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District No. 1 Commissioner:
District No. 2 Commissioner:
District No. 3 Commissioner:
Larry . Dennison, Member
B.G. B own, Chairman
John L. Pitts, Member
Clerk of the Board:
Public Works Director:
Jerdin C. Bragg
Brian . Shelton
,,1~1~M I~ I"~ Ui r.'lE ,~jf, ,
Week of November 19, 1984
Chairman B.G. Brown called the meeting to order at the appointed
time with Commissioners John L. Pitts and Larry W. ennison present.
Commissioner Pitts: I don't understand your questi
from the industry was in regard to aerial applicati
the industry does have someone today.
then. The person
mechanics. And
Ken Hillman: No. ,that will be Tuesday night.
Commissioner Pitts: No, No, I meant the legal. Yo have someone.....
Ken Hillman: Yes,
Chairman Brown: Well, I'll open the meeting and I' really not sure
who wants to proceed first and what format we shoul take. I think we
should all understand before we start, that it is b tween the people
that have been designated by each of the two groups, that will be doing
the speaking and then the Commissioners will be ask' g the questions
of these people that speak on behalf of their propo ents. So, since
our Prosecuting Attorney is not here, we have a let er here from Ann
Cockrill from the Department of Agriculture, Attorn y General's Office
representing the Department of Agriculture, asking 0 present the Depart-
ment of Agriculture's views. Ann Cockrill, is that your position here
today? Are you representing the Department of Agri lture from the Attorney
General's Office?
Ann Cockrill: No sir, I represent the Department 0 Natural Resources
in the Attorney General's Office and Nixon Hanby fr m the Attorney General's
Office is here on behalf of the Department of Agric lture.
Chairman Brown: So this letter is just from Nixon
if there is anyone that has a preference that wants
has another meeting to move on, why ah they can say
they go first. If not, we will call on Pope an
your man, to present the legal, their legal positLo .
andy. OK, I that,
to go first, that
so at this time and
Talbot, Mr. Hillman
Ken Hillman: Commissioner, this is Jim Johnston an he is going to talk
on our behalf.
Jim Johnston: I appreciate the opportunity to be w th you this morning.
I did deliver a letter to your offices this morning. Hopefully, each
of you received it. I apologize that ah, it was re ived at such a late
time, but ah, it was notbPut together until late la t week and I figured
the best way to make surl it got here today was to and deliver it.
: Voc.
1 0 ifJr~
0' 3 96
Minutes, Week of Novemb r 19, 1984
Page 2:
Jim Johnston (continued): The letter itself is per aps more lengthy
t an wou ot erw~se ave written it. At the tim of writing, I didn't
intend on coming up her and I wanted also to provi e some ,case author-
ities for the use of th Prosecuting Attorney as he begins to consider
this issue. I'll just ake a few brief points, spe ifically, I'm here
representing the Washin ton Forest Protection Assoc'ation this morning
and they've asked me to offer comments with specifi reference to the
issue of State of Feder 1 preemption over local reg lation of the
application of herbicid s.
A preemption is one of hose legal doctrines that,
as a local jurisdiction, you.' re' always on the losi
guments. Because someo e else is always claiming t
the federal government f the state government. bu
preemption is, is a wa in our form of government,
our form of government, of dealing with conflicts b
ernmental entities. We have Federal, State and vari
All of which have an in erest in regulating a varie
activities. And so, wh t the Doctrine of Preemptio
of sorting out some of hose natural conflicts that
are differences in pers ective at the different gov
hen you're sitting
g end of those ar-
preempt you. Either
, esentially what
one of the ways in
tween different gov-
us local jurisdictions.
y of our day to day
does, is a way
occur because there
rnmental levels.
Now, in this State, our State law really provides a couple of ways for
preemptions to occur. ne, if there is an express onflict between a
State law and a city or a town or a county law. In other words, the
two are diametrically 0 posed, one of them has to g've~ Only one of
them can apply. Becaus citizens have to know what rules they're going
to be following. And, 0 what State law provides, nd what our Constitution
provides, is that in si uations of such a conflict he State law will
govern over the local. This is generally known as he Supremacy Concept.
Now, Article 11 of the tate Constitution specifica ly gives to counties
the authority to regula e matters of local concern elating to public
health and welfare, but that limitation , is a, the e is an express
limitation in the Const'tution which says that you an only do so where
there is no conflict be ween your local law and the State law. And,
I set forth that provis'on in my letter.
A second way that a con lict can occur is simply wh re the legislature,
intends that State law ill be the sole law regulat'ng a given subject
matter. That can be ex ressly, in other words, a s atute can simply
say, in its language th t these set of regulations re the exclusive
set of regulations that apply to this subject. Mor commonly, it's im-
plied. That is, you lo k at the whole set of State regulations and you
see a situation where teState has completely regu ated the entire area.
They have addressed all the questions. Quite often they have delegated,
to a state agency the r sponsibility to regulate th area through ad-
ministrative regulation , so that all facets of a g.ven problem, such
as herbicides, is handl d at the State level. And hat's the situation,
I believe the way I see the law as it applies to he bicides in this state.
There are two primary s atutes. TIle Washington Pesti ides Control Act
and the Washington Pest'cides Application Act. I c'te both of those
in my letter for you. nd what those laws do-- If ou read the laws
and you look at all the regulations promulgated und r those laws, you
will find that the Stat has given to the Departmen of Agriculture complete
authority to deal with II aspects of herbicide use. From the stand
point of the distributi n sale, storage, disposal a d the application.
The actual on the groun use of herbicides, and, i portantly, I think,
the legislature has pro ided a specific mechanism i those laws where
the Department of Agric lture to address local conc rns. The Agriculture
Director has the author'ty and has in fact, from ti e to time, adopted
specific regulations go erning pesticides in given ocalities. So that
is the -- the legislatu e when they set up these se ies of statutes was
sensitive to local prob ems. Sensitive to the fact that a question of
a given pesticide is no a strictly a statewide que tion, but may have
local problems, ah, ph sical or whatever, that nee a special form of
regulation so the Agric lture Director clearly, exp essly, has that authority.
