will n if it is that its going to be corrected by the Cou After disc Mr. Kimbal vacation 0 thing for that would would be r driveway t would not Mr. Kimbal taining a now. He u of-way to Brian Shel those need l) An eas Kimball's with Mr. S present to to clear, Mr. Seton him for ha ssion of the source of the flooding, Ch that the flooding problem is a separat the right-of-way. The County would n r. Kimball if the drainage of his prope be a civil matter between him and Mr. S quired to replace r. Kimball's present at is at least as good as the present 0 e required to maintain that driveway as advised that he does not want the resp riveway, especially since he has a Coun derstood tbat Mr. Lammer's was going to he County and that the road would then on, Public Works Director, reported tha d to address the cocerns raised by Mr. ment across Mr. La er's property and 2 ccees. Brian Shelton continued noting ton, who, due to a prior appointment, w ay, it was estimated to cost approximat rade and gravel Otto street back throug ould do the work and has proposed that f or about $l,500. ith flooding on his n Otto Street is fin- t wants to be sure s he has presently. t be flooded and ty. irman Brown advised issue from the t be able to do any- ty was blocked because ton. The County driveway with a new eJ but the County a County road. nsibility of main- y road to his property deed a 60 foot right- ecome a County road. two conditions beside Kimball today were: Provision for Mr. hat in his discussions s not able to be , ly $2,500 to $3,000 Mr. Lammer's property. he County reimburse Chairman B own closed the hearing when no one else appeared to speak for or aga'nst the vacation and noted that the Boa d needs to address whether th l80 feet of Mr. Ki ball's driveway sho ld become part of the County Road system in light of Mr. Kimball's 0 jections. Commission r Pitts moved to ta Ie action on the in ent to vacate until the situat on with Mr. Kimball is resolved. Commi sioner Dennison sec- onded the otion. BUSINESS OM COUNTY DEPAR Public Wor s re: S: A Mr. Stroed r is willing to tra square feet of right-of-way fo piece of C unty property in th of the Cit of Port Townsend. a roadway 0 minimum County st to open this right-of-way. Commission r Pitts moved to ap to open ri ht-of-way as presen with the c ndition that access the property trade is finalize be allowed to proceed with the of-way bef te the trade is fin Commission r Dennison seconded ~VOL 10 fACE rr.- 36 1 , Patison Street 1icant: Assistant Rowe, explained that te of this application y on Patison Street s, however, to dedi- allow for a proper ounty would have way through a purchase intersection, but perty exchange. e approximately 3,000 a 490 square foot ,Eisenbeis Addition He will also construct ndards if allowed rove the application ed by A.E.Stroeder not be granted until . Mr. Stroeder will clearing of the right- lized, however. the motion. Minutes, Week of November 13, 1984 Page 4: Final Sunr Sunrock IMo out of ~ri cation, as about I a for appItov i EVerY,-t~o by a sh9're comm:uniUy Since t~'e cation , ha before he Works djpa need to be mylar, ~ac but lea'{e the other I Mr. & MJ s . that th~y the platt w 0, n Wed, n~sd final p at in the re feet of i-i being r~qu . , . an 1mpoS1t I I I ' chairmal B own explained that right-o -w y is required by th inance nd that a,pparentlY non owners n hat area have subdi The Board oncurred that they the of req ired County departm plat befor they take action t I Final ctes haven Lon Plat: C moved to a!prove and sign the which R~ch I ,Natha,nson e, x p l,ain the Cap. Gorge Development (f Estate)~an consists of B.26 a twelve tot. Commissioner Den motion. I I Pro ose~ Count oa at 2:00Ip. hearinglre Jefferscpn change $ec approve~. Planning re: ck Mobile Home Plat: The proposed ile Home Plat is 10 ted one half a mile non on Church Road. .T~e.original ~ppli- for 18 lots in two 1V1S1ons cover1ng res. Division No.2 is not being considered 1 since its applica ion has expired. lots in Divisi sewage disposal sys ater system, Rachel ealth Department is the water system me can sign off the pI tment has noted some corrected before th el asked that the B he Clerk of the Boar epartments have sig Thornton, project p ere asked to be at s reviewed by the PI y evening, recommen She noted that ot had not be require ht-of-way to the Co red to dedicate and on. endment to Ordinanc Vacation Ordinance . was set as the da arding the proposed ounty Road Vacation ion 6 - Compensatio Commissioner Dennis Varianc' r Kim McBri of Octo~er The Boar ni. ng Di~e,C or, David Goldsmith be advi ed that he can revise a three be room house if he ag House fr t e property. Setback Va iance re uest re: S Mrs. Si si augh have requeste normal .et ack requirements to a 24' xi36' garage on their Be The Board dvised that they wo mation l;>ef reD;laking a decisio I ~v 10 fAtE (I' ~ '36 . No. 1 is served em and is on a athanson explained. aiting for certifi- ts State standards t and the Public minor errors that can sign the plat rd final the plat, 's attest blank until d the mylar. ponents, reported is meeting since nning Commission d approval of the r property owners to dedicate the 30 ty that they were she felt this was he dedica,tion of Subdivision Ord- of the other property ided their property. ould wait until all nts had signed the finalize the plat. mmissioner Pitts resthaven Long Plat d is located within rmerly the Palmer res divided into ison seconded the No. 4-80; Jefferson December ll, 1984 e and time for a amendment to the Ordinance which will Requirement if n seconded the motion. e: (See also Minutes concurred with Plan- that Mr. McBride is house plans to ees to remove the Guest Mr. & from the to build Minutes, Week of November 13, 1 Page 5: i Time tation re: Change i mitigative measures: Time w ~ssue a temporar occupancy perm~t last week to allow them to op their store and gas st~ti n in Hadlock, but t 0 mitigative measures need t~ b corrected before a permanent occupancy permit~lca be issued, Rachel athanson reported. 1) Si n . eight is too high. The project pro- pOlen will correct this ituation. 2) Patki g spaces: Mitigatio requires eight patki g spaces, but thereis only room for seven on the site. The P nning Department ha~ i spected the site an advised that th4re should not be any p blem in allowing th1 m tigation to be chan d to seven spaces. Commis~io er Pitts moved to a rove the change in thelmi igative measure to low seven parking spaces Ion the site of the Tim Oil store and gas statioq if Hadlock. Commissi er Dennison seconded the mottio . Budget Transfer: Vlri ~s County Departmen The budget transfers requested y t e P anning u~ 1ng, uveni e SerV1C s, Cooperative Exten- sion, Building Maintenance a~d lommissioners' offic were approved on the motion of Commissioner plitt to sign Resolution o. 78-84. Commissioner Dennison seconded the motionJ i i I The meeting was reJes ed until 7:00 p.m. 'd reconvened in the second floor Courtroom of t e Courthouse. All t_ree Commissioners were present when the meetin$ r convened. i , !Pr un present w en a~rman 0 a possibl~ moratorium on the lae County. \ ..' . I I The following is as close tOd'a is possible from the tape re .or where it was impossible to h~ar i Chairman B.G. Brown: I have Ito apologize because no e of us understand how to make our new microphoqe ystem work, the Judg put in something new here and he's keeping it ia ecret. So, whoever 's speaking will have to speak up so that hop~fu ly everyone in the r om will hear what happens. The purpose is to ~s, we received a petiti n as you mayor may not be aware, sometime b ck to petition the Co ty to declare a five year moratorium on the er'al spraying in Jeffe son County. Before we took any action on that pati ion, we decided that we probably had better gather more facts and Ikn w more about the who e situation than we did at the time we got th~ p tition. That's the urpose of the meeting. We have set thses up in thre~ d'fferent meetings wit a list of questions for the people who are speak~ng for the continuation of the herbicide spraying and the people who ~re speaking to hve a mo atorium declared. The first question that we w~ll let each side speak 0 tonight, was to be the physical impact of Ith .mechanical air appl'cation of herbicides. However, there is one member Ihe e, or persons that w uld like to testify that need to get to another ~ee ing. So, we have a reed that we would move to the areaoflocal exp ri nce from air applica ion of herbicides and give each side five minu es for three speakers e ch. I guess there isn't any preference as to wlic, goes first, so I'll use the Chair's perogative, I guess, and askdthpersons who are spe king in favor of the application of air herbi id $ to speak on their ersonal experience. I . I I I I I ..f~ of posed Moratorium on y: Over concerne opened the public ial application of he Aerial Application cit~zens were eting to discuss rbicides in Jefferson erbatim transcript 0 the meeting as ing of the meeting. Spaces are left what was said. 10 rAtE 0-364 I 1 Minutes, Week of Novemb r 131 Page 6: i Transcript of Aerial Ap licatio er with hadtme fiftten I , Chairman Brown: Ok, so theniwe and Del . Ok, D n, y~u down at that end of the tabl~ a fully will have the mik pick u cast out there, it just pick~ u I , f. +'m going to read a pre ommi~si per, and it states enl~rg . on it. 1977iwe ....+- meaning Doris, m icke1jlCo p'Road, Sequim) and neikhb rcame up with news idgeTab ve us had been spra se t~ k II alders. , I detel ped chronic sinusit 78. IDu ing the following t wateIsh d came down with {a popu at on of about 20 pers I 1 End of my report. Do y u wa*t e to answer any que i hinklno per$on did!yo I I som~ p led fP; thelhl nt stra . Aild ours! an lacet ind <t>f cal+ed it wts anger i tor ~ve . T1(1e ke a!po Andiwh illf'uS ctor Tom Jay: ,I talked it 0 this meeting, people wh it's only going to take fine for Don Bliss: I'll be bri I'll leave it with the to say and don't have t Late one evening in arrived home (464C oil in the air. Ou forest land on the 2,4-D in a diesel b Within a few months cancer surgery in 1 other people on our this out of a local Chairman everyone The next the next Brown: No, I to relate thei one is Lammers one to speak. Mr Fred Lammers: I hav when my wife's legs swe spray where they spraye Discovery Road. They w yard about 15 or 20 fee in emergency for a few to put me in any other couldn't find out what allover the country an that could tell us what It was 2,4,5-T, Agent 0 And I've been to the do I never will get over i working, I swelled up 1 I went to the hospital. the last time, that's s to pack me out to the d all they gave me was Chairman Brown: Was th aerial application that Mr. Lammers: No. It w It was about a three-ei Chairman Brown: And th Mr. Lammers: Yes, the Chairman Brown: In 198 Mr. Lammers: No, that of Herbicides meet'ng (continued). Ken and we agreed t at for reasons of tings earlier, so w thought we'd, if minutes per side, K n thought it was will have Don Bliss then the Lammers ant to come up and 'f you would stand dspeak towards the audience, we hope- your voice, there. It doesn't broad- on the recorder. ared statement and xactly what I have wife and I -- smelled Diesel that the public ed that day with s which led to ree years, four 1 fatal) cancers, ns. Don. I think the urpose is to get 1 experiences at th's time. Thank you. say, John? Lammers! . Mr. Lammers is ctures here that we e taken in 1976 after we were poiso ed. We got into hway 800 feet of th frontage of the ght under the power line and into my hat's what happened afterward. I was there wasn't room nough in the hospital nd they didn't know what it was, we tuff they were usin , and we called And there as only one place -that was in the s ate of Maryland. other words. That's what we had. since and I'm stil going to the doctor. ancreas stopped wor ing, the liver stopped soned pup, and flat ened me out when n I came out of the hospital, that was a year ago, I went under and they had stayed in the hosp'tal 13 days and , they didn't have any medicine. I I S an!ae hapPfne I I S a $qu hts ftr s war 0 :untt r . I i~ I 1 1 I ! 1 I i~l application this time? gun. It was don that it pushed 0 a State road? Was this an '84, I guess, s mewhere in there. 