. VOl
10 fAtr fli 37 7
II
II
Minutes, Week of Novembe~ 19, 1984
Page 3: I
I'
Jim Johnston (continued) II: In addition the Forest P actices Act, State
Forest Practices Act, ad~resses the issue of herbic des for forestry
purposes. It doesn't de~l with the Agricultural us s but deals simply
with the forestry us~s apd again those regulations re established at
the State level by a IBoa~d called the Forest Practi es Board which is
created by the legislatu" e and the whole purpose of that Act was to come
up with a set, one set, ,f uniform and comprehensiv set of regulations
governing forest practic s. And just is the case with the agriculture
statutes, the Forest Pra tices Act allows the count es a role in developing
local regulations. The! orest Practices Act recogn zes that there may
be local problems in a g'ven county and specificall authorizes the county
to propose specific regu~ations to the Forest Pract'ces Board for the
Forest Practices Board'slconsideration, to deal wit the local concern.
In fact, the Forest Prac~ices Board, before they pa s the new set of
regulations has to provi~e you a copy of, those and as to give you 30
days to take a look at tpem and offer any comments at the County may
wish. II I
So, In each of these sta~utes they really do two th gs: 1) The legislature
set up a comprehensive apd complete set of regulat, i s governing herbicides,
all herbicides in the ca~e of the Agriculture statu es and herbicides
in the forestry area in ~he case of the Forest Prac ices Act, but they
haven't totally cut out ~he Counties. They have in ended to preempt
independent, ~'n my view,~1 independent regulatory aut ority by the Counties,
but they have substitute' what I see as a very sign'ficant and important
role and an opportunity, or the County to have its oice heard on a particu""':'
lar localized problem. II Ah, addressing the second eemption question,
just very briefly. That II is the question of whether ederal law has in-
tended to preempt localll jurisdiction, over pestici es generally, and
pesticides, of course, ipcludes herbicides, the ah - looking at the
legislative history of tpe Federal Insecticide, Fun icide and Rodenticide
Act it seems to me fairl~ clear, that Congress .did ot intend for local
agencies to exercise indbpendent authority. At var'ous times during
the c~nsideration of tha~ legislation by Congress t e~were versions
befor~ various committee!' of both house, House of R resentative and
Senat$, that had provis onsthat allowed for local egulation over herb-
icides and all those wer debated in those committe s and those amend-
mentslcame out. In othe~ words, the Act as it fina lywas passed allows
States to regulate, but ~he provision that allowed tates or local juris-
dictiI'ns to regulate, th~t latter part was removed.
That ct has been considkred by some courts it term of whether it does
in fa~t, preempt local ~ontrol, and there are cas s going both ways.
The m~st recent, ah, Cal~fornia case says that FIF did not intend
to pr~empt local controll~ After I read it independ tly, looking at
it I simply disagree with the court. It was a divi ed court, so the
court l was not unani,mo, us t' n that point. The Califor ia ca,s e is proba.b,lY
one of the, well, it is he most, recent case that I' aware of. Also,
it de~lt with a State pr emption issue in Californi , under California
Stateilaw and; while somf may argue that that is pe suasive here, and
you, SQ,OUld know that theL California court concluded that under California
Statellaw, counties coul~ still regulate herbicides. California State
law i$ different in many II respects from ours. I don't want to get to
far iri1volved in it becau~e it is fairly technical. So I think that the
case is not that helpful I in that point. Moreover, s soon as the case
was d+cided, the case I think, was decided in July, nd by September
the C~lifornia legislature had immediately respond ,by making some
changes in the State lawll to effectively change the esult in that case.
It se$ms to me fairly clbar that the legislature fe t that the Court
had cQrnmitted, had interpreted their intent incorre ly. Because the
legislature very quickly~ from July to September, p ssed on entire set
of am~ndments to the staFutes to change the result' that case.
I I
That'~, all I h,ave, again,l!I appreciate the opportuni to be here. If
any o:f you have questionr I'd be happy to try to ad ess them.
Chair~an Brown: I think ~hat maybe we'll hold the q estions til the
end, tnd then ask each ipdividual that would like t ask questions of.
, II
Jim J~hnston: Thank youl
~ V~l 10 f~t~ ; to
!
Minutes, Week of Novembe~ 19, 1984
Page 4:
Tom Jay: I'd like to in~roduce our attorney, Dave
i
Dave Bricklin: I apprec~ate having this opportunit
you today. I've been as~ed to take a look at the p
and to determine whether! the county has the authori
ordinance. Mr. Johnstonl properly described the con
preemption. Federal or state laws preemptive or ta
authority to enact that bort of legislation. We st
we predictably go in dif~erent directions.
The state law involved hbre is the State Forest Pra tices Act. The STate
Forest Practices Act spetifically a dresses this is e. And one of the
first rules you learn wh~n you try to interpret sta tes is that if a
statute is specific, unatnbiguous, t e courts tell y don't start looking
at legislative, don't st~rt wonderi g what intent i is or might be.
If you have an unambiguous statute just stick with at. And in this
case we have an unambigupus statute. That State'Fo ,est Practices Act
generally preempts local~author,ity, but specificall and explicitly ex-
empts from that descript'on, regula ory authority w'th respect to public
health. So, the state 1 w on its f ce, explicitly, nambiguously says
thati.f the, local author~ty wants to take regulato, ry action with respect
to the public health, th~y are the ey words, local authority has that
power. i
The ordinance which was proposed by the citizens of
here, clearly falls with~n the adve t of that provi
"Whereas" clauses virtualLly all rel te to the prote
The ordinance makes refetence to th population den
people being exposed to he pestici es, to the pote
of ground waters, surfac, waters an so forth. And
the potential dangers of! the pes tic des not only to
but to human populations I. The unce tainties regard'
and so forth. And I of cours , has specific
here in Jefferson Countyi, high wat r tables and th
and surface waters and sb forth. S the proposed 0
comes from the desire to! protect th public health
there would be very much! dispute ab ute People in
cerned about their health they don' have some acad
effectiveness of ,spraying versus ma ual techniques.
in is their health and the health 0 the other citi
the ordinance comes froml that desir , and when a st
you may not act unless ypu are acti g to protect th
clearly is acting to protect the pu lic health.