1 0 ~~tt [':~ 3644 Minutes, Week of November 13 Page 7: now. Transcript continued -- 1 Chairman Brown: We're in '8 Mr. Lammers: It must have b I 1 Commissioner John Pitts: ~a associated with some appli9a I Mr. Lammers: Ya, of this 1a e Commissioner Pitts: Two o~ Mr. Lammers: Three times. I I Commissioner Pitts: Three It or was it aerial....? : I Mr. Lammers: No, it was tge Commissioner Pitts: The S1a Mr. Lammers: We had to gO:lt Mrs. Lammers: May this ye r Mr. Lammers: Ya. Mrs. Lammers: They sprayed We were allergic to it and Iw days later, I broke out wi tlh the flu. And it wasn't the body. I pretty near lost ~i said that it's either up o~ I Commissioner Pitts: This ~a 1 Commissioner Pitts: Where Id Mr. Lammers :We live on Dils we went to the ear and throla Chairman Brown: Out there 10 Mrsl. Lammers: 101. Twentvl- andrcrown Z in '76 they sp~a ove there and it wasn't fif the doctor, and I the health minptes they had that planel croE Z said we'll pull it abo t a half an hour after II us. We just went this way,1 wob led. And he wound up al andl' they was absolutely callie absolutely no antidote, notlh us Ito go home and do what 4e I ' Com~issioner Larry Denniso I: I Mrsl. Lammers: I went down t ~~e to have them checked. els~ and they sprayed over a did. five acres over ther~. the greenhouse, and all at 10 So I got concerned beca,u,se~h and he was stretched out fla wro g?" And he says that e rig t over there and he was just cannot get rid of that then. event that you w nt to the hospital . .' .? How many times? And it was each ime along the roadside once. Angeles to a doc there. didn't know it. e come home. Three and says I got all, the poison ad built up in his took him up to Dr. Collins and he nd he saved him. Mr. Lammers: Ya. Theone f there. Port Angeles af ed that one, too, us and it drifted e, Crown Z called epartment. Fifteen pter was down. own. And then to come and get ing else. We just spital, in emergency, tes, there was So they told doctor i Port Angeles? nd he sent me down t spray or nothing ope and Talbot arden. I was in the hoe this way. , in to the house nd I said "What's ere and it drifted him again. You o fief [a 36'45 ~'::t>,:W_ I I I I I Minutes, Week of Novem,b,r'r 3 Page 8:' I I I Transcript continued ~-I I I 1 Commissioner Pitts: fOr t1i Mrs. Lammers: Three tires. I l Commissioner Pitts: Tw~ce 1 Mrs. Lammers: '72,' I6~ '~O this year. And this iecflr II in Bremerton, I said o'\l1 sP1r be on the ground. An, tt wi We can't walk, we canltldo In on the place in '76 a.,d I '7: because we couldn't s~ay t e Chgairman Brown: OK, lahyt i experiences? I I I ' Mrs. Lammers: Did yo~ ~hO up and everything. I I Chairman Brown: Do yfulwa9t Mrs. Lammers: You cam leale here. Well, I'll ShO~ ~he I I I 1 I Chairman Brown: OK, T1hank y I 1 Tom Jay: I have a le~ttr fr into the record, if I I~Y' I is a Jefferson CountYIP op~r In May, 1976, Crcp Z Is unit apprOXimatell~ to uni t ~xt_en(!eg. a':l.1 ~ ne w Road to Old E~gl ou t wind at the time s- ---:ruQtst::tncrt y-rem~m~er It every time I drov$ ~n dr strong. Within terks t Approximately tW0 ~ee s aborted (at 4~ t~ P m n aborted alitte, rl'of kit year my best cowt rn d severe hoof malfrrl atio Either this ~ameJy~ar 0 line (which runs i arprqx This apPlicat,ion i 9f,~, P Z spray, as evervtp,in, soil. Much of tfuis p 0 , T I The Crown Z spray qtateJ forestry office. I Pur, m Angeles. Respectf~ll 646 Old Eaglemou*tlRO d - - I ~ Patricia Floyd (PUDl:I VO testimony from? " _II ~' Chairman Brown: Yes ,,1 that I I ~aE~tg~aa~a01~~u~trietl roc Commissioner Pitts: 'ou c , I Chairman Brown: O.K. tri~ I I I I I I then pretty near e them I said I got reand that helicp cause I'm not goi , just wobbles an to go over and s ausethe fumes we e y year except ld of Calhoun ter is going to through it again. e couldn't sleep with our son so bad. to rel your That's '76 my leg swelled these? just what photocopies Richardson and I' isa l-etter-from B er on the Eagle M 2,4,5-T (Agent 0 ile due North of m-the top of the _~ crossing .our dri t1le----m5ren-t-lt- wa s- ray lingering for of our place the s lders were all burn r, my wife, Pat, s Our cat also spo at the same time, , arren and started it This taneously neously that same e eloping a set number of are taking meeting son I raise the . erbicide exposur is that I have '74. the other side? VOL fAtE I J I Minutes, Week of November 1 , 1984 Page 9: Transcript continued --- Griffith Sl:nrt: I'm a farme t'v been a farmer e since time began, I guess. live been in the alley 2 years. On my before that, of course, I've been farmin for 41 years. Before at I was farming in Nebraska. I'm 58 years ld. I ve been using he icides for, I don't know, ever since they've be n on t e market. I gue s I[ve seen them all. I use them on my cows to kil flies . s far as aerial spraying is concerned, I've used 2 4,5-T, 2,4-D (th t's not aerial). The only experi~nce I've ha with erial with Round , I had a clear cut across from my house, a out 15 acres, and I hir a helicopter to come and spray that and spr y some tules out in t e farm with Roundup. Kind of an experimental thi g. My primary problem s with all the Maples, we cut up there, th re's a ot of Maple tres we didn't put any down on the stumps, t ey suc ered, you know h they sucker and grow. And the whole thing urned nto Maple. Well, it isn't Maple trees it turns into, it's M ple su kers. They're j st a big bush. You can slash and slash the and s ash them until y 're blue in the face and it doesn't kill th m. So we sprayed with undup. Roundup isn't cheap of course. It ost pr bably $500 for m terials. And it didn't kill the Maple, it d dn't k II the Alder, th e wasn't much Alder up there. It didn't do the job. s far as I'm con rned, it was $500 down the drain. but, the M ple is still there. I ver did use 2,4-D on it, simply because the h licopt r didn't come ba Down in the valley then we sprayed, put about quarts of Round around the tules, and all I had heard was it ouldn' kill anything - wouldn't kill the tulies. Tulies are very di ficult to kill. Anyway, we tried. And but we got a hundred percen kill, so as far as I'm oncerned, that was economically feasible. Part 0 the reason I~ was interested in this is that for agricultural no till. In other ~or s, if you spray it and reseed it without f6rt~en rips over the fi ld, it would be a lot more economically fea ible.And that is reall the reason I wanted to do it that way. Agricul ural m chinery today is ery expensive and a good tractor can cost you $50,00 and the time yo run it all day, and several days you try to break p them tulies an reseed the ground, why it's a not very, -- it' very ost prohibitive, et's put it that way. So, I wanted to exper ment w th the Roundup a it was successful. I haven't done anything fur her th n that in that: li e. It is my intention to do so. Part of my reasoT that 'm here tonight is that interest. That's the only experience fhat I' e had with aerial spraying. I do know a man, I have no testijOny fr m him, Howard Ca son (?) who ran the County's sprayer for 30 years nd he told me mo than once "I never had any problem with it. used ,4-D all the tim, every year." Of course, he retired and s forth I guess that s s the limit of my personal experience, I'v sued hem all and I ha allergies, all right. My allergies are wh t they call farmer's dis ase -- it has to do with spores from grain. So, th t I don't dare g around grain because if I do, then I swell all u and I can't breathe an this and that, and it's an allergy from th spore of the grain, as far as I know. I have mechanical allergies and I' e used it probably more than anybody around. When hey we e spraying oun in the helicopter up there, the helicopter wejt righ over us, we wer standing on the landing pad and it went rig t over us two or three 'mes there, and so we were right in the dri t. An I've used Round with my farm sprayer but I always wear a reSPiratOr. B t I have no, as r as smells are concerned, I'm used to all inds 0 smells. Cows r lly smell. I've even sat down with people a time 0 two and smelled yself. I guess that's the size of my testimony. .~:~::fi~ ;:~~~i~~~~tp t~rth~h:~~~~ Would it affect jus easter; Jeffe Jefferson County? ou've b en say to both. , may I ask for ed moratorium an son County or, wo ng just Jefferso point of clarification how it's worded? ld if affect western , but referring Chairman Brown: Ea tern Je ferson County. tvOl 1 fAtE (t - 364 Minutes, Week of No ember 1 , 1984 Page 10: Transcript continue Jennifer Zaccardo: My name Washington which is in west and I believe my co munity interdependence on he natu I'm a certified pub ic acco but I choose to live in by the forest indus ry and But, basi ally I the prespective of ny comm and I believe Port owns end and as a manufactur ng base the whole concept of the la something that is biyond ou what we might call rban sp just impacted Eastefferso is being affected b these way we choose to us our re more critical the i strumen land. Related dire tly to the last 20 to 30 y ars we' where we were just ort of an investment in th next c and more closely ag icultur Because of that ver thing that the Pacific Northwest the papers every da , all s is an additional me sure th that are facing us. And th has a significant, oth sho five years or longe or eve message to the enti e econo in my own water shei is 2 m of forest, in DNR 1 nd that certainly monitor a y spray on notice that I wo ld'do t operation between a encies. address things that were in address more closel the en federal landowners nd resi government and anyo e in a importance of a tax base of made here affect no just p base in forest exci e tax d lands, because theYjcome un such as you do. An these universities, direc, county concern basically i that a it's not just affec ing thi be done as far as c mmunica landowners and othe people has happened in the last fo talk about it, but hat's r because, basical~y, we're a or indirectly if'we live in all the impacts of decisi that we would encou age wis doing that we're, aC4ually a a resource that we ~hould m Bob Teagle: It's alpleasur to visit with you. Sorry, a little bit of str ss and is Jennifer Zaccardo an I'm from Beaver, rn Clallam County. It' a forest community, ould be very similar to here as far as on al resource base of a f rest community. ntant, I have a degree 'n forest management, a very small town. I'm directly impacted have clients that work here in this area ant to just address a c uple of things from nity which is dependent on the forest industry. classifies both as a di ect forest resource The first thing I'd l'ke to address is d use in our dwindling d base, which is control at this point. It's either by, awl or by wilderness de ignations such as County. The forest in ustry land base nd by major changes in ur economy and the ources. And as that is the case it is even s that we're allowed to use in managing he fact that in our are in particular in e really changed from a mining industry aking over, to where no we have to make Ope Where it's more ag icultural in general as the previous gentle an addressed. hat's been involved, I' really concerned s a whole, is facing, a you can read in rts of pressure. But e en more so, this t's being added, the la d management tasks t's why I think this pr posed moratorium t and long range impact, whether it be for shorter period of time, because it's a ic community, I feel. personally feel les from my home, I liv on eight acres is surrounded by ITT Ra onier. And, I ng in my area an~ I wou also put them at and I feel that ther 's excellent co- Most things I've heard tonight so far, the '70's and I feel ot er people may ire forest community as orking with the ential people. I think lso as county timber county, we have to recognize the the forest industry. D cisions that are ivate land, which or co se produces tax llars, but even just as uch the public er other immediate and her public pressures, ollars generate money f our schools, our and forest excise tax b ses, too. But my y decision that you mak is far reaching, county. I think that e things that can ing between industry us s, small timber that are affected, I thi k a lot of that r years that I have see. I've heard people ally going to cause a w king together, lrelying on this resou e. And directly this area. And, I think e have to address n like this, that most i formed would be use instead of no use, ecause if we're vocating mismanagment 0 no management of nage, to work for us. to be able to come fro the State of Oregon t has to be under the co ditions that cause train and emotionalism. But I compliment lVOl ,.".. 1 0 i'ACE tf348 Minutes, Week of No ember 13, 1984 Page 11: Transcript continue Bob Teagle (continu d): . the people here tonight, a 1 of the people ere ecause you re concerned, you want to know abo t what's happening and to learn mo~e afout what's going on. I know th t how I got acquainted with the majority 0 you has been either you coming to Crown Zellerbach Office for firewood permits or my knocking on your oor to inform you that some forest pr ctice is going on adjacent to y ur property. And that principle of c~ntacting you has been a very pl asurable experience 100 percent of the ' ime. I visited with the Lammer and share their concern for their p rsonal problems and recognize y ur problems and your grief. I thin! we've broken new ground in rec gnizing those, moving back from pe ples property line and sensitiv areas from aerial application with aL ernative practices. I've had~t e pleasure of and ~~~~~~t~~n~~~ ~:~~~ ui:~ i~~e~;o~n~~~~~~b;~~r. fi!~~ {nY~~~~' f~~t;~~s years, we've spraye less than 25% of our ownership at one time. Some of it a very small ercentage, we sprayed twice. W 've also developed a lot of new, and I think very responsible techniqu s for recognizing your concern. And, being very realistic and this The property lines bein published, backing away from s reams an doing manual contact. Many of you here have worked for me, for Mike Stamon doing manual applic tion in sensitive areas. We're growing an excellent crop of trees. I t ink the forest here on the Peni sula, you can be very proud of it. hey're going to be here regardl ss of Crown Zeller- bach's part in the ommuni~y. Those trees are here and planted, and nurtured and they'r going to be here to back the r venues, the work- horse of this commu ity, for as long as you all can ake care of it. I know that I'm rea ly pro:ud of what we've done. W developed the neigh- borhood contact wit you, ~nd we have, I think, gon out of our way to sample or monito our a~rial spraying. We've ta en water samples and we've responded to your inquiries and altered p actices. We've also invited you tOicome o~t and watch our applicat'on. We've taken you on bus trip,s" an some P, f you I know have come, and personally v,iewed our plans ahead of ime and afterwards. We feel th t there's a story of good forest mana'ement ~here to be told. And we're not all adamant about it's this way'or no way. It's really, I thin, a pioneer, this sensitive forest pr cticesi,as a description. I did a little bit of figuring and the, pe ple in: Port Townsend and Jeffer on County, eastern Jefferson County, us the normal amount or a small a ount of garden and lawn care weed and eed that in a year's time you u e ~ a pound a year of weed and feed. yom can use as much as the forest ndustry uses here in Jefferson County 1 per yehr average. And the fore t industry I know is probably the mos visibiJ.e one because you see ou hillsides and come out on our properti s during hunting season and ber y picking season. The green lawns, th golf courses and some of Mr. Sort's properties are also being supp ied wi~h these herbicides. And I certainly recommend everyone who uses a y chemicals absolutely . T e rules and regulations are there for the p rpose of being followed. OUr c operation with the Department of Natur 1 Resources, the committee for the rules and regulations of herbicide appLic tion they've been very instrume tal in promotion of sound, and pursu ng forest practicies in describ g and monitoring what's going on in the forest. Thirty years ago I worked for Weyer- hauser in Grays Har,or County, where I grew up, in student group, planting trees in a eas that had been sprayed with ,4,5-T, which I've heard tonight calle Agent: Orange. I did not, I'm 00 old to be a Viet Nam veteran, butAg nt Orange is a mixture of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T without any idlution -- ~t' concentrated and mixed with tw herbicides together and sprayed, in con entrat~on, in the jungles of Vi t Nam to defoliate areas for fire zone~ and safety zones, and it was r peatedly sprayed, day after day in the jungles. This should no way b construed to be the 2,4,5-T that weibanned here in 1978 that was mi ed with 9~ gallons of water or diese, 1 i,l car~ier and used as a prescr'ption on the forests. You often hear it u ed in t~ manner, but it is a d'fferent chemical. It's only half of w at was, used in Viet Nam. Of co rse, the last of 2,4,5-T was used in '78. I appreciate the opportun'ty and thank you for this time. If ,here's' any questions, I'd be ha py to answer them, or try. Yes. ~VOL 10 MGt ., 03 49 (Unidentified man): at are you currently using? Minutes', Week of Novem er 13, 1984 Page 12: Transcript continued - Bob Teagle: 2,4-D, ndup are the primary (Same unidentified man): Is Roundup a chemical? Bob Teagle: It's a dttferent chemical. There are eople here to address that. We have people here from the chemical compan'es (Unidentified man.): Y,f'U want to explain how the me ting is set up please. There are people here ho don't understand. Chairman Brown: ,The i ea was that we posed three q estions to be answered tonight. Gave each th~ proponent and the opponent f aerial herbicide spraying a chance to a~dress those three questions, ddress us. Then at the end of this wetv'ill have the opportunity to estion if we have further questions of tpese people about the informa ion they give tonight. Jhe only chance for any participation is going to b to the opponent and the proponent of tpe moratorium. And whoever t ey chose as their representative to spea~ on these three questions. e'll only be hearing those people who they have asked to speak on their ehalf. .1 Commissioner Pitts: Jpst want to say that this isn't a public hearing. This is a public meetipg for us to gather informati . Chairman Brown: ,Thisbormat was agreed upon by the ropo,nents of the petition and also by the industry. They ~e all ma e aware of how we were going to do it an~ the questions which were go' g to be asked so they could get persons I they felt best qualified to t their position forward on, that P", artiC.,'lar question. Do you have a questions now? (Unidentified woman): In reference to time, I thou ~t it was going to be titteen minutes. or each side, and I noticed at the last one spoke for 20 minutes for the industry side. If you are going to run a tight agenda, I think that Chairman Brown: well'~I think that the amount of t' e that the other side,',L:;I;,-' changes a e probably my fault . But I think we don't want to lose' ight of the fact that w y we re here. We're here for us to gather 'nformation and I think that 'f the speakers say anything that we feel .is something we want to have owledge of when we're considering thisl that maybe I will allow more time. Okay, that takes care of the local experience, which we moved own to because the people had to go to aribther meeting and we decided e would do that. We then will move backl-up to question one, which is the physical impact of the mechanics of ae~ial application of herbicid s John did I understand., here was a problem and the p ople to speak for the industry are not h, re and ...... Commissioner Pitts: I did agree that that person w'll be allowed to speak at the end of tq next meeting. do so at the next meet'ng? ' Commissioner Pitts: Well, it's going but it that's your preference and the meeting and exten. d the. I second meeting speak cause I'm not th~ Chairman. .1 Chairman Brown: I thihk that we all have to keep i mind what purpose we're here tor in thes~ meetings and its not our in ent to short change anybody. One side or he other. It's just to let s get a feel for what we need to know t come to some kind of conclu ion to deal with this petition. Maybe ome people thought this was big deal. Let me ask from sitttng in this seat right here there i alot of information we need to know to dea with this petition because 't can have alot of impact either way a d we want to make sure that e have alot of infor- mation that we need to know to make a decision and hat's the whole purpose of the meeting. Now, I hope that you under tand why we're doing didn't get to testify tonight to really jam that second session other side, w 'll shorten this to include th's, but I shouldn't _ VOl 10 rAtf EO 3G5O Chairman Brown (continued): this. So, w th that w will move on to let the proponents of the five yea morat rium have their speeches here. We'll hear from that person and th n we'l deal wit the industry side at our next meeting. Tom Jay: First I'd just like to t1ke two take it off my time. 'I'll give yot some it to about 1,450 and there are so e more from other people who. couldn't sp ak ton agenda was arranged, it was a prob em, bu there. And then I have a couple 0 short make. I think it may be of intere t to t Court today upheld the 9th Distric Court the forest service to 'make a worse case d herbicides in National Forests. Sit's to go, and the Supr me Court said he low that. So, T think hat's importan infor The second thing is I don't know e*actly Last Friday, our at orney, Dave Brfcklund the County Prosecut r. And Mr. Rarmond t 13th of September h sent the Commissione outlined your legal authority regarding t in general and our roposed moratoiium in that letter that yo~ do have the a thorit the aerial application of herbicids, so the purpose of prot~cting the publ cheal you have this authority. The lett~r,from our attorney, w,as s nt, to you on stptembe and we just want cl rification as 0 what why we didn't know bout it. If jrst som could let us know a out that, that would The topic I want to talk about tonight is mechanics of aerial spraying. AndlI'm no not a pilot, not an engineer, but what I quite a bit o~ the xisting litera1ure an which I will quote o you tonight, trying dynamics of a e., rial p~,ay, and at tie end the data gaps that ~xist. The first that I wabt ,to talk abou' is, t I think throughout this talk I wil be ta king abou Glycosate ('n is-not a~ailable to t e publ' c at this cover that. The ch mical composit on of ,4-D will by Dr. Ruth Shearer when we do the toxico ogy sessi to note to you toni ht that 2,4-D oes co tain at 1 of dioxin and. that th,',ese forms ofldioxin, although the TCDD version of dioxin, have n~t been studied t, forms that require u~ther study. The second point I ant to make is that t e aerial plication streI}gth of "D" from the lab lis four to s x time stronger than the agricu:Utural strength. So. in ot er words when hey ta e this st ff up in the ai~, they kick it up by factor of six That's one of e reasons the Il)ora- torium didn't. addre s .....thea,gricult'ral ',....us. Number tone, we didn't neel that drift was a bi ~actor in agr cultur 1 use. A number two, the strength of aerial pplications oflherbic'des are v y strong. Commissioner Pitts: You said you ~re com aring aer' 1 application with agricultpral u e, some agricuttural se is aer' lly applied so Minutes, Week of November 13, 1984 Page 13: Transcript continued ~- Tom Jay: Right. I m talking abou low to the grpund. I also want to agent. For instanc ,4 ounces per field reduced yield in that field two cuttings.l The eason they did gave it the least a ount of surfac into. They cut thetfield, they sp in that field, byth ity-four perce , . . VOl the; f stress acre s by thi that w area ayed i tfor minutes, nd I hope you don't ore petit'ons. That, brings here are some more letters ght becau e of the way the there's ome more letters one shor announcement to e Commiss'oners. The Supreme of Appeal decision to require terminati n for the use of one as fa as it's going r courrtw s right in requiring ation for you people to have. ow to beg'n about this one. spoke wi h John Raymond, ld our. at orney that on the sathre -page letter which e ~egulat'on of forest practices particula. He told you in to enact a moratorium on ong as yo do so clearly for h. There is not doubt that Mr. Raymo d, according to 13th. S we were confused had happe ed to the letter, time duri g the meeting you e a good ing. ical, some of the exper about this, I'm ave done 's I have researched I've unc ered some studies to show y how some of the want to alk about some of ion of the herbicide. 2,4-D. Data on time, so I don't e covered in detail . But, I did want ast three forms ot as lethal as oroughly and are with his tractor is a very powerful alfalfa stubble cent for the next ed to see if they t material to get ill reduced yields cuttings. comi that 2,4- rayed on ty-four p s they wa or the pl , and it he next t o rAGE i;' 03651 Transcript I Commissioner Pitts: Was that nor~al c~nc ntration? Tom Jay: That was gricultural uLe. $ow soybeans sprayed wi hl/l0th of arpoun~ p to 85 percent. Tha 's just by war of ~ay potent stuff. The ormal carrierp as ~as usually diesel or ckrr..entlY I thifk qUtte agent in water. SOl if it's spray d, it's The usual form of 2,4-. D in forest praclic the esterforms of 2,4-D are noted by a 1 volati~ity. Some f rms of the es er a e as lowlvolatile est rs,' but these estets In one study by two people named, by t,o Suther~and (*), the'rpaperwas c lledlVo and Sa~ts of 2,4-D, it showed tha undrr ester, !wh~ch ~s thel9w volatile stert 0 is equ.lly as volatile as the met yl a~d so called high volatile esters~ he c~nd were bAsically the sam.e condition that w try wa~ts to use th agent. Dow Ch~mical, in a study called C ntro li nized this fact, th tlow volati rest rs so called high vola ile esters. hey ai of 2,4tD volatizes uch more than the -b so, in I other words, when you hear thisllo thing. Under certa'n conditions n fact, its jutt as vOlatil~.. The main place ~he start 0 happen, th se 2,4-D estets art h is, wheT',..', they're spr ye'.,d, they evaporati an ae~osol and the float in thel air he Chemic~l Company re orted in Cont olli g in. g hetbicide floats l, ike a sma aeroto pickediup in the fa ling rain." ow, f a label violation. It's in the wf' ter. A study ~,hOWS that th ,stuff volati, izeslan wpn't ~ecome a non- erosol, until it it P to the'lground. A C na,dian study ,hows th 2,4-D ~ut of the at osphere. In fther wo fact t*at after Spr~Ying there wi' 1 be a come d~wn in the ra n quite long fter th Anothet study callel Residues and Fate of En,viro~ment, they hrve oun case~ w,ere in rain falling 2 t 5 weeks after spr~yi indicat., ion of high ol,atility an,dl the fac in the lair shed., i I Another study, quot'ng from anothlr st$dy volatile and can va orize right ftom t~e So, inlother words, you've got twt shot(:s got th~ helicopter oving thr, ough the air then, and the stuff that does hit the f' ro So you1ve got two sots at vOlatitizat!on Hee anU Sutherland*, a"gain, and tf' e st~dy quoted ab ve stated that in some clses there wa a 90 percent losslof agent in ten hour period after ~praYing. , I Okay, tthe point her is that 2,4-; est~rs hi.,ghlyJ.1volatile and they contamin te o;r spraye~. And I wan to quote som stu ie is'nt ~ question, i '$ a fact. ~en y u e~ters IOf 2,4-D, vo atilization o~curst 1 1 *Conta~t Tom Jay fo correct name and~or spellings , I I ' , I I ! to frAC,,- Minutes, Week of No ember 13, 198 Page 14: VOL another r acre re ng that t been expl a few spr usually i s use is esearcher uphemisti re also h esearcher atilizati erta~n co e of the utyl este tions for have whe tudy showed that uced yeilds by 50 is stuff is very ined tonight,' is yers emulsify the diesel or wciter. n esterform. Now for their hi,gh ally referred to ghly volatile. names Hee(*) and n of Various Esters ~tions t e enoct~ e ow volatile esters, s, which are 'the that experiment the forest indus- g Drift 0 Herbicides recog- can e ,as'l vo at~ e as the that the iso-octyl ester tyl ester in larger drops volatile ester it's a dicey under qui e a few conditions e the dri t problems really ghly vola ile, so what happens to the ai and they become . L.E. W rren of the Dow rift of H rbicides that: "drift- an w~ t a out until ou read t e label, that's d the che ical company's own will not unvolatilizes, cked up b the water and carried train pe iodically washes ds, they" e documented the ime perio and 2,4-Dwill re has be n a spray period. Phenoxy H este g. That' thtat th' "ester fo mulations,are very and surfa e after spraying." t volitil'zation. You've shed, the stuff volatilizing nd, that lso volatilizes. of all so ir sheds that sho pray the ts are, in fact, henever they are volatilization tuff, when you spray Minute , Week of No e ber 13, 198 Page 1 : Tom Jay (Continued): The various herbicide is lost t olatiliza~i researcher who work or the Fo~e ~~'..