I
Now, before I get to movk oni to the federal statute I want to just say
one other thing about th~s. You ma have a questio , "Well, we think
this will effect the pub~ic health, but we're reall not sure, we're
not experts. The EPA h~s the expe ts or the fores industry has the
experts. We don't know what happen d last year, we aven't taken a look
at the data ourselves, or done any f the experimen s." The law of the
land though is pretty cl~ar again t at when governm t acts, in a reg-
ulatory capacity, it doe~n't have t be 99% sure or 100% sure. In criminal
law when you convict som~body, as m st of you may b familiar with this,
the overwhelming weight pf the evid nce must tip,th scales to, before
a jury can convict somebody of cr'minal activity. A very different
standard when a governmept authorit is regulating something, parti-
cularly in the name of tp,e protecti n of public hea h. There it is
much more like ah, the c~ vil standa d, if you're, in n automobile ac,cident
and car driver A sues car! driver B, he jury has to cide between A and
B, either side has to prpve the evi ence by this so of a burden, rather
its just which side doesl the scale ip to, a little it this way ora
little bit this way, Car A, Car B. It is much mor that sort of a standard
by which your actions inJ protecting the public heal are gauged. The
standard really is, was the county t king reasonable ction,not was there
scientific certainty that what they were doing is c recto Were they
acting reasonably in thel light of e erything that's nown and significantly
everything that's unknowr. Because you may have.he, d alot recently
about an environmental ifPact state ent (EIS) p,rocess the worst case
analysis and the fact th t there's n awful lot tha we don't know about
these chemicals in, pestl,'cides. An so when a cO,ur reviewf what the,
county has done it doesnl't ask the county to verif I it to ~rove 100%
that aerially spraying ip, this case would be harmfu wi thou a doubt.
to speak with
oposed ordinance
y to enact suchan
ext of the problem,
e away the'county's
rt at the same place,
efferson County,
ion. The several
tion of public health.
itiesin this area,
tial contamination
akes reference to
nimal populations
g the pesticides
vironmental conditions
movement of ground
inance clearly is,
d that I can't believe
is county are con-
ic interest in the
What they are interested
ens and so clearly
e law says "County
public health" this
Ll,\f..' \
9
Minutes, Week of Novemb~r 19, 1984
Page 5:
,
All it says, all the court wants is for the County 0 show that what it
was doing was reasonable: that there were genuine co cerns that there was
some information indicat!ing that t e aerial sprayin would be harmful;
that there was alot of ilnformation not known; and t at, in this case,
a moratorium of three o~ five years, would be a rea onable approach to
let the County have more. time to sift the evidence ndto protect the
environment and to proteict the huma environment in the meantime. The
Courts are very defere~tial when t e Counties act 0 protect the public
health. I have sent you a lettert at quotes some f the cases with
respect to that. And, T won't bot er to review the here but, again
the essence of them is, ,is that, the burden is not n the County to prove
the reasonableness of it!s regulatio. The regulati n is presumed reasonable.
The Courts have alot of iconfidence in the elected 0 ficials of this State.
And there is a burden o~ the challe gers to the ord nance, a strong burden,
heavy burden on the challlengers to prove that such regulation is un-
consti tutional, infringeis on state authority, is. pr empti ve or whatever.
I would encourage you tOi not be cowered by threats f, or suggestions
that ordinances are goinlg to be thrown out in the c rts in challenge.
Because, indeed, the loqal jurisdictions have a tre ,endous power when
it comes to protecting tre public health and welfar .
,Now, let me just briefly: address the federal preemp ion argument, and
that flows from the, wha!t we know as FIFRA, what we now as the acronym
for the Insecticide Act,1 on the federal level, and ere again we have
a situation where the coprts, where its nice to go . to elaborate legis-
lative histories, and sa~ this committee did this a d that committee did
this and one committee r~jected and amendment but t e conference committee
did otherwise. But, th~ courts sa you don't look at the legislative
history, where the statuite is unamb'guous. And if e statute is clear
on its terms, don't tell! us what th intent of the ongress was, might
or might not have been o~ what the intent of this ommittee of nine
was, instead look just art the statu e itself. And ere, let me read
to you the pertinent pro~ision, it's one sentence a its as clear as
day -- "A State may regulate the sa e or use of any esticide or devise
in the State, but only i~ and to th extent the reg lation does not permit
any sale or use prohibited by this ct." The first art, that the State
may regulate the use,buit only if t e regulation do s not permit any
sale or use prohibitedb~ this. In other words, yo can't, if the Federal
regulations prohibit spraying DDT, he County can't llow it. OK so
there's a preemption on that side. You can't do so ething unless, you
can't allow somethingwh~ch the fed ral government ohibits. But, that
of course, is not the calse here. T e case here is e other side, can
you prohibit something w):1ich the fe eral regulation allow, and that.,
very clearly the State may regulate. Regulate the s le and use of any
pesticide in the State o~ly, and th only exception 0 that is if you
are allowing something w~ich is oth rwise prohibite , and that's not
the case here. !
Now, the suggestion made! by one of
is that this clause pretty clearly
is applicable only to the States.
enact a more rest ictivel regulation
flow through to t e Coun~y. Well,
that argument alr adybYi looking at
State has these p wers tb regulate
so long as they'r acting for the b
allowing Counties to usei those powe
terpretation of t is is that the fe
to the states, th State, has in tur
so long as you're actingi to protect
Talbot attorneys ake th~ position,
meant State and i meanti to tell th
authority to the ounty.i That woul
almost every, eve ytime OC've looked
used the word Sta e, it ~as been in
lower elements of state government.
we're delegating 0 tHe ~tates and
towns, first clas , secohd class, t
all the subdivisi ns of ~he state.
I
t_
he attorneys fo
llows more rest
he State of Was
but not the Co
irst of all, we'
the State Act.
esticides and w
nefit of the pu
s. Number one,
eral government
delegated, it t
the public heal
well, when Cong
States they co
\ number one" be'
at a statute an
erpreted to mea
Congress does
hen list counti
ey say states.
Pope and Talbot
ctive regulations,
'ngton it sets could
ty. That does not
e kind of addressed
he State says the
are allowing Counties
ic health, we are
lthough if the in-
as given this power
Jefferson County
If the Pope and
ss said State it
d not delegate that
consistent with
the Congress has
State and all the
t in a statute say
, cities, townships
nd that means to
"
lU~
9' 3
o
(continuedi) : Second, if dongress were to try to do
t at, ~t fould clearlyl be uncdnstitu 'onal, because the
Constitution gives to t: e stat~ certai , reserves for the
rights. ~nd one of th, se rig~ts is divide, essentially
powers of ~he state anyl way th1 state sees fit. As the
upreme Cou)r't said in on case, !the nu er nature and duration,
conferred Mpon local un ts of ~overnme t, rests in the
etion of t~e states. I: is not for Co gress to tell the
nit of sta:te government I can utillize p ers and other units
solute dis~retiorl'to qui te the IUnited tate Supreme Court,
e states".i And so Con' ress having s 'd in the act that
e the powe~ to create m re str~ngent gulations, Congress
and the titnber industr! livesd1by that. And the states
r and all ~he local uni: s of g :vernme within the state
And I ~ay' that beca., seethe IUnited tates Constitution
guarantees th m, because! that is the! ay Congress wr'tes its' laws and
because i th's case we have a state' aw thad specif'cally takes those
powers, as th y relate tb public heal' h, and Ipasses hem through to the
county. So, would conplude my comm: nts thelre and 'ust to summarize,
I think, agai the quest~on is preemp, ion, b~t both he State law and
the federal 1 w with respect to the p blic he!alth al ow counties to enact
this sort of egulation.1 Thank you.
:
Ken, yotI have anyone else belfore we go to the DNR and
Department of Agricult re? I
I
I
,
,
:
I
Okay th~n we'll call on Mr. !Nixon H ndy from the,
eneral fro~ the, repres nting tpe Depa tment of Agriculture.
, I
Nixon Hand Thank you Mr. Chairman. My name is Ni
ttorney al 's Office. Right now I'm rep[resenti
Agricultur. I've been there for abo: t two ylears.
years prec eding that I've represente: the D~partmen
when I lef A n Cockrill I took my posi ion the~e, so
with the i sue from the ~hole perspec ive. I rowant
as an Assi ta t AttorneYiGeneral assi ned to represe
Agricultur a d I'm prov~ding their v, ews, I'~ not h
Attorney G neral, or in any way expre: sing fo~mal vi
Attorney G neral's Offic~ itself. Bo h Ann Cjockrill
resenting client statelagency. I think ~r. Bric
have state t e issue. ~veryone unde, stands Ithe iss
have any a thority to en~ct an ordina:ce thatl would
applicatio of herbicide~ or certain erbicid~s, in
the County. d clearlylunde,r our St', te Consl~itutio
authority 0 e act an orainaoce that r: lates tp the p
power kind of easure. the Constitut onal prpvis~on
however, s ys that such $nactments ma bemad~ to th
not in con lict with State law. That s Article 11 S
Constituti n. And that's what gives .ise to ~he pre
Does the 1 cal ordinance I conflict wit: an exi!sting S
The preemp ion! questionl issues raisid in th~s case
enactments, one is the State Forest P'actices! Act, t
by DNR and I'm going to 1et Ann Cockr'll addr~ss tha
question t at is raised ts through tw' state 'Istatute
istered by the Department of Agricultlre, and, they a
Laws. One is the Pesticide Applicati n Act apd the
Control Ac . : ' I
Thepreemp ion test as the cases have viewed,1 as the
have viewe it in differ$nt contexts, state the test
simply. T e test is simple, it's mor diffic~lt to
test is wh the an ordinance permits :omething that
law or if he ordinance ~orbids somet:ing tha~ is pe
It's just a classic co~flict of law' The tjype of
here"ofc urse, is whether an ordina ce prohiibiting
of pestici es ould in aiyway conflic' with al direct
Now, the D partment of Agriculture's 'iew andl the si
to that is that yes, there would be a direct 'Fonflic
situation. One who has f valid pesti.ide app~icator
Minutes,
Page 6:
eek of Novembe~ 19, 1984
,
Dave Bric
somet ~ng
United St
stat,e, ce
divide up
United St
of the po
Ken
~ V'-
10 f~t:
:
rn 0
.u 38 1
on Handy, I am in the
g the Department of
ctually for the five
of Natural Resources
I am familiar generally
to stress, I'm here
t the Department of
re on behalf of the
ws or opinions of the
and I are here rep-
lin and Mr. Johnston
e. Does the County
rohibit the aerial
certain portion of
, a county has the
blic health, a plea
that gives that authority
extent that they are
ction 11 of the State
mption question~
ate law?
by several State
at's administered
issue. The other
that are admin-
e the State Pesticide
ther is the Pesticide
Washington courts
for preemption very
pply. The basic
s prohibited by State
mittEd by state law.
ituation in question
aerial application
authorization by law.
ple and short answer
in this type of
s license, that's been
Minutes, Week of
Page 7:
Nixon Hatidy
w 0 s us ng a
the Stat qf
and any !jesitr
authoriz~d Ito
An ordinanCe
would be ,ad 0
authorize,dJ,bY
basic ana(lYisi
courts a~pliy
in a vartetlY
preempt 10clal
regulation,1 t
of issue.; ITh
lature irltelnd
lation; or Idi
field? Has! t
there isnq r
to be un~foirm
be localcdun
hensive aJn~ d
the state, Ith
questions' ~re
the s ta te tlak
in this iJnslta
preempted tlhe
lawyers airel i
I think thaJt
,
been cited Ion
the CalifOl:jni
Californ~a Ico
allowed, lab!,
court went Ion
the area.1 II
distingui!shiin
your legal Ico
simply dQnel t
Agricul t-qrei'
it's a PBirtlne
have an Agric
Commi s s i one1r
would say tlha
decided iln i19
find pre~mPiti
but I'm awa!re
but New l{arr\ps
"No preemptio
both di viideld
of the cdurlt
I don't want
issue.