~k~~~ ;~d ~~;:~~~~i s~~~~h~~v~~ the agent was lost . n the air. IA that 2,4-D esters w r basically Canadians Associate ommittee ~o 60 percent of aeriall applied h~r the Dow researcher in this stud~, pO."ints out ,that sp r~y droplets ~f humidity of 50 perc n disappea~ the herbicide in th s drops wi~l not fallout until i ked up in If guy. The wind in his test was qn winds and lower hum d' ties will Ie microns. He also s 0 ed that, i!n from a plane or fro helicopt~r to shatter and that creases vdl air. So you might in a situ~t of the agent going into the ~i if youtre higher th n seven fee~ ' bove th...,., e t.opograPhY arOUid here, you ik ow t seven feet above th round -- th y've study shows that 50 p rcent of t~ stu than seven feet. I So what this means ~s that more It an h estimate, more than I h lf of the i2 4-D and that for those ~p ayed highelr than the volatilization fa tor would Ip obab that we ought to no e here is thla wea inherent volatility 0 these herlb cide . on prop wash to sho hat, what ~ is to send the stuf p, does iti volatility by shatt r'ng the drop on that so nobody k 0 s, we may h And those are the k n of questilo the time to study. H w does thiis are so gross that t 're basica~ there's a high vola ity risk. I , i ere' to the! studies shb n. I'm goli ine "Week is r thicikeni!n ns. Transcript continue Now, the industry a agents. But numero trolling volatiliza Atkinson* in the ma that the use of pol for certain applica The second test, a an average of all p 41 percent of their off, spraying the s So that dovetails w showed. Sixty perc showed that what th target arrival up t the stuff into the show that it's a di the stuff just as v Tqe thing I want to cultural areas and, f a much chancier Sit1a got a whole lot of ,t *Contact Tom Jay fo vate test ib es tested ~. ray on tar~ f, and onl[y the 60 pelr of the sd.1 hickening ~ 8 percent. I osphere., ~, thing. D~ tile. ' int out isi r the mostl i ion becaus~ er factorsi I , nam~ , ,HIM I ...".'ijiI~ I we want 0 know h w much , Norris, who is a forest e, noted hat 60 t 75 percent the groun when sp ayed. d that 20 to 80 pe cent of er named ahemeyer reported cause of heir hig volatility. ironmenta Quality say that esn't rea h the gr undo Warren, ntrollinglDrift of Herbicides, m~crons ~n a~r w t re at~ve than a s ~en foot drop, and ery small aerosols and ~ill r in. This is ache ical industry .p.h. He st tes that higher te larger dr plets th n the 120 tu y, if you droppin stuff ai speeds c se thes droplets y, sends mor of it i to the you migh have 90 to 80 percent ou have a fast fly ng plane, ground. en you think about helicopte s are no staying to be hi ere An yet that ill disap ear if y u're higher conserv tive ~es Wi,ll olatilize ve the round, The oth r thing an exac rbate the done an studies 'copter 'rop ~ash 't incre se 'es have been done latile ituation. morator um to take studies so far pt for e know 1S to aId thickening ~ffecti1e ~n con- ies. Y tes and Number , report t only lightly Chemical I mpany s arrived, ','I" re flyi ther words, guys w nt of it s hitti age that e Canad ing into e air s di was they ncrease 'r still lo.'ng 32 p e studies, Ii e Yates t inds of ct ditions ere don tions, terrai 'll exp olat tha g to ienc age y questio ey are no te two st Volume 26 reduce dr Nel en t t. 41 p ent f wa ents So w d so fere hat art, you o co spelli~gs 10 ~tE r tl3653 ," , , owed that g only re taking g the ground. an study ed. Tests the average rcent of and Atkinson*, can make for agri- ou're in , you've ain later. , I I I Mtnutes, Week of No~e ber 13, 198 Page 16: I I . I TJ;'anscript continuef Tom Jay (continued) I: The point Ii significantly decre~s volatilit,y of a product and no~ he applic~t arrival in the airsh d and the IW be with the stuff, ~e .ause of tHe going to hav drift6"t 's going It of it is goi g to gp p, on the la I I I Okay, the la t majO! oint I watit vO'.,latility, he VOl,' t'lity, ,th,atl', is another f ctor, , a ically this drift could e caus d by winds ~r th, ere was a orestre earcher, najm Forest Servi e, and'1h conducte~ insecticides, which i , he was pr was being sp ayed ir estern mo~n ain to d, iscuss m thodol?g , you can I~ ad t glad to giVe~YOU a 90 y of it. Bft, I he says, "Th possiP-i ity of drilfI occ appears to b cons HIe ably g,reatl,er tha plots in for sts ar~. Bually lOdafed 0 and the spra is ap?l'ed during It e fi SU,Ch, conditi ns, a !e eorologic~l ,phen of names, co d air ~r inage, mo~n ain oCcurs." No, I'd t-i e to brie~l exp night and ea ly morpig the mou~t in t the day brea s, the~e cold air ~a ses, move down th vallev ides, movel own They flow li e a liqu'd above t~e cano the' forest. An int~r sting sidel oint any studies ~'s to wha clear cutlt ng d kn., ow. that Cl, ar cut,~i g incre as el,s extr occur on sit. We"\<n w that clela cut forested are s WhcfIt that does It" the is another w oe is~u that ougHt to b ie, ides. Nob d knof' s what air sl,h d dy Big data gap II 0 e the plac~ ere. I Okay, now wh Morr~n noted, hel would also c y th~ 'nsecticid~s on mountain valley sides to tlh val f I ' ' o our sensi e ar~a. For exajm,le m pastures, ag ultura land and 10 her drift may be e en gre ter becausle the droplets to 'n reas~ pray cove~a e an saying these c ld aLr drainage ~i ds t hypothesis, h y ta~e the stuff la d mo more sensiti e Ok~y he set o~t to p methodology, b sicatl , putting 10 t ca seeing how m c , ust~n statisti~a tec Okay, Morrin emon t ated his '~,IY othe demonstrated ift ~y cold air ~olntai what his stu showed as that cql air of spray, so imesl e ual to th~ moun area, out of e ar~1 a This, teslt show pesticide re sed y aircraft ~a rec target area~ orri' * estimatds were in the targe , 5,',5 te cent of tHe stuf which leaves u 21. p rcent of tlh stu 79 percent 0 he s u f is not ~c ount was either i rcep e in the fqr st c carried as d t outs'de the arsa bein volatility, we kl 0 have th~s new which can mo the he bicide or It e pe what MQrrin* comm~n ed, he saVd Oka a~rially app d pest'cides, wh~t ough *,Contact To, ay f~r correct n1m I , I I I I I voW I II II ickening s re this Now r the applied that I want be t, As ses leys. of ne We that n dynamics herb- ute /0 10 rACE fO 365 Minutes, Week Page 17: f November 13, 1 84 I I ! Tom Jay (conti ued): Ito rove sm 'ke and du t each specific ite to iidentify he col a r reason he says this is: because he equipm n is done with i insenslitive to 'inds 1 ss t study shows th t thes~ low velo ,ity wi11lds a can carry the tuffot1t of the rea., $0, i area, if you a e going to use srlray, tlen w to Morrin*, is that on the mornlng, at th dust distribut rs or s,moke bomb~ out t m velocity cold ir rlrailnage wind~ and k ow a point. The ther point is th~t curr nt County, and I nowtht..,IS off the~l!top of my study on my 0 prope~ty years Igo, th a six to seven m les pe~ hour. A d you no you live aroun here, ithe weath r is q it have small gus s of wilnd happenng at ny the point. Thes cold a!ir draina 'e wind w work and nobod has ddne studie ' as to th are. So, even without volatiliy we'v g of these cold air draijnage wind:. The ot that when these guys are ,spraYilg, how ve be, and I don't doubt !their sin ereity or stuff all on the ground, but wh It they re it might h a,ve rained ~,or two w e~kS' an, t get this stuff out. ~hey've go bud b rs Alder they've got to go past be ause t e and it's a fine line. ! They're oing t b the place where coldaijr drainag~,. winds mi think of. And that m~y be the ~actor ha landowners property. jThat 's no even ,on a clear day and it' pretty war, you' e g There's a doubl ed e Ito it. ' I I , r !fifteen m ,nutes ell, ~ did have Isome m sinpe,1 ,if you w ,uld be ute tjo do this! , I , Transcript con inued Chairman Brown: Tom Jay: Okay, fish, I figured another five mi Chairman Brown: I , , I h~ngs I wan ,ed to tqat Morrin. point e f ushed out 0 seaso lic~t~o, ns. , Allllthese ar qry that a~en't c d t em out, for st res eks. !That' s on. point rai, ages might e gett ng ex eqted. Est rs in ab of t,ti,e things hat ca~se H f ctor of the water. A Nor hwest have een do e. to he water if lit's b in at he.pH facto of al t tOI f~nd out, b t nobo y I Okay, now about the fish. The ignifi research was the Pu b]o Chemica! Compa state on the la el th~t 2,4-D 1 w vola levels. Now wh t t at: means is~the B. .7 parts per millio ~,illed 32 ',ercent of of Coho spawned, 20 percent of ink sp wn trout . Okay, ~hat's .7 'arts p r culation, I'm not a chemist, bu. what ha million is one rop iri 250 gall ,'ns . T at is. It's a strong ag~nt. It's la stro g ~:::::::i::mt::ygf~:1,!,:::e::.,:,:::~h:::,' r:r s i i ~VGL I 10 f~Cf Tom Jay: The 1 an interesting that 2,4-D can months after ap flying over tha the rains flush out of these cr based on local much longer tha rapidly, but on rapidly is the in water in the stuff's going i we don't know w It would be eas the stuff. tests b drainag that m an 2 m. e preci you're at is r ite, yo the low at to d nd aver h ad beca e age win Ihat in npredic mente h nobod area an drift h factor onsider eir att agains might . on the ement his that y an u . i i are per in his dry str s that in for rs were t this ronic e tory co , are. spraying hing th e peopl ster ma hery st ckeye f and 10 lion. omes ou s how pow nt. An s stuff t came out of my · who make 2,4 D kill fish at field dy showed t at ngerlings, 30 percent percent of r inbow did a little cal- to, one pa t per rful this stu f on of the t you've got to - 365 Minutes, Week of No ember 13, 1',84 Page 18: I II Ii Tom Jay (continued): Icertain e~zymes. even been identifie ~et. the ,nzyme Pseudomona. ONe of t~e things hat if of the low, baselin ~hings tha ought to go to the site a d !do tests 0 see soil. Because if P eqdomona is Inotpr in that soil for ye r$~ Up to :ix mon in forest soils is n :important Ithing hasn't been done. ow often do s Pseu Does it prefer one it'e over an ther? sprays with no stud~s to how last it stuff is, basically tqe point I Iwant t to give us a chance tq fill the !e data so little dta about hdw this stff beh We don't have any r all air shed Idata. from all the studie you can redid, it inventory of local atiers, avai~abilit are a, II questions ttati, we don't 'Iknow a no studies availabl . I The moraorium a data base, and i ~e're goin to ha five years and have a kind of d ta bas in a specific situa ion, we wil I know I , Commissioner Pitts: Question I, hO~, ght we w~:re goi y , I I don't 'now il~ ha e th lir c a the en of ire nex I' econ~m., ics 0 aerial ave 1:0 minU]eS to sp eer. II My na ,e is Mic pic iefores ation, I ref ~estat'on work. m on~erial spraying d tO~~he su ject of fol bwing: 1) the ntro I,' 2) a, ternati v are drivin the tim I Transcript Chairman Brown: I of the meeting. Ok of the moratorium, to that question at is, the w,ill The next item which industry. Each sid speak first? Michael Ewing: I'll vblun Secretary-Treasurer I ofl Oly cooperative specializing i in support of the m9ratori My comments will beldi~ect practices; specificrlly, th of herbicides vs. mrnu~l c 3) the economic for es~ tha the Northwest. ' In any economic ana and benefits associ of costs and benefi The first two, dire costs and benefits. an agency or busine as external and are The direct costs of like the helicopter istration, labor an monitoring, and law , ysp..s i ted wi s.: Th se a t and . ndir Ict, ma I tpese two re wha s. ~ Th ir t ,Iird pa thbse ffec ~ng in an: aer'al h ~bicid coptra t th I purch lab c sts br wat I I. eniEorc ment lif req , , I I The enzymes hat's in the anybody' al to happe is f Pseudo ona sent in he hs at le st. omona oc Nobody k is metat make is gaps. W ves in 0 the vola s proved of Pseu ything a ives us e wise u , we can hat we'r oing is roved er g to hav on be ce to pr sen meeting. lasses 1 Indirect costs woul ihclu e it ~s sucas staf of environmental do um~nts, att~pdance at publi and legal costs ass ci~ted with Illawsui s. r costs for ings and ap eparation ls, Third party costs w uld be damage; loss of wildli~e s pollination; loss of f~sh or helicopter overs ray; a tamination of surfa e and the real cost of an ae~ial I such ~hings as crop, ch a I gameb'rds; los ue t I strea contami d ef ~cts 0 human halt roun I water supplies. I spra11 progr m, a dol ar rd, and liv ees and sub by drift, from drift ,order to de 'ount must b ~ VOL 10 tA Michael Ewing (contin~ed): att~ib~ted to each : , The benefits of conife'r release Ifrof a rial spr yin be increased timber ylields. Ho~evelr, . n a critical Forest Service and Bur,eau of Lanrd Mianagement pu ou General Accounting Office, they Ifou,nd ~hat the wo have field data to support thei-r1 cllaim and in ddi clear what role conifelr release Ipla~s n the ov ral relationship within a ~orest ecqsys~em I I i I I In other words, there :was 1) no Iprel-tr growth to show that rellease was ineeoed measurement of conifer! growth tol co~fi were achieved and to provide inclrem!ent estimate, 3) it was no~ clear, ~had ev post treatment data, what the ulltimp.te would be. Just how neicessary isl itl? I " I i So what about the relative costslofl ma to the timber manager, would be tine Ilab tration and post-treatment inspelctibn ications were met. Inoirect and third ~ :'! I , I. In the last five years', I have bleenl in slashing in Jefferson County. the ~ve $60 per acre. This co~pares to 11$30:6. pe $30 includes the chemilcals and ~eli, op are at least .:;600 acre!S to spraYI. ~ut no third party costs w,ith manuall coptr of manual control, bes!ides its cpstls, units tha, t I have donel' resproutlingl ha and on other units it p.as not belen ~ p Resources has found th~t cuttingl betwe can reduce resprouting dramaticaillyl; w the best. i I . i 1 I' : I More research needs to! be done. I re~ a der is t v It also likes wetter sites than ~ougla Fir. sit age of alder when cut.;! time of Ylearl th t unit w s 1 all factors that need to be rese~rched in order to environmentally sound ~ays of marag~ng alder. A report done in 1981 by the EP~ co~cl ded the oll of herbicide treatmenti, ,were incrleasll,' ng while thJ cos treatment were fallingl. They fel'lt tha the two app verge in a few years, 2) conifer da~ag seems 0 ly with inexperienced cre~s involvep ip s udies an actual practice, 3) th, a.,t "releasl,e sl:10c!" occurs and manual treatments ~s does relsprput' ng of un 4) safety of workers lis acceptablle whe the pro and workers are traineCl in the s~fel us of brus is a sufficient labor ,supply to po ~he work, pa I I I The report concluded that manual! trbat ents hav 1) conifer damage is r~duced (Nolte: I co ifer dam burn and also from deaCl hardwoodls f~ll' ng on co no one there to guide their falll. ~he e are tw spraying. 2) the treatment is 6elect've and f fewer environmental cop.straints,1 4)1 it may be c treatments at only a fractional lincrea e, in cos cial employment benefl~s. I I I I What other alternativel managemen~ spen forests? 