I
I
But, I wantied
, I
what I sBiy lin
indicatoIjs Ith
tended preePIP
regulatidn.!
state regullat
17.21 that ide
addition Ithie
in the WA:C,I t
pe, sticidels 'I'in
its' sophiisti
licensed lorl r
AgricultJrel,
guideline's Ian
and even 'tol t
end in a Ivelrl y
Environmelntal
19, 1984
issued by the Department
ica or pesticide that's been reg
ngton, and who is using itconsis
ns that have been placed upon it
that chemical or pesticide inrth~
would say, such a person could no
nce which would prohibit an activ
e law. Now that's the short answ
t I would give to the question yo
test to different situations and
f c ntexts. Do the State Driver's
law; does the State pornography statu
ere are alot of cases in this state t
ki ds of things that they l~at, i
D'd the legislature intend for ther
th legislature intend for the state
e S ate fully occupied the field and
om eft for local regulation? Did th
st tewide standards, or did the stat
y b county regulation of the activit
tai ed state regulatory program or is
de ign to be filled in at the local
dif erent ways of stating the same is
n 0 er the regulation of the area? E
ce, I believe, lead to a result that
pre mpti ve appeal.. But before I make
cli ed to do, I would say that the ca
r. ricklin may have alluded to it to
the areas out in California. It was
Su reme Court ruled the other way.
tex there was not preemption. That
o p ohibit aerial application of pest
fur her to say that there was not a f
hin what Mr. Johnston said was corre
fa tors in that case. You'll need t
nse , but in California the regulatio
rou h a state regulatory entity like
The e is a Department of Agriculture
shi kind of arrangement with the loc
ltu al Commissioner, permits are issu
nd here is a working relationship be
th re are two other cases. A New Ha
1 a d a New York case cited in 1983
I haven't done a total, all juris
hree State Supreme Court decision
and New York saying "Yes preempti
And of interest is that New York
ions. In other words, they were
were dissenting judges on both s
etend that it's a very easy and s
to alk about, I've listed here just
ica ors, as I look through the statut
t t e legislature, that indicate that
ion. That they intended for there no
nd, the fi#st is that there is a comp
ry rogram~ We have two chapters of
1 w'th the I regulation of pesticides i
ire tor of It he Department of Agricult
e W shingtqn Administrative Code, on
the state. I Regulation is extensive,
ate Any I person using a pesticide i
gis ered fqr use, needs a permit from
hey need tq follow state statutes, th
re ulatio~s from the sale, acquisiti
row the ch~mical away, it's regulat
com rehens~ve program and in close co
Pro ection Agency. In the statutes t
~ V<Jl
10 f~fGif
o
f Agriculture and
stered for use in
ent with the label
y State law, is
State of Washington.
use that pesticide
ty specifically
r and I, that's the
have. Now, when the
hey've looked at it
license provisions
e prohibit local
at address that kind
what did the legis-
to be local regu-
to be occupying the
egulations such that
State intend there
intend for there to
? Is there a compre-
there a skeleton at
evel. Now all of those
ue, and that is has
ch of those questions
he state has in fact
tsound too easy, which
e that Mr. Johnston,
, most recent of cases
ecided in July and
t ruled that in a
local ordinance was
cides there. The
deral preemption of
t, there are some
review those with
of pesticides is not
he Department of
hat is involved, but
1 counties. The counties
d through the
ween the two. I
pshire case that was
both of whom do
ictionsresearch,
, none in this state
n", California saying
nd California were
ot unanimous decisions
des of the case, so
mple,straight forward,
n my notes, five
s I'm seeing some
the legislature in-
to be room for local
ehensive and detailed
tate law 15.58 and
this state. In
re has issued a chapter
he manner and use of
t is complete, and
this state that's
the Department of
y need to follow state
n, use, distribution
d from beginning to
rdination with the--
ere are at least two
802
Minutes, Week of November 19, 1984
Page 8:
i
I
Nixon Handy (continued): direct references for des're for unifbrm state-
wide regulation. The Director of Agriculture is gi en authority to adopt
regulations for the purpose of uniformity. The Dir ctor of the Department
of Agriculture is authorized to enter into agreemen s of other states
and agencies for the purpose of uniformity. I thin that the legislature
is stressing the need there for a ~niform statewide policy rather than
a piecemeal county by county approach. The state, y third indicator
is tha~ the state recognized that there were local eeds to be addressed.
That w~y we do want to have, and it is important to have a uniform state-
wide pplicy that local jurisdictions and needs in 1 cal areas do vary
and th~ specific authority is granted in 17.21.030 or the Director to
adopt regulations that deal specifically with local area, and it might
be couhty by county it might mean area other than c unty by county that
the Di~ector of the Department of Agriculture for y ars has been issuing
countyl orders and smaller than county orders, in va ious parts of the
state, I to address the applica.tion ()f different kind of, pestici<;les and
this might include, hours of the day when it might e used, it might
includb what pesticides may be used on what kinds 0 crops or c~rcum-
stancels. It poul.d~lprovtde\'an~\ method' of:reg:ulating, the' particu~ar localized
concerp. The most far reaching and wide spread reg lations are in
Easterjn Washington where the use of 2,4-D is common y used on weeds,
but has shown a problem when it gets next to the gr pes, in grape vine-
yards.! There are 2,4~D orders in most of the Easte n Washington counties
that rbgulate the use of 2,4-D from that perspectiv .
I
Now, AI fourth indicator that I've indicated is that
provis~on in ah Chapter 17.21 it'si17.21.305 in whi
has sp~cifically granted a limitied authority to ce
citiesl to be involved in pesticide: regulation, and
is ext~nded to first class cities with a population
or a cpunty where such a city is located and the au
licens~ng and regulation of structural pest control
termit~s in buildings. So we have a specific deleg
and enUmerated counties. I think it's an indicator
felt they already have the authority to do that, th
a needl to make a specific enumeration of that autho
legisl~ture regarded the areaas preempted except in
instanpe they wanted to provide authority to cities
some r~gulation.