1) A study p.one in Inp.ia, pr Regeneration of forest: stands isl of~en weeds. As the intensi~y of fell~ngl in able for weeds increas~s. By do~ngl se they reduced the amount: of weeds!,t~us eliminating the needfbr weed co~trol. , I I November 13, 1184 I I I I Minutes, Week of Page 19: I Transcrtpt continued~- .VOL I in t tf I .. '-"'w~~, atment m 2) ther m that t 1 growth n with t net effe ual cont r contra o insure party co olved in age cont acre fo er contr like I l. Anot s that 0 been a oblem. n July th the abo act ae ct, aid er re rob he th nth rios exi duced tih hindered are supposed 0 report of the .S. by the U.S. gencies did no ion, it was no brush-conifer ement of conif r no post-treat ent eatment object'ves to use in ben fits cessary pre an a release tre tment The direct co ts ontract admini - contract spec'f- e eliminated. t 400 acres of cost has been tal spraying. rovided that learlier, there ~o, mmon cri ticis routing. In em on some uni lepartment of N Ind September 1 f August bein alder bout This here are y shade toler e, aspect, sl [ged. These a ind better, mo ing: 1) the s of manual b aches would c have occurre ot a problem 'n both herbicid brush and ha ~uipment is us equipment, 5) arly in rural dwoods, d here areas. distinct adv ntages. n occur from hemical s since there .s lems with aer'al e 3) there ar d with thinni g 5) it has be efi- h which to ma age owing results; mpetition wit ount of light avail- lter-wood cut ling survival d biomass in , and learcut I I I 1984 I . , Minutes, Week of Nov Page 20: Tra~script continued , Mic.ael Ewing (contied): are~s iwas ecq..ve cut area; and 4.4 times &r~ter sel- our time han in a I I ~ages as wel]. B eseeding wtt~gen and rl-urisery There are other adva enc~urage nat~rally red'l,lce tree planting prewaration costs. leaving tically expenses you This would uce site I ,I 2) iWhat about the v lue of alder? In of Forestry December ~983, the dUbhors of an acre oftimbernder six di~fere ili*ing.. The most p fitable s~sqem ( Fir i stand commercial I ; thinned ~nd fer Thelseond most profi 'ble system C'PNW to ~awlog size in 28 ,ears and ~ol!1owe butinot fertilized i la 45 year Irdtati be ~qually profitablif any of Ithe fo an ~ncrease in the rl interesy rjate, Ald~r, 3) an increas iin the pr~ce of dec~ease in tQe time ,equired t9 grow : Ii: , . I I Ald~r fertilization dresses tlte Iprob rot~tions of mono-'cul' lure Dougl~s IFir. readily available to ' ,ther tree~. ' It fertilizers which ha . . Idrastic aff;ects I . I . id.,er include lits . If or furn~ tUfre . our al net worth nd fert- glas ar rotation. er grown twice m wo ld ed: 1) rice of 4) a size. a recent y in the figured ut he presen t system of thinning NW = $62 lac e) was Do ilized t ice in a 45 y $578/ac e) as Red Al by Doug as ir thinne n. The ed Ider syst lowing c ndi ions chan 2) an in rea e in the itrogen ert'lizer, an lder to ini um sawlog em of so Alder p lso elim on fish. pletion d e to successive itrogen i a form s the nee for Nitrogen Oth~r advantages of as c+onstruction lumb rotj se as fi It is al and oot i Another way to' reduc rat~er than just Dou shade toleran~ than eff~cts of brush and not:as susceptable help reduce the cost , Ireforestat1idn co ts would 'as Fir. Red Ced r and We tiglas Fir.1 Ithey are not cirdwoods ~hading them out I Ideer browsi'ng t e way Do 'of animal Icdntro . , , I ' 'Jgement i~ dhat ~ip contr~c~s wi artain stdcking ntages to ItHis a :qined locail iempl · icrews wotfl~ ins .t;ransient Ic~ews . , ' ttt. stands more to t e ock is This would b grow mi Hemlock sceptable stern Hem Fir is. Another system for m ent~ring intostewar ies :are insured of a numoer of years. Ad to l.and owner,' 2) su res~onsibility. Loc andlinterest. Unlik done quickly and get Las~ of all, I would are I driving the timb 1) Competition from by 4he Canadian gove 2) IGrowing competit' hasiclosed western c andieastern markets. fre~ght rates .that h even to Montana. f stewar h local evel at e 1) red yment, 3 re good hose maj compan- costs I , I , i~ke to br~ef,ly d I icompanie~ qut 0' , ' I I Imporits , I . , , fo ces that scribe t the Nor s bsidized are Ii from CaJadian 'terns out lof! man ',]his tren4 has b '6 made i t Ic~eape nd South of thei en accel to ship anies stern d n , , 3) IA depresse,d expo 4) I Companies can in 9- region where in the Northwest. T favorable environmen tak~s 60-90 years. ,market d~e Ito a ii' , I : n1ake plywQod fro rl is chea~en and ISouth has a' lon . They ca~ g'row glut of fast-gr markets er growi pine in rket. wiil' r::.: Souther re loser to g s ason and 30- 0 years. than it ~Or ~~Ol transcript continued 13, 1984 Minutes, Week of Nove Page 21: . As you can see~ there forest product$ indus or not spraying. The more economically and existence of the timb that they should begi By so doing th~y will is afterall the conti Thank you. Michael Ewing (contined): 5) Union scales in brought relative pros ,~ri ty to t1housands of wor more expensive than i'p,the Sout~. the South ha a large labor force, higher emplloyee turnover a keeping payroll costs ~ower. I . I 6) The days of low i 'terest rades are gone. to borrow the capita I they needled to expand an able to borrow the ca 'ital for e~er larger home . , . , I 7) In constant dolla s,' the inc1,oome from timber in less than it has been [n twenty ~ears. , , 8) The primary reaso 'sfor job ~osses in the f industry have been due to automation of fi-lls and t~e depressed ho sin market. are many mpre adverse inf uencl' s affecting the ty in the ~orthwest than he c st of spraying ~ are othe~ ways of manag'ng rests that are ~nvironmen~ally sound. W su ort the continued ;r industrYI in Jefferson:, ount, however, we feel 'treating alder as a reso rce ather than a weed. maintain the economic bas of his County, which ped soil fertility of the lan' ase into the futu~e. I i the Northwest have ers, but labor has become ri t-to-work laws, d n er plans. Thus be able to be e Northwest is Chairman Brown: , ! you ,Mike!. Speaker from the ther side. : I Harry Bell: Just as : quick rev~ew of what I'm goi to say, first when you get in Alder Gontrol, ybu've got to discuss the actual wood volumes that we get b lcontrollipg Alder in Douglas F'r stands. I'm going to limit my co ents to ae~ial control an the control of aerial applications with the ~and contrpl. That's what we et from alder control, and then I'm going to talk a little bit about w at i 's worth and I'm using State stumpage a,., lues . Wh~t this cost, I 'm go~ng to talk a little bit about is what it osts for a~der control .on an a ter tax basis. That's what th~ indus ry looks a~, is that addition 1 work worth the cost. And, lastly a oupleof comments about w at a 1 this means. First, when you get i ~o alder cpntrol you're t lkin aobut wood yields there is not a lot of good, hardl reasearch info mati n on Alder control. There is a lot of rea 'good .operktional experie ceo People have been spraying Alder for ye rs, or forla number of years. Oregon State University has done some researc . . ~n ,order to get a ha dle on what we get from Alder contro ~ I talkedl to a number of peop e. I talked to DNR. I talked to Hent~wiggins*1 from M & R, and.I t,ied to get a handle on peo, ple, soper., ationa}.,' e, xperienc~ With, Alder co trol, and what would happen in weed! contro ,'.' This! . What I cam up with is what I call rule 60/40, wh'Gh if you ~isten I think I can get this across to you. What this ru ~ says is ~hatany given area f plantation in Eastern Jeffer~on Cou py, Douglas Fir plantatiobeynd three years old, 40 percent of it without an~ control will develp into a pretty nice looking fir stan I. Sixty p~rcent of it will de elop predominantly into Alder. And I'm $suming no~ that there's 0 se ondary other Maples I just assume that. he other 60% will That :60 percent will need some t<ind of treatme t. in Douglas Fir, 60% w fl need so~e treatment. Of th that 40% of that if n t treated, I will come back to D what happens is, I'll have 40% Dpuglas Fir and I'll 60% come back ~ouglas Fir that comes back fine. Oka of 60%, the bottom li ~is you g~t this piece of lan and come back 64'70 wil ,.be Dougla~ Fir and 36'70 will b my experience this is not to farl from being true. '- !,. I What I've done. to ulate .,bO, arp. feet and volu es i yield tables that has developed and are in m re course, what they is that DO\,1glas Fir stands on , I orty percent come t 60%, I'd assume uglas Fir. And ave 40% of the , and then 40% out there untreated Red Alder. In looked at the ! ort . And, of he kind of site *Contact Harry Bell f , I and! company. I I I ~VOl I Transcript continued Harry Bell {continued we're ci lking ab will produce 21,000 b feet p r acre a similar site will pro 9,000 I eriacre yields, we expect fro. an untre~ ed!piece relatively untreated 'and these I ercentag that on an untreated ,lantation I ill .resu age of 3.2 thousand bard feet 9 Alder a of Douglas fir. In a istand tha~ receives would be good, we wou'd expect ~ g$t 21, shown is that cuple numb~ s this talking about without ,alder con~~ol~ It's very difficult t looked at, we started we actually looked at Jefferson County and 1979 which was a very industry, I looked at all know is a low po I'm going to be predi the future, I average for Douglas fir, and sometime a number of future prediction of from the previous pag it out and caLculated an acre does not h that gets alder contr tumpage lues tha ults fro larlICoun inithe v ofi:wood ight'ed a tnese nu s~~ I co e up oJ:t : a,lder . s lis alo t I; , t' Il..n ~m. n~tol an d Ivalue ccMtrol I! II numbers ~*the wrl~r exp udty, wi dt gain Ii !! 1 ~ for thi~ c~~trol ethod 0 r operation has ias been cd fitrmed b DNR, cos . of applying 2,4-D lat might ~ r~ ia bit depen ing on the site and hat includ s I~aybe $1 a ac e or so for the ,st. The ~ in. I control, we hav never, had one i part of ~ r~~earch proje t a Oregon State Univer- at researd ~]ot in it co t u $84 per acre. . DNR his fl gu~es ru arou d $ 0 per acre: Aga~n ! In this cI s~ ~ an i dustr , t e company ~s pay~ng n,.., come tax I nd ',be, cause we an ~. clare these ex- ~er 46 pe~ edU of t at moey '. tax savings a e only havli ~o invest $11.00 .. aerial spraying e per appll c~t:ion for han co trol. Now, remember I the contri 1 Its onl on 6 % 0 . the acre, the other rating thai cqs:t out for ,fu 1 acre cost $27 per Isome contrl vdisy whether r n t hand control works. bne appli~ t~Qn does 't w rk. ' i Ii I I Ii P this $2~ r~~lects three , , FlPplicatiol . I I There is so a reasonabj y Igood job. W ~ going tOI do!: it, we were r. And u~ ill ithere is su ~ comfort~,l~1with tat. Ie bit co~ l~dated. ! ~;~~t~~,~ Week .of Nove ber 13, 1 ~ 4 i , pin down I with the '* :t:he bid r~ .estern Clai :high point! the price~ nt. The'~ 'ting using those acr! '19/m.b.f. I ,ear averag ny one po~ , wi thout d ,the expecd I'Ve all thd 'l . ' . You move down here an be 5% I hope it stays,i this is what we expec acre of land at age 2 and this $1,086 is th $1086 per acre. these san{ .615 * no as a land in this q .differeno , Okay, what does experienced and is $20 per acre how much time. And contracts that were 1 small experiment, it' sity and in putting t In talking to a man a the concern is taxes. all the expenses for penses you get to rec year. So, after tax opposed to $45 per ac we've been saying tha 40% is O.K. We're pr acre. Okay, there is We know for sure that Commissioner Pitts: Harry Bell: No, each applications might do , we we tions, every other ye show otherwise, we fe DNR it now gets a lit *contact Harry Bell f figures. ern Jefferson County d alder stands on '. In looking at ay an acre now or ly and speculate st at 45 years of usand board feet 100% control that eet. What I've increase we're it all worth. at I've done is ished by the DNR ales in eastern ed at prices in wo d in the lumber ow 'n 1984, which we in hose years and since o p edict 45 years down ith a value of $217/m.b.f. arg ment being that r i the long term y, e have the volume con rol I've multiplied e h r-vest, here, $2931 an here $3117 an acre y 5~ excise tax, will he excise value, e harvesting an ol and with control I, Remember that ications ? eculation that 2 e going to db it ing on three applica- tial research to ing again to the Minutes, Week of Nove ber 13, 19 4 Page 23: Transcript continued Harry Bell(continued): The fina It someone were to in est $100 t $106 in 1985, so you ut it in t figures to $6. the r te of retu interest rate. Look or this in back to equal to your cost. You this exact thing for he aerial to do it, out here in the future it. The rate that wo ld bring t that's the real rate s far as c Hand control is a lit le bit mor The first time you do it in 1984 it will be 1986. In '84 dollars to be less today, you're going t it's not as big a con ern today, cost would be somewha less. Th is your harvest, in a plying thi so they end up here 0 very clos investment, 6.6%. for hand control is . percent. a return for this and a return f Okay, Just recently Bonds after adjus were yielding 6.9%, 2 year bond. Comparatively, PhilOS,OPh y a secure i~vestment. You buy that bond over 20 years. Say h re that yo only get this ret And it's risky. We d n't know w at we're going to we don't know, we dor't know if the markets going know the departmental strengths re going to be the lot of r,i sk in this ifvestment. So why invest mone can get this kind of eturn here with aerial alder is pretty high -- it' worth the risk. You can alm when investing at thi rate. In hope:s we get the h Some questions which ight arise and one of them i you don't need these ontrols? ou only need two c drop out there in the future four years it raises t a percentage about 7. %. Really the problem is sti may be a question abo t the rota ion length of 25 y 30 years What happened is that landowners, will not just doesn't give the happen next is that 0 in the future. There most certainly, will mills or mill mainten have a long term impa More immediately, tho to sustain a little b they are not growing because the yield is and that restriction less money coming int logging. Part of tha excise tax the county but I understand that program is about of decreased harvest dollars reduction. T and twelve thousand, lost taxes. cial return on inv ptment taxation. day in 1984, and t ~y would be worth e b~nk. The retur . on your investment n on investments, ou look for this erest rate that br'ngs your return cost up today. at I've done is lder control, say 't costs $ 7 bucks sax $1086 greater benefit from doing is number back to 7 cost is 12.8%, ncerned. That's w at we get, 12.8%. complicated, but ot much so. . the s it's only in 1984 pay this two year if you put money i ugh the tabulation rate that brings to here, and this So the ret t .s is what we 1 r that. What does condtime you apply ollars, it's going in the future, the bank, that is the same, here hese values back is your return on rn on investment ok at in terms of ~t all mean? ent for inflation epending on your d make 6.9 percent rn for hand control. arvest this year, b be there, we don't e and there's a here. When you control, the return st take a chance rvest yield we expect. what happens if trols and one you is number about 1 there. There ars. That means given no a rial controls most nvest mone at this rate in h return tha , for the risk inv viously th re won't be so muc will be a eduction in the fu ave impact on companies that nce or exp nsion in the area, t on the e,onomy. landowners, prudent d control. It lved. What will Douglas Fir available re harvest. This nt to invest in it will certainly gh, most 1 nd management comp ies can manage t, that is they cut what they row. If in fact, s much bec use they decide no to use hand control o low, the will restrict the ut in the future ill be $1,186 per acre that w'll be that much the econo~y to the logger an . trucker and into goes to tfufe tax receipts, ex ise tax and the receives. I don't know if it is true or not, in Jeffers n County, the aeri spray' the mu tiplying that out volume loss because t comes OU! to abou,t three an a third million e excise t x part of that woul be between ten nd the Cou ty's share would b about $7,000 of ~vo 10 rACE Minutes, Week of Nove b r 13, 19 4 Page 24: Transcript continues Chairman Brown: Than o. Commissioner Pitts: Chairman Brown: Sure you might as well sta Commissioner Pitts: spray an acre of grou all the superfluous c attending meetings 1 Harry Bell: Those su annual basis per year and say $2 per hour 0 Commissioner Pitts: by $2 or that's inclu Harry Bell: This out by the range. Commissioner Pitts: Harry Bell: You can about that. Even if to increase that to a little difference. I these percentages are in cost or a little b or how many (what) pe you slant everything analysis do anything Commissioner Pitts: 0 anybody could slant i things I have heard d handle on this progr spray twice. Harry Bell: I am ass control or spraying, that is something you Commissioner Pitts: would you use hand co and one application? Harry Bell: Okay, wh droping:; off and chan this would be Commissioner Pitts: your experience, with Harry Bell: We don't in how many hand cont in controlling alder. least the one we did. that says maybe ince Commissioner Pitts: that three or your on ask a question? a~ ~l ase we re in the t la king. dosJ4r before QU ind f cont kJ his? e fuous c sts,. when you pro a lerelati ely small. If you jO,ething like. that. ~JtlliI~:.:nc eases in e ema~ns what it is qtestion was, is u e that it is. I frankly ifferemtiate and decrease figure incr ,ns out that these returns very s nsitive to that lit o chang in how much volume n, of vo ume grows in relati none irection, obviousl ant. eriod right now tax analysis of wh t it cost to aerial cated that was $20, does that include cting neighbors an doing PR and sly, I guess anybody can direc~ion that they wante the past here we have a t re, an ,I understand somet te it out on an ere to take a look that It's kinda washed in there? dn't even think hat $2, its going se this makes very n investments, le bit of change you expect to get e to fir. Now if you can make the that. Obviously, to. Some of the ee (?) with a mes you have to too, hat regardless of at you do, hand re nev r going to get 1001. in control of alder, reo What percenta do we respray? was g ing to ask what pe ent of your control on is three application, .wo applications VOL 10 rAGE said w s th~t I assume tha mbers And not percent. If wan't lhe question. compa y what is the whose experience that don't think anybo ions you need to r a fact that one en doing some int areas in the sum alder would be you drop $2 off to know with tage? has experience o an effective job esn't do it, at . sting research time . are basing it on Commissioner Pitts: You've indicated tht you've developed the that fi st, .,no, one is g,Oir: ' to work, what I eed two, nd even if th's n~ ber is 7.6% the same th'ng we can't a for(l to pay it. uess mos of the time .t is more than 50%? 've used these figures and wondered where ures fro. You say yo 've ad one experience. Minutes, Week of Novemb r 13, 19 4 Page 25-=.. Transcript continued -- Harry Bell: I am sayin mean is we're going to bottom line is still th Harry Bell: The only r al good nd ~ you may not be f~ili r with it e., I' he said two will work, ossibly . know for sure. Our ex erience 's, at least i onEe examples that are not r ally des gned for alde co put a lot of research i stallati ns where we a e r and breed r plants a d in there an .,~o~' time. One thing I di n t say wh'ch rriightbe a ~n is the possibility of 0 e hand c ntrol applica ion same time, as another glilY comes long and flie. II probably going to co,s tb, out tWi. e the cost thhah to cost for one shot. looking a the alternat.ve't value and return on i vstment i % so eal to a make it a worthw i e invest ent. Commissioner Dennison: I Back to question. Wh, al aer~a contro as to bt respray Harry Bell: I can't nfwer that Jefferson ount work in Jefferson Cou t , I work the other, ide. centageis something n independ study migh su in there and you spra n '84 yo the f rst the second, and if yo 0 have t spray the se ond get the cts you Doug Belz , but pt it,a discussion, ey don't really example, and other rol, but we've lly concerned with 'rols 99% of the resting alternative f herbicide at the assume that that's control is going ou decrease it in its not high enough percentage of your 10 fAtE because I don't i I think that per- ort this, you get ime and very little ime only partially ouble your spray cost here. % as to 12.8 it's almost 2% Commissioner Pitts: Harry Bell: Yes, the back pack spraying. stand on the ground. Harry Bell: Yes, but Commissioner Pitts: of I were ta king about ha one doing the cutting, nd one ding the spray I can't remember who twas, tqe said they we cator and after they utt the s~u,p or whatever had to hand layer wit those squ(eze bottles i that is used? I I Harry Bell: I don't n~w if i~ ould work. I to do some research t ere. I ~h nk that right that method and we co ld assume hat would cos control would cost. e I could ~It II try and im here. Commissioner Pitts: rl therela y application that is done by han(l the grou d without cut I I are. ~'e got some fi not stir how accurate I I wo people come in, I was talking to, ing a bottle appli- s they were cutting, an approved method there's a possibility e could look at ore than what hand the differential Commissioner Pitts: it. You have no stat y kind of herbicide recently and its are and its in a Harry Bell: No! ou e]i inat'e at leas sonic st? I I cutting part of Commissioner Pitts: ? Mike Stamon: We've crews. for has~ad experienc Backlpack spray s I couple of year I lth applying herbicide ~y. Minutes, Week of Nove .ber 13, 19 4 Page 26: Transcript continued at was th question? Harry Bell: Idon't Commissioner Pitts: Harry Bell: Is there 'anyone who on the ground, withou' cutting? number of our , Commissioner Pitts: o's we? I Mike Stamon: Mike St from C own Zellerbach." I I at kind 0 res*lts did yo-q e? I "'l I ' have b en ~~ywhere from I good to not so II ,I , I , I I ! I Commissioner Pitts: you know in Jyfts of terms f is real good or not so good? ' . I Mike Stamon: The exp fro thJlnot so goo~ ~hen we first did it and weren't toos u Ie, and the e wa~n't anybody ~l ~ around that had tried it before, so w i were a mo th cl.l;1ead shufflin ut our own and couldn't do it per ti !e. The co t p~t acre ran a ~'ere from we, one area was $6.00 up to Is high as 100~~0 an acre. ,e nding on again the terrain, size of he unit. he q1j1e that we ha I, S a real low cost per acre we had a big 'tract of t ree,IDr four hundr ~cres of pretty clean flat ground. I I was treat d eajllY on after 1 rr cut and there wasn't alot of vegeta lion and tr es. Just getting ~mps out and stuff like that we' vegot 1 its of file and more informa n and an even more detailed breakdown an with that kind of stuff we' been in areas that people with aerial spayers and ! do othe-r fY' Commissioner Pitts: u u~lng in ~ II 1 Mike Stamon: We were using -Roun up ~,* a t' on and Roundup and a water solution. . And from hat: I . ! II I Commissioner Pitts: ,an you jus gi~, me just an f I your head estimate ot costs. ~600 to ~200 Ian acre, I II 4<1> the same. II -pess the first thing that comes to m mind is t at $200 an acre:tli i stuff is probably on a steep slope at a higher alt' tud~ t I: '. ! I Mike Stamon; Well, sleep slopes and Iterrian wit~1 e ty slash and older vegetation that's bee , around fo awijfle a real nufg f to walk through now. And my gut feel ng for the cos~,lof doing it".., ,a ~ally, with a back pack sprayer is proba ;ly somewhe e iJ1.fetween aeria pplication and hand treatment. Iti: cheaper hanl~and treatm~n , '~ are saying $8 for the slashing and It might be $50 icpr $60 for't e basic treatment. That cost is chemical land labor.. I , I I Commissioner Pitts: that stuff to I Mike S tamon: Sure. !' s s get to. eth~I with ~Ybe get more detail s as to exactly what yo hare lookng 4t. I , I ,I Did I he r Yd~ say that rOjr %rst experiences :es when yo welf",i just deve 0 i t this? cost. '.1 i I Commissioner Dennison The wors coJt and what ~bf in terms of results? I I I I I I I I Commissioner Pitts: Mike Stamon: good. The res Mike Stamon: The i' rAt! ~o , , L'J Minu, tes., Week gf Noveib. er 13, 19 4 Page 27: I , ' , I Transcript con~inued tr Mike Stamon: When weldidn't app y t didn ' t pick th~, right J C, heI?ical f r t was wrong, we were dotpg ~t when the up .... I : I Commissioner Dennison! Generall yo MikeStamon: We did it again wi h a was working on ithe si~es. Our t min effective. I I." Commissioner Dennison)i I am ver cu the cost per acre that' we were g ven that you have given u1' Harry Bell: The cost per acre 1m g what it cost us: to do :it. Commissioner Dennison gave us was w a:t 'VOl ce cre ct of ges ~ i chemical str right app~,., ic rees were too . I ~ enough or we t'on or our timing p rmanent or take , I say that a~ i got experience i I better feeling 0, r how the herbicide r got bet:ter, an t became more I '! l 'i taus at '"the, di f~rence between Py Michael and t e cost per acre i 'I I I ring perimental. That's I " l ~ichaelsayiwa he $60 that he tust be with e reience. I . I I I same arou I the barn lns or cpmment te you ~mation on pricing I I t run the lute slve Management fpartment of Npral Resources, manual, aptayi g and slash, etc. ow much; cost e, etc, for the available to~, we let a contract here to, this htlemen. In themicalS on t I ground with a act that iuvol ~d around 287 ine units. T I units were sit- n Jeffersoh C nty and the initial that wen. orm, all ~SOlicity, which three bidders t wanted to even te bidders,ltw f them submitted bid $450 per e. Well, we couldn't Ito do the cont act, even though iveness of this type of treatment in Jeffer, so~..' C, pty. So, I", since ~ot a hold of r personally and tusing p r., es~.",nt, prk for calcu, lations, ent ter~ai~ si pations, how steep Each unit infporated, some eradic~. te',a,n raybe another, unit %uld have bee f total awesome Iwe sett~, edon, fnged from $75 ir) $150 per ac r,' I would be ricing as stat a and also of those Mnit." s ~ you can inspect tctiveness of t:it kind of use. Itract" s tha, t fhe only experience th campI, cr~, ws , tOU know the Honor f' etc, b...,ut i as ,r, as a actua.. l, 've led. Nin eparate units hand state yo the cost for a rom $78 an ac I to do the same I ,. 10 11'1" 0 fACE: I I Minutes, Week of Novemb r 13, 1984 Page 28: Transcript con~inued -- I Commissioner Dennison: Back pack sprry? Al Vaughn: Baqk pack s ray or hack '~, squirt. This contract is a COffi- ~i~~i~~nt~; ~~~~i~:~kc~'~~Y~~~ :~~~~a~~~~:q~~:~~~, e:~i~~a~~~~,i~~c. All my experiel1ce with ,istrict crews~ in other wor s, so we have a fire drew, a cQ,uple or ; hree people k eping busy do, n, g ,something like that and not a high pri'rity, prices ould range pr tty reasonable, because of the 'pay stat's and the lowl positions. T ey may range to $50 per acre. . I Commissioner Pi.,tts: Ji, there is a ~ontract going tinished tor both and Cehter roads whe this to maple out 0 a on ounty. I Jim?: That's a maintelance treatmenk and we base ot , uh the contracts g. as high as $1 per acr. a treatment. ]t's usualy about 5 tOj 1~ stumps per wood would be more like perhaps 10 stpmps per acre. Question from ~omeone: 1 (Jim ?): but, we donit have the br~adcast applic to do the back Ipack spr:ying in alder~ You've got: period in aerial applic'tion you do it at bud break application Y04 have to use the same time frame or carrier from oil so tha to reduce th~ damage to yo why its not a real viab e alternative~I' You hav, e to it on the Commissioner Pftts: Bu this contrac you have or (Jim ?): Well, it is still going or-, it's: just r maintenance itself. I Commissioner PiJtts: Is that an exper~ment or is confidence in, ,Have you done it beforf or uh ? I (Jim ??): this is out first year. jOther compani s and the State have used it fbr the la~t four or fiVr years. I Commissioner Pitts: Th't's Garlon ri~ht? , I I Commissioner D~nnison: I am having al little bit of ifficulty Andy Bryant: Excuse me I'd like to ~nterject some this, I think is an important point. My nafe is Andy Bry am a research scientist for Crown Zel erbach forest y research. ' work primarily with vegetation control I and also pra tice develop~ I am also a licensed herbiclide cons .l tant in Oregon and Washing . n. You folks need to realize when you are talking about I manual releas and back pack applica- tions, so far y:ou've on y been talkin$ about controlled numbers of stems per acr.,e you're, n,ot tal ing about a Pf' r acre b, lanke t, r eatment. I think you should look at the ost per acre f broadcastin find the back pack sprayer of Roundup, whi h will contro more than sp ies and compare that with a broladcast a ,plication of helicopter a . Roundup. The cost of a broadcastapp 'ication of Ro ndup to accep ble forest level rates is about $60 an a re versus, I uess, from th group here, about $250 an acre t~ broadcat with a back pack sprayer. the other thing you need to kno:w is con rary to the t stimony that "s been presented here, there is levidence Ithat I will s bmit to you i writing that doc- uments a grass as signi icant competi ior to conife ,development and reduces the ste:m helper land height of I conifers in e. . ly development. Brush is also a: signifi ~ant competitor and even Heml ck will die under shade especially under ' long competition with alde and other species. . I: I I 10 I ~ACt has just doing the number not as good Your average (Jim ?) : Rig~t. tion of chemical very limited time br before. Ground hange the chemical r conifers so that's use the oil to get something you have , ' ~VOl Minutes, Week of Novemb r 13, 19.84 Page 29: Transcript co tinued -- I i i There iS~S pstantial docu brush fie d I in California, t and refo e ted and no che trees are~s. ~,' II stun,ted' af h. If tha elps you guys on to you 'n ~riting. I I , , I Commissioner Pi,tts: I anted to c~a t' fy something s,aYing t at an ,aerial a~plication ~o I would estimat $60 per acre? I I , , I !. I ith Roun up, plus ttie fost of bradca t, application of m he. rbic de like R, o~,n ft:>. With a br! 