,
My fin~l indicator is that there is, while this is ot controlling, there
is no ~ndication, in either of the, state pesticide aws, indicating any
intenti? whatsoever, to pass regulation down to the ounties. There is
just s~mply no statement. When yO\! look at the oth r state environmental
law, l~ke the Forest Practices Act, The Shoreline M nagement Act, Air
and Wa~er Pollution Control laws, there is, in almo t all of those statutes
some k~nd of delegation down of some authority to 1 cal counties and
citiesl, so the differentiation between the state an county is known
it's understood and there is an antempt not to do t at. Here there isn't
any inpication. One of the state laws has been on he books for 24 years
and th~ other has been on, it was enacted in 1961, he oth~r was enacted
in 197~, 14 years and we have bet een 15 and 25 yea s of regulation at
the st~te level with virtually no regulation at the county level. Which
is an ~ndicator to me.of what the original legislat've intent was and
how th~t has been administrativel interpreted by testate and local
jurisd~ctions for some number of ears.
I
i . .
Now let me, I'm taking more time han I expected he e, but let ~e comment
briefl~ on the, 'federal. p;reemption issue. As I indi ated, the California
court has said that there is no f deral preemption. They followed the
analys~s that Mr. Bri~klin gave y u and that is tha Congress may delegate
down tp the states but Congress d esn't have the au hority to tell the
state what it mayor may not dele ~te within it's 0 jurisdiction.
I justl disagree with that analysi~, with all due re pect to the,California
Suprem~ Court. Congress has the authority to retai ' pesticide regulation
and coihtrol entirely at the federch level and not g've it to the states
at alll. In fact, they did pass i down to the stat The provision
that M~. Bricklin read to you is xactly the correc provision. It says
there is a specific
h the legislature
tain counties and
limited authority
of 100,000 or more
hority is to allow
operators that is
tion out to specific
that the legislature
y wouldn't have felt
ity. I believe the
this one limited
and counties to do
:ll
10 'f~t~
o
03
Minut~s, Week of NoveJber 19, 198
Page ~: I
I '
Nixon jHandy (continue i): the sta es may, and it go
~t ~s t at testate ~ay do. In oth the Senate an
behin that provision,1 they have ncluded paragraph
the wdrd state, we me~nt the word state. There was
state land local jurisdiction and e agree that allo
lo~al jjurisdiction is ~ot appropr ate. We have agr
by thel federal government and the fifty states is e
is a slpecific recogni tiion and lan uage deleted, whi
local ijurisdictions to have autho ity ~n the area.
legisl:ative intent th~t regulatiol11 be at the federa
That ~ascially constitlutes my views as ah Assistant
represlenting the Depar1tment of Agt-iculture and I do
object1ions to remarksj , 'm here on relati
I'd bel happy to answe~ any questi, ns or provide som
the meleting if you'd llike me to.
, ,
I I
Chairman Brown: Thankj you. OKay we'll have Ann Co krill then from the,
do you Tom, do you havel anyone els from your side?
Commislsioner Pitts: ~ubs the age da is incorrect i spelling her name,
that ' s! may fault. It'ls "rill".
, ,
Ann Cdckrill: Thank ybu, I am he
of Natpral Resources. I I am an As
that djivision. And I'~ going to
Fores~1 Practices Act a~d how it i
standploint of the Depalrtment of N
In intlerpreting the Folrest Practi
The Folrest Practices Aict does not
of pes~icide applicati~n in a for
that ilt grants you thel authority.
Act iSI intended to be la statewide
Practilces. The legisllature has c
certair authority to t~e counties
The prloviso in the staltute is tha
except! to the extent oltherwise' pe
I think, that is, thatlleads me t
to thel cOhclusion, thajt you do no
, ,
In anallyzing this you ~ust go to
includ!e the Pesticide ~pplication
Nix Hardy spoke about!, and I thi
and thlat would be the Department
that t!o the extent thalt you are p
laws ylou are then gi vjen the auth
toenalct such a regulaition. The
! i
Chairman Brown: Than~ you. Did
Okay.i Then I think that we are
from ~ertain people abbut their
I '
the BOla rd . jl
I
C . I . p' JI. I ' it lea
omm~sls~oner ~tts: !~m, wasn qu e C', rare
WFPA o~ Pope ? !
, ,
Jim Johnston: I'm replresenting t e Washington Fore t Protection Association.
I
I I
Commis!sioner Pitts: Dio you work ,or them?
Jim Johnston: I'm rep!resenting t em las their attor ey in this matter
at thi~ time. I'm notl. in fully on the orest Practices
end. I
, I
Commisjsioner Pitts: clertainly th
from both sides. I ha~e some que
talkedl about the, as ,e know Mark
! I
I I
I
I
I
Tom JaIY: No.
,
,
Chair~an Brown: O.K.
I
e as a representa
istant Attorney G
peak on the narro
pacts your decisi
tural Resources.
es Act, I think t
necessarily prohi
st environment.
It is true that
uniform, regulat
t out four areas
but that author
, the county woul
mitted by law. A
the conclusion,
have such author
he other state st
and the Pesticide
k the connection
f Natural Resourc
eempted under the
rity under the Fo
roviso is found i
s on to detaiL what
the House history
that say, we ~sed
a proposal to say
ing delegation to
e that regulation
ough. And there
h would have allowed
It indicates a clear
and the state level.