'dcast application up using back pack. i I i I re is $40 1i Ference in the. ost of Roundup , I I I can't cal~ t a chemical, I I is also subst~n tally more exp i I ! i i cost right! f' w for 2,,4-D i,'.S $", 9.89 per gallon. $48 a gall!o and Garlon is $70. I i ; f this is gj~ ,ainebut one ...t 1.,' ng I won der about have been sip yed and harves ed, so that we to show t~e ffectiveness spraying? We e the '60'il' fO there has n really been a of herbicid $ to have offse data. This has uming that Ii ,I works out tha.t it doesn't show cause twiS~i in crops and hings like that, ude that i9 ur data? have alot qf ~xperience ~n c rch. We haid $ome operat~ng! up on time.j ~t least, one a ,r, bud a der. It wals 'imdernea th, Dou fo~ aer'al sprayin~ ~d then came ba eu.end u with is a ID ~glas Fir stan i~ t~pn an ... i I , I hat, what Ii ~n't understan it what I've seen u get scho~ll marming, you ge twisted tops, your failir lin that rain the summer.1 there is reallY' no excuse for that e spraying !$ ~eone can go a look and know ve :. Iwe have alot p logistic problems ere four ide ~rs that were t. follow, I don't to really isay with it, it . s supposed to be he Commissilo .,.rs of the. spea,,' ers after the pre- Larry don'tl ,ve anymore que tions of Mr. Bell estions !!. entation of tpat are over 40 ical or er 40 years that t, I will be glad Andy Bryant (continued) Tano ? grown, 'there ar years old. th~ third c has been applied. , thos are underneath :that bru to submit thatinformat Andy Bryant: a broad spectr of a ground se (unidentified You were Z costing Andy Bryant: stem than 2,4- acre per Tom Jay: I do't know is, have any u its that actually have ield dat have been spraing sin rotation throu h the us all been specu ated, as that some herb'cides do but I wonder i . you inc rtain thing and xperience, I think a where there's as Fir, so we photo- k in about 8 to that is past the Tom Jay: I unerstand in some units . is tpat y if you miss bu . burst b Harry Bell: T because on the whether or not to overcome. late in ~ay you' if you h Harry Bell: W be a secondary we spray we ar we end up in C towns. seen any e~i e get spraYl careful whether or n We're very care t third t ~. Russell? , I lnce that there is, but it could ter a creek. . are careful when 11: there is any ~dentifying damages ml. We'~e very ~areful around I I 10 fAGE Commissioner Do you cost meanifn The cost tol , Harry Bell: Commissioner ~vot Minutes, Week oif Novemb r 13, 1984 Page 30: , , Commissioner Pitts: I ould just llike to make a st. ement here for everyone who is, present ng or listening to the comme ts. I cannot make a decision one Iway or a other base~ on cost. Based n what it costs you to do one thing or nother, That's not within m charge. The infor- mation you have! given m is very h~lpful as far, as ckground information is concerned. 'What you industry iSI about and what t evarious options are. That's not how I an or can'~ make a decision ased on those things. And if, that is, the pre ace, l'\.' to s!omething that To said that I want to re- spond to as far as' John Raymond's lletter, we receiv in the middle of September. YoU: 'asked a question a-qd I can answer t t we were given answers to our questions back i July or Aqgust, whenever i. was, and that ~s in our records.' that is part four minudes that correspo s to us and it lstates exactly what We did say is that "~he basis on whic we, can make a ~ecision is on a basis qf health", which is~one of our charg s and that, if act, is what John Raymond ga e to us. here was no reas that I could hink of to make it public or publicize ,t or whatever an that's that. ~e haven't answered your q estion? I I I I 1 hear abo.qt health aspects The~e's eading up ~o here is there A me~ting will be I so that ebple stay on tliat ent and if Ithere is that re ction in the industry cts and ha]f the value of ti ber Crown Z haxrvests stry. Ano~her pair of perc tages, there i~ got to ba~ance against the otential risk I l, Harry, ~ think you quote' something like I to the courity per year in y ,r scenario. I~ ious that ~ could sit here, if I knew it wa ical probl~ms to citizens i this county an it. I don'lt know what that,", I am not sayin& but just tio put this in pe spective of wha'tf I i arvest is $3,00q e:~e~a~~ep;o~~e' here. I Transcript cont!inued -- Commissioner Dennison: I see is a lot~f talk that the cost of manual not a whole lob of back hard time making a, core started doing it, it co they did it the less it how you figure ,in or wa Harry Bell: I 'do not e I would c find the majori'ty of ma number in there, and it number. I have a slashing and specifical ,that ~ll in t cheaper to do it. "The going to be paying much cost without an ongoing Harry Bell: Nqpe! We' one comment that I way to get the facts. Ther sustaining yeild manage there's going ~o b.e imp goes to the logging ind a cost there that you'v Commissioner P:ttts: We ~127,OOO in taxes comes cannot say in good, cons causing some sort of me say that that was worth I know or don't know it we have to decide. Harry Bell: If you see per acre per year is re li ttle over ' I'm sure alot 0 I'm a littlle curious bout certain things and I ge applicatio~ is almost an ass round data,1 so I am having a ation. Yod talk about detai t a lot and! didn't get much cost and beltter results. I that figurled in. aluate han~ application onl st you $50 Ian acre its not ual controll that's just not s not an ef!fect number, it's suspicion tlhat if, in fact, , y planting Iwork for the at one perVod of time is go~ roblem wheJever you have sca more to do !it. It is fine t program, I ithink that is because of what the impression mption based on 'little bit of a , when they first esults. The more m just curious I would say and nough. You'll .-t. There is a kind of a continuing e went specifically amount of acres g to make it relatively ce labor is your talk about controlled I ~ VOLI tryirlg , that the v4lue of the lost sonable, tijen the value of which is aqoUt half that ilS don't know Ithat or they'd b Tom Jay: Just for a se ond. Chairman to folow I I Brown;, John, ou set it 'Y'P with Tom Jay. it now, 1 don' care. and :I think to both sides ~ould nd I've got sixl appy to receiyel 'that and tha~ IS I i M nutes, Week ~f Nov~mb p ge 31: II I . .JI. ' ; d I anscrp~t con~~nue 1-- :i : ; . I :' .:: i ~ i ~ ! mmissioner P~tts tqnt rmat~s not ~o eep e time, and e~eryboqy could. I stiill have I ! I Onlyijust a b at ~t seemed!that dhe ze and that dnihc~ea at showed th~ direqti handle on them.' ! , I mmissioner PiJ'tts: iI' r~ety 0 peop e a~e at is very remarkable at, I'll just disctiss xt week too. " One ~ro dustrial Educationql esident of Environmen milton Corpo~ation** erhaps the siJp.gl~ ~os t ey be sure to cons~de h s been treat~d or not i being done, how iq i e tensive care ~f th~se t is young lad~ saidlas had t'o say ~ I ying to say fis thaq t rm chemical ~obbiea w d this is out of. the Earl C. Ske~ber, ~ho fidiency, pro,duct qrr tended, this iean also out improving efficie plication of ~he stiuf are this with anybqdy apply this ~ituff, I so ct, it is a ~roble~. other paper qere' w~th the use of Herbic~de r safe use 0:[1 2,4-D'\a ying exactly lithe same plied, this ~s p~i~ar this man, I ~ave bee s telephone number, I find it for Ime.He ift, and thad is what ing. Then sdme st4ff e height of aipplicctti d not working on a ipl , the a ost ~nterestin , . I ontact Tom J~y for!co Contact Commissioner r 13, 1984 ! I I I nued): :wh~ I'm here. the th .1 s erybody sh4t up, but it was PU~IPoses greed on tHat. I would lik if some more 1uestions I I hink, I qO~'t object to him aving so much ~ime I 1 tried to dd is to get the q estion of this Jerson t I' ve tri~d to move for an ,that's why Mr. i If, in f~ct, we are done w, then we'll move , I questions? i I ave more qqestions. Are th any alternati~es uld be loo~ing at ai far as pplying these tihings or the cOrripensit:y to loose . "'large amount 1f that you a~e not an expert. I want to know. I' he can pasls to us. ief hint iJ Markham's* stud, where he said! applicators! were headed tow cis smaller droHlet e in volati.jlity, but there 's no other stud~es n of the tXjeatment techniqu s. I couldn',t ~et : I I I e aot a. '1lbOth sides and:t etween sides, ~ resented, tihat I've got. 0 of the things I on informaqion that has bee sent to me, is! it very briiefly, because I' ht this addres~ed a guy nam~d John Rademaker nd this is from anagement. I This quote from im, he's a vice al Health ~nd Regulatory Af Irs for I nd a forme~ EPA enforcement dministrator. ! importantlaffect of Educati n management p'tjofessional those peo~le who are in or ear an area th~t simply contact the ~nd explain wh~t 'being ,applied, what the en result would be applicatio~s." This is in .esponse to wha~ far as comj'Unications is co . erned and what I!' think more directly realted 0 what you are, ere are th~ee pages d Washington D .IC. o lobby in D.C. for the tar chemical indus~ry. eptember islsue 1984 of Farn;t hemicals in a qommentary is a lobbyilst. It says "th proof of produo;t ved on the Itarget at the rat and site it was prevent th~ need for reappli ation and talk I cy and low~r cost of operati n through actu~l ." What he Isummarizes is an I'll be g~ad to here, is t~at there has to technology de~eloped it is'nt d~ifting. What he ,s saying is, i~ Drift is a Iproblem. This is from the indusqry. regards to !damages cause by 2.,4-D, research I by Quentin IHalenbacher** Co hairman of "Cidizens d, '. other resltricti ve use of" rbicides", He ~s thing. He lis talking about ow the stuff ii' ly east of Ithe mountains. I haven't talked. trying to Iget ahold of him, if anybody has! would like Ito have it. Blai Wolfley tried I s talking ~bout real proble s associated with everybody Here is talking a ute It's the rleal from the D~partment of Agri lture which re~tricts n. I hear Ithis is a real p blem Over here I in and I wquld like to have hat addressedgnd plication, Ithe ways you can improve this whdle . Bo b ? I ' names land/or spellings I L. Pi~ts for correct n spell~ng. I I I I ~VOL! 10 fACE ~ 0369 I I I I I I , bf manual appli~ation equency incident ithout it's imp~ica- ts~ for instan~e, I certainly I and knows I has had r~sk I I wanted to saj I I indirect costl there is no I I I I question for Tdm nts to talk abdut low volatile I ot, but one prloblem nit. I don't . hat goes out, ~'m t was that thi~ a produc t us ed I I am wonderin~ ! i is a cons~derable I think dhat I labe1J , , I i I e 2,4-D. There for weed c01trol ! I the esteJ::t I alence or the ester I kdown of what flormu- I I I I rent ones. I f, the reasons t~'eY fast, and tha ill turn to sals key things I m~ntioned re of the waterf M'nutes, Week of November 13, 1984 P ge 32: I ! , i I. I dJ contj~nue . , ' i ): ,A rec~nt comment, the safety aspe~ts u ing c a~nsaws,kni.v.es and machetties there is a f t at you may w~nt ,to I research that too. It is not t'ons. I know that our own crews have worked, hl!id o e broke a vettebralworking with manually. mmissioner Pi,tts: i I think the difference here, B e man goes out t e~e alone and out there doing,th e risk as opposed ~o the neighbor, who is out the posed upon him. ! I : . I Bob ??): I don't mean to compare these tow, s not withoutrls~ also. I think he's trying to say t contrary to the other one $ay mmissioner Pi.tts: lOne of the things that I have a out ~s, e touc edion water. I don't know if he i next time, or what:, but I was sent a label ofl 2 4-D, I don't ,know ~f you're familiar with this or I had with thi~ label was that I didntt have a d~te k ow if these labels iare dated or is this something re that labelIng' cijanges on these things. Theipoi rticular 2~4-D was~in fact, direction for usefb r weeds in waste pqnds and drainage ditches use a that is sti~lsui~able or appropriate? , I'm not sure, is it an ester formulation, ount of research about the behavior of esters in (Zamanski & Shearer)* , nidentifiedrtian): IJohn, that is a recent label, tanl{: this year. I I can answer mmissioner Pitts: lAnd it has to do with t o$e~ I'm not a chemist so nidentified ~an): i Pardon me. mmissioner Pi1tts: I It has to do with the chemical rmat~on or watever it is of the 2,4-D. label will tell you 'I'm sure there is a lot m Jay: Esters ih ~ll the research available one e er certain applications is because they hydr6li ans it will turn ur),dercertain pH conditions, it. d acids that iare nqt quite so dangerous, but tb.re re enzymes to metaijolize those things, the temp~r~ d the age of the wcj.ter. Couldn't you was I assume at resources $60 and $30 an acre. ',VOL to rAtE M nutes, Week of Npv mber 13, 1984 P ge 33: " I anscript contiinued -- i' I nidentified man): ~$60 is my own experience. $30, I understoo to t e orestry., L"n u try averag, e depending on whethe they are u,ing e 2,4-D or Rou~dup, and if uh and this is another oint I want I clar- ied..... I :~:s~:~::? Piits: lIs that applied by people irl. t field or Ufl. .. ( . n~a:e"nEu:~ed m"an,): ~I had a n" umber of qUestions~, 0 was his $8 fi$ure r manila cost, nderstood that figure and Iund rstood that figltlre s what it cos:t the this summer to use kit crew a cat crew w 0 had way, had been., ~.,pra~ing a,lder. They figured the, to al cost of the I eration was $83 an acre. T just wanted to poirlt 0 t that we did 'One ntract with DNR wh n they first, the first year th y went out to see at it would cost. I believe we did three units an ,I don't rellember e exact dates:. , I Believe it was '81 or maybe t 80. I believe he i st was $59 to' $67 dlT something like that. The: ave age was som' where there. We made $~O to $12 an hour as a profe~sio al crew. Tiesel ople make a l~ving Ithat way. I canft compare the ensities bUI'I I n tell you one .,thirtg. A professional crew is a wh le lot more lim:+-ted an a cat crew or a Iresearch.crew or whatever. 