Attorney General
not have written
ely short notice.
thing to you after
ive from the Department
neral assigned to
subject of the
n, from the
e conclusion is simple.
it your regulation
ut, I don't th~nk
he Forest Practices
ry scheme for Forest
hat get, giving
ty is not absolute.
have the authority
d it's that qualifier
nd the Department
ty.
tutes, which would
Control Acts that
as been presented
s interpretation
pesticide appl~cation
est Practices Act
RCW 76.09.240.
ou want to sayan thing John or just-
o f.iEpoint now tha we will' ask questions
p esentations, if t ere are any frpm
representing
California case 's very interesting
ti4ns about, for r. Handy, ah you
TW1~n said POli~i s is geography and
V l 10 Ut~ Of ,804
I
Minutes, Week of November 19, 198
Page 10:
Commissioner Pitts (continued):
east and west of
wondering if there ave
in regard to the aerial
West side as it relates
een some
applicati
to forest
this case is more
Eastern Was
specific recommen
n of pesticides 0
y.
than geography,
ington. Now, I was
ations or regulations
herbicides on the
Nixon Handy: Not that I'm aware f, but I haven't ndertaken to take
a look whether there are. I'd ce tainly be willing to go back and take
a look through the various orders that have been is ued over the years
and talk to depar;tment people and find that informa ion out. I do know
that the Chimacum Watershed Assoc ation in 1981 mad a request of the,
in '80 or '81 made a request of t e Department of A riculture to hold
a hearing and take a look at the ossibility of iss ing some kind of
a, some kind of order that would ddress the. proble. As I looked through
the department file, I'm not able to find aresolut'on om the matter,
I think a letter went back asking for more informat on. And, I didn't
see the matter develop farther th n that, so it app ars at least that
there is at least one attempt that I am aware of
the process.
Commissioner Pitts: Well, from t
that there were quite a few, or a
agricultural areas and resulted i
and.' requirements by the Departmen
if you could find anything for me
your presentation. The other que
understand is the Oregon State De
that if there is a complaint made
the Department is required to do
animal tissue, I guess, if.that c
case in the State of Washington?
Nixon Handy: I'm not sure it's
is very, one of their, they have
nothing but respond to complaints
sible, comes out and does that ve
of my work, handling administrati
ators and if someone has not comp
a drift problem for example, or w
whether they are required by law
of that.
Commissioner Pitts: The question
sented to us some six or seven re
of Agriculture and in those, in t
one had been tested as I recall i
I was just wondering if you could
is and wh~s their criteria? I re
time that you make an on site ins
problems with, well, I realize th
have to take a test on every insp
field agent is in the areaand,ma
ha:. or her is stationed to the ar
can participate in a way that the
Nixon Handy: I know that the
complaints, in their regular prac
having samples analyzed, a regula
on an everyday kind of a basis.
where investigators come out, tak
mination as to whether there is e
investigation or not. I suspect
Commissioner Dennison: I have a
that seems to be what happened in
that we've been given, and, you k
is that people that, who's health a
state regulation are the people w
many of them are the people who h
problem, overspray or whatever, a
says no you don't have a problem.
e information tha I get, I assume
least public hea ings, in the Eastern
a number of spec'fic recommendations
of Agriculture. So, I would appreciate
also something wr'tten in regard to
tion I had was in egards to what I
artment of Agricu ture's requirement
by a citizen, and there is an overs pray
ampling of water r vegetation or even
mplaint is made. Now, is that the
equired, but the epartment of Agriculture
he investigative ivision that does
and actually ot necessarily respon-
y sort of samplin. A very big part
e hearings"that ' applicators, oper-
ied with the labe or have
atever. But, you specifically asked
o do that. I'm, guess I'm not aware
stems from the fa t that we had pre-
orts that were ma e of the Department
e six or seven co plaints, ah, only
looking through hat information.
find that out for me, what the status
lize that you can't take tests every
ection and, possib y there is even some
t you can't, you on't necessarily
ction. But, it s ems that once the
es the trip from lympia or whereever
a, should be some ay that the citizen
should have a wa er .......
rtment is in the ourse of investigating
ice and business f taking samples,
part of their wo that they're doing
think we have a ituation, most likely
a look ata situ tion, and make a deter-
ough indicators t at merit further
hat's the situatio .
VOL
1 0 rAG~
uestion about that
the preponderance
ow, what I see as
d safety are bein
o are, who.,don't
ve called up and s
d the regulatory
Now, I, you know,
because in fact,
f cases, at least
ne of the main problems
protected by the
t protected and
id, ah, we had a
dy comes out and
I mean I can't judge
Minutes, Week of November 19, 198
Page 11:
Commissioner Dennison: whether those people are co
a sample, but what I heard the ot er night at our h
in fact, the department was required to take a samp
Nixon Handy: I'm just not aware of that. I'm willi
at the statutes and regulations an talk to departm
what their policy is too, it's just an issue I've n
I know for a fact, because of the case of handled 0
thing we have that goes to hearing is very well doc
chemists reports and...!
to say without
was that
time. . . . . . .
g to take a look
nt of officials about
ver encountered before.
their behalf, every-
mented and includes
Nixon Handy: D.S.H.S. becomes in
have some authority with respect t
purveyors and also the Department
respect to the water contro
these situations where a
Natural Resources, for the Forest
Commissioner Pitts: Let t I talked with
the chemist, who made that stateme t and he said th
off of that. He knew that that was a requirement 0
but did not know and that's why it's being questiop
I
oled in these s~ too. They
drinking waterl ontrols and water
f Ecology has s? e authority with
statutes. So ~ 's not uncommon in
1 three or evenl he Department of
ractices, be cal~ din.
hat~g man afterwards,
t he had to back
the State of Oregon
d.
Commissioner
and I wanted
you, I think
reference to
Pitts: I have a ques
to see if this was a
you said, I don't thi
the Forest Practices
Commissioner Dennison: But, the 1 ad authority is he Department of
Agriculture. \l'
Ann Cockrill: Oh, Okay, what I me
have the authority to regulate tha
authority under the Forest Practic
counties to regulate, in so far as
an absolute authority. It's quali
by law. And if you're otherwise p
Practices Act doesn't then give ri
sing which I, Ian say we, are the
sing, and the u~ r control and that
in tl:'e State of W~ hington not just
company that i~, say is
fbr vegetation ~ nagement is going
t of Agriculture.
,
ion for Ann Cock ill. You stated,
orrect statemen~, number one that
k it grants youl he authority with
ct. Is that cor ect?