'I' just talkin,abcput ve Y.ears I've:',b,een IdOing. th~S. and that's about ,.the. ',.a,verage cosi': 've ',never had:,' any ~'njUrieS ',0 the, r than hornets s,tin, s and wood hips the eyes. The wo st they all have chap, hard hats and rk boots and good aws.' there is alot to get :tnto, I just did 't t into it. I . I Pitts: lAgain, the review is that on ke Ewing: Doug Ne son has been sending out, I ithi k he starte~ in an periodically Ihe has been sending out a stlmma y of previo s y~ars sults. the fitst gne had a lot of things inirlth t he was sp cul.ting it terms of ~utti~g by the quarters of the moon, . 'orning vers1jts after- on, and finally, I guess, the latest paper which c me out thiSiyeat, basical." ly deCf,ded th, at none Of,those things are r, a, lly a fact, r b1f1t at the month bf Au ust is definetely is a factor. And, I don' reijIember e exact, percentage of resprouts but this brings up another poi It, I that one of these Igentlemen referred to the (the ~onomist pe~son! I dO,n1t, remember h~s nam,e) He ,talked about labqr i t,hiS kind ~f th"ing the short spp'n li~e even if it is July 15 to Sept mber 15, I just! nt to remind you tHat these are the same kind of a guments that!: haye en made,when the Pjlicy of reforestation you krtow, when it becilme i tional policy" ,but there's also an argument that t e later you do i, you require to ma y people to do it in a short; ti e span. I flusti nt to remind you tHat millions of acres of landar reforestedibet~een bruary a, nd July in Ithis country ever, y year from th usand,s of tree I rms and It's ~matder that, this has been going o for twentylyeats d you start out wi~h some pretty motley crews and ot better atd mQre ofessional. There'ls no difference and when you ta k about you, know, the work's there 5nd the helps going to be there, nd the crew form. at's,.their buisines , especially the way things are in the Nort west , I I think we should have some co mis~ion i Question, Who does that? e research DNR I guess it's like to, I'm not an econo .st, I didn' come re w~t the idea t at I could refute someone here ike the man that shere, becau!se I idn't understand the timber, be ause , so I donrt ve a way to f'igure Ithe value of timber and they ha ~ no way of knowing at t,he value '.,Of th~ir timber, is g, oing to be fou"r a, rs from no I ' because body knows interes rates, so it's complete guessi g b';lt I jusf wa~t say that after I'~e made a comment I do understa th~s stuff I and! want to' talk :to" bO, her sides of this economic fun . ng and I har' e the mes and addre:sses . f you want. . VOL 10 UtE M'nutes, Week qf Nov$mber 13, 198~ P ge 34: . , I T anscript con~inuedl-- mmissioner Denniso ormat~on ava~ a I personally ~ould like to on this. every bit of The Forest' Ser~ice has barl i aerial applicatibn, all app~ic ce that ban has been on therie sive search of llterature orla m which has been ~er no GontroL., Th,=re's a lot 0 : :':: I I ble, tthat I can g~t to you. ! ke Ewing: THe gen,lema~ in the: back there - I !ca ra~g t ,ut he:' s th~ researcher who' ~ talking a~ou formation isri't co ,rect~ in terfus t~at they ha~e at there is benefi from spraying and I just want at, that statemen I made was t:akert from the Jan at I gave you ther and :her$tateme~t was baseq 0' tional Forests in egioti 6 our of lV and three !BL e found and its al the-rre, :all in the materials, t ve those studles a d it Imay very po~siblybe tl1at e more on top' of i than the ,federal- government;. en't but she-Tha 's taken: from her statement- t the Ninth Distric Count of Appeal~ that they irul junction and that ' all II know a.bout it. And, ,she e ere she. got that i form~tion~ what that's based 0 . I . 5 an herb been exte, natives w fective t formation 6 . cidf=s sive th I hand on ! , , , Forest Practites Act I , 't get the n me i t e fact th t my s arch that shows o clarify tt,e f~ct e ton state entl t e study 0, 141 d'stricts. And~ a they did not! r'vate comp nie$ , not sayi g w~ was pres nte<;l in favor f t~at plains inlthere I I DNR, ~ow f~~i~U1tUre ent reSPO+Sib~litY at you meCj1n? I I I so if the e'sl riculture wou1d herbicid s 01jl.. , aerial ap'lic~tion airman Brown: Any , , , Now, Ilet me get this straigHt. d, tHe Department of Agriculltur . " identified man): es, iThe, Departmknt of Agric:ult r e~ orc~ng t e us~ of ~he label pr~perly, alsq th forqing' of violations o~ that labeling which co:uld ents' in waterways, laccusiations <of a$rial spray lenc ope~ty" and t~ey W:'ll t~ke vegetati6n samples do s rtaiJ."n ac", cusatl,,' o,ns. And !theY,al$, 0 en, force the, ll,ice plidators. Ifa c mmeraial applica~or is found' gu ose Ilabel redommen ations, he cQuld i lose his li!cen !: ;' ': : I siness. ' . " I , . nid~ntified r~c~ ture. How does one getiin touch with , I I I 's anything nvestigat,s. is reSPO~!Sible investiga e the an herbic de I o ching on rivate b tantiate tthos$ s. 'ng of theicom$erCial 1 y of viol,tin$ ,e to operat hi? . I i Departmelt of , , , That'is in Olympi~ - just cal:l.. I If I ~ave a compiaint? ~~~ to f"~ i I , , , ' nidentified man): If it involves DNR land, M par~ment 0 Agr~cu~tu e man will come out to inderested in for st pr,actice aspects along ric4lture, would b i terested in label viola t aJiold of all Cou ty Extension Agents and th rtment of AgriCUlt]lre'S number or you can cal cultjure direct. mmissioner Pitts: An questions involving so ra I an or pr~vate 1 nd, let's say it involv atsiomebody didn't wn twiped out then ...... I nid~ntified man): If it's private property, ustjry or state and djacent to private prop er 'doesn't want d~ift on his land, it's the plidator to keep i 0 f there and if they wan cult:jure to take sa pl s to see if there was d ]t's at the dis retion of the Department 0 int ito eitherreprima d or cancel the license I mmis!sioner Pitts: So, if any land outside of n , Iregar esso hat the crop is, it's Depa r sponsibility to , nid~ntified man): nYes, sir. The State is in act~lces go. ou k ow we're responsible for e w wqich means that we need to know what area tes i- whatever - t at you're going to aerial d allong streams of State significance or down think that's kind f a check and balance. Ju nd 9oesn't mean the Department of Agriculture I m J~y: This is just a point of information - untY1 who have repo te overs pray and had drif no Isatisfaction f om the D~partment of Agric eat~d condescendin ly. d myself an4 th~ at because 'tfe'd! h,e D epartmemlt Of"" so a person cou~d ld have the De-: Department f Ag- agricul- er words, i~ itls nd the property I S, ibility of 1 the i, Department qf Ag- h..,., e,y can reqJ. es t i,., culture at hat: e applicato . ! I , and or indu try: of AgriCU11urels as far as ~ore$t ng forest p act ices at kind of pplication anything bewee~ pe 3 stream and ause it's S atel volved. I Tom, contrary to tha called I is there a estab- people of t lems have h They hav called, ,ainted with ces where t on investi , i riam Meach oat they do een an inve thro I nide!ntified woman): entlemen, I do want to u a i etter rom one ma who called me, very d leave his place belca se of drift was anxious er a!nd take pictures a d called the Departmen gges!ted, they came out to, investigate another oblem and went by id looked at this man's pl II tlhat's not sprat at's " and refu w,' ~.hiS is just.' an e xa p.,~'e, 0.. f the,fr',ust ration y tq settle the proble ~s to take the sample would come up. He refused, to take the sampl do~bt. He was, parltic larly upset because so litt!le girl in the fa ily had become very ill w, I!'m just trying to point out the gap betwe e fa!cts, which the Ici tizen experiences. Now, ic t!hing in trying Ito document the health aff w kniow that they c5n call the Department of A c. Bind requestthi~1 beoffcially reported as II tlimber companiesl' Timber companies send s I at I have g~ven Qisturbed, ijad : ve someone dome: gricul ture, 'as , that had a preyious nd said " h , " , , take any s mples. people get. Th$ if it was ! he man is e~er : the year b/or4 e suspectedlsprqy. utiful theo~y and is one more pro~lem- Many people do I ture or EPA directive taint and i stead y like Bob leal~e , ~ VOL 10 'fAGE 0'- M nutes, Week of No v P ge 36: r 13, 1984 , I I with theJ and he Departmemt i y say, "Welt, : stern Jeffe soni d the fores ers+ lso call D. .HS~ tinued: over who drinks ,cof n ~t never get reported :to impartantly DSHS and then th idn't get any reports fro~ e se, they didn't. People clall the foresters but they m~st , t, you see, so we get ..... .1. . , nine tests in Northesd hington thi~ year st, that's for 2,,4-D, say, c emical analysis in water, soild and pliant ~ all three. 1 a test? I A test due to t's your cost, at Crown i, ten? ! I , on't know what a commerciial ab would ch1rge ~ est vegetation than waterl, be, ause there s usually hey call organic pollutants 'n the sampl that so they can actually do s:ome sort of tit:taticpn The sampling equipment i't t kes to do tfuat i o that could be part of ~he pecroanalys~s, I gas is all 'ver. . expensive. I The he equipment I can also s~bm't informati~n tQ that and the relative acc~ra y of the sa~ple$. that's just to pay for t:he amples, rigit? I chemicals tlliat of princiPte. of these $12 tests ~re hey samplint for... on roots, soil, wate'r,. leaves lor ! I I rice list f@r s~mpling you. cost! for water. i iques fromamples l, y stated -"1 ar~, ect samples2 : etect, ;;a~~j~;~[ ~ bi~sy s above): There are erorm tests for, as our purposes, let's say ~ate i water? The concentrations c It would be best to t~ke vary fromlthe time as soon a~ you sus- I entioned abcput I I should be tun ~s there any indication as ~om o you mean how soon that sqmpl Pitts: as you on the That's not as important I ect samples you, of course, f. I I I VOL 10 rAGE I assume run with them 1 I I contirtued ....- , 1984 s, Week of November 7 : ~hey 'lkst ver well if you fre , , More ispecifically I was asking ect~on to get "the most precise information s and my question wa:s 1 in regard to sprays and tion you had drift. ' Do you at to go out an ately after the time of that drift or immedia r is this such a thin~ that is up in the air I I I , hat is the lPti~ ou want in r,gara there was an collect tha sample ely after th fi~st at you real,y can't I ! I I , I o v~rify We took a c ntrbl contact wit~ th~ licopter,',s srraye, d e getting it inot en it goes ,n tp y after the firs~ you get a de~ect~on ot evidence ~hat ,I that immediate I again even ~fter to 24 hour feribdo ntified man): The st~ndard procedure, I gues , although i 's ar to repeat verbatim, is, I guess, tamon: John, our int~rim for sprayin u ve got a cree~ coming thro or out of it re if you have anytQing in t at water or not. before we spra~, we'teall set on the land i radio. Between 5 ana 15 mi utes after the h rea we as close as welcan, we think we might ter. We do that,.. immediately after we do it, . I ur after you sp~ay th~n 24 ho rs after we spr ever gottep a d a surface ~ater imum or Whaftever. e levels. J st I at can facto thrt I nd : our, I , I tified man): Well, in tne i ; I. I ic e ~n t e paper, ~ei follow t at a variabledetectab1e 1 t was there the:Depa.rtmerilt 0 igate the site of thel sptay eyinvestigated "and d~d not s and doing anything mor$ th 5 I I or years ago. ': i i , ofied man): Can I ~sk s6met When the S assume t ey're terys~mitar, they involve som at is a suggest~d schedu+ing by Dept. of Soci Wenatchee on how the: sa~ple operations. Eac f a gallon sanitized pla$tic container and so rt right after $prayip.g, ione four hours, one rty~eight in that range ind so eventually one to fourteen quarts of w~ter depending on the d. The State of Wash~ngt!:on as got back dete ys that acceptalD1e level$is one-hundred part k the highest that we! hate e er received back ven parts per million" arjld y u say, " What's at point?" I $ me ihst~nce it was publishe of that also go s to! the De armtnet of Agric partment of S c~ land Healt Services. In f to' contact an on who: would ave an interst i . , stance of that h d up on and its vel, just in the Agriculture and o determine what ind a reason for n just doing wha I ppening, als I ne applicati nl~ke background s nsei DSHS came ou~ to! the cost wou~d be us pressing ny' . they did. hatl I ate takes sa ple~ type of sch dul~ng ~,.,' and Healthtser~ices sample, is wo ~uarts each sample, tak~s wenty-four h ursi, s, ample has ap,tua[lY chemical ther' vel table levels. The per million and! as a detecta le ur responsib'lit~ in the pape ankf 1, ture who nOr' ifi~." s llow up it m kesi it. i , I I o 'rACE f inutes, Week of No ember 113, 1984 age 38: . ns rvation Distr'ct. We are ttempting ss d here on the environmenta side e ill be at my ouse next Mo dayl at toxicologist with the EPA and! and feasibili y of setting up I what occurs s ecifically w'th I I've talked 0 Tom Jay ab ut ! ta i ve and invo ve i urpose frustra ion~ ab I s miight , Under a new 1 quired to foll ome out! have t , if th~y don' uest a ~ample, nt in the law ople that are w might add th w p and inspect t ke samples, s t ey're not doi th y hve to take f he State of 0 si g chemicals i The o teSta t the State epa~tment criminal tre pas!s. bmit samples to I g their job. ItI's one. and th re'is egon and the State a non-legal fashion legal relati n is e deparJlDment of I I have a qu st on. ai rman Brown: Wh w test~mony, ask ough -- we have t supposed to follo ur. We are at th at that is not ha fo c ap re do now? Are the format 0 ion somewhere upposed to as eteriorated f further. . . . e going to t~ke what? I ju t wonder My format ~hatl questions f r a~, om that form t sb , going or fo come to a con here says we' t point that h pening now. I What 1'd like to do is read wh uestions call ac individual w comment that w c n call. has been g veni has spoken ton'ight. I art~cipated ETING ADJOURNED: EST: j /) ~ ~-r.k~A!:--~ J rdine C. Bragf: C erk of the Board ~ VOL ' \ 0 rACE F 0 6 6