I
Ann Cockrill: Is that correct tha I said that? !
,
I
at I wrote downl In reference to
ink it grants y~ the authority.
I
Ann Cockrill: Maybe I should, I'm not sure how yov are interpreting
that so... I
Commissioner Pitts: That's why I' asking the quer
nt by that is, ~
is you ~
s Act. The Fore
the public healt
ied by, except ~
ohibited or pre~
e to the authorf..
I
hat mean? What I
it would be th~
,all ,inc,luSive, I'
is little glich
t says that youl
ve some degree ?
I
,
I
he Forest Practi es Act, of course,
es. It discuss~ public health
'msorry.. !
I
ing to ask, is t , which Act came
Nixon Handy: We regulate the lice
lead agency. We regulate the lice
type of thing, of all pesticide us
from agricultural uses. Any timbe
aerial or spraying say 2,4-
to have a lcense from the Departme
Commissioner Pitts: Yes, that's
the Forest Practices Act I don't
you do not otherwise
e not granted the
t Practices Act allows
, but that's not
erwise permitted
ted, the Forest
Commissioner Dennison:
first?
oes that clause in
e if, I mean if,
stem of regulation
ould be in there
n, in fact ,for
control at the local
Commissioner Dennison: What does
there mean? I don't understand wh
in fact, we have this comprehensiv
I don't understand how it could, t
where in the Forest Practices Act
public health and safety reasons h
level. I. ..
Ann Cockrill: Well, that part of
isn't adressed strictly toherbici
and safety in general. I would,
~ VOl
10' r'" 0 culh.
,,':' fleE.' 3O'U
.. i
Minutes, Week of Nove'ber 19, 1984
Page 12:
Ann Cockrill: The Pe~ticide Appli~ation Control Ac s.
Commissioner Dennisonl Came before the Forest Prac ices . .,.
Ann Cockrill: The FoJest Practicep Act was enacted in 1974', which was
ah, the Control Act w4s in 1971 anp. the Application Act was' in '61. It's
a long after the fact~ '
Commissioner Dennison: So, in oth~r words, well, I
~ e w at t ey re o~.g creates a real dilemma ther
Practices Act, which ~,Iave,' which pr-esumably gives th
happened after the au~hority was taken away, by the
Ann Cockrill: I thinJ,' my "point h~re is tha,t the F
itselt does not give ~ou that authority. It's a re
authority where it ex1sts and where it doesn't othe
give rise to new auth.rity. I think that it was an
of the legi~lature to.recc:gnize that, well that cer
some except~ons to th~, un~f,orm SCh9" ol of forest' pra
nize such otherthing~ as countyz(ming and plannin
attitude that activit]'es and the public health is
otherwise exist.. .
Commissioner Pitts:r. Bricklin"ah, Mr. Handy ma
ah, tederalregulatio s or laws, authority, is give
specifically said sta e means stat~ and state and 1
was rejected and in y ur presentat}on you said stat
jurisdictions.
1
still, It's seems
, becau~e the Forest
author'ity, ah,
Pesticide Acts.
rest Practices Act
ognitioh of county
ise ex!ist it doesn't
effort on the part
ainly tb carve out
tices apd to recog-
by showing the
, where
CommLPit:ts: ' I real~ze I don't stt, like in the middle
of here for attorneys I everyday bUr'
Dave Bricklin: As I Jasgoing to say, that's the s t of distinction
lawyers and we spend ~onths doing legal research an ah send cases to
trial for it and the ~ppellate court and the Supreme ourt.. That's how
you get those sorts o~ issues resolved. The, one 0 the, ppints that
I made though that I ~'hink ,bears renumeration is t at what the United
State Supreme Court h.s said in this matter, and yo can't go any higher
than that. As I said, they said the division of th e powe~s within
the state rests in thl absolute discretion of the st te and that Mr.
Handy said was the th~me of the retent California st te decision. Once
Congress gives this pdwer to the state, it can't tie the state's hands
and tell-the state ho;: amongst it's various agencies and subjurisdictions
it can utilize that p ,were So you,have that not onl in this recent
California case but y u als,o have beard frqm the Uni ed Stat:es Supreme
Court. And, that's were I was saying that, you kn , if you ihave no
ambiguous statute on ;.'itIS: face, you' don't start look' g at the legislative
history and what this committee did. That ,the cour s arriv~ when you're
talking about how unr,lyable that history is, and I ould gp to the extent
that you have committ~eshere at tl[1e County Commissi ners level, but
you're familiar with ~he statements that you're, ce ainly Congress,
what one committee does ordoesn't'do, one committe or a sub-committee
can hav.e ..five ,or nineJ.',',peo,pl.e, or oU,t, O,f ,435(,represen tives~. n congress,'
So the courts or very reluctant to take something 0 of a committee
report which nine peo ,le may be,signed off on and s , that was the sense
of Congress. They don't like to do that. And that's why tpey only wolf
through those things ~n the very least of circumst nces which there's
a problem. If I coul~ comment on one other thing d that: is regarding
the conflict test tha~. Mr. Handy was talking about. One thing that the
courts frequently loo '" a,t i,S that ~verytime one juri diction allows some-
thing and other prohiits it, that I is not necessaril , that! is not nec-
essarilya conflict,,' ~'.,t l,..ea.,st for p.reemPtion purposs. It m, i,ghts,eems
like that to you or m , but the courts do like to 1 t agencies of govern-
ment that are closer 0 a problem and have whatever,
allow some flexibilit,. And, you See that or ~nst ce ~n ~ghway regula-
tions, you see, despi~e the fact that you have inte tate trucks traveling
the roads, all acrosslthe country, 1 you have regulati ns on the size and the
number of those, you 1d.now,piggy back trucks. One sate cah prohibit
them, another allows tJhem. That ct-eates a problem r the ~nterstate
truckers and it's certJainly inconsistent with the fe eral regulatory
scheme, and yet the c1urt has saidiin the name of p lic sa~ety, we will
I
e the statement that
in, the! past, they
cal jurisdictions
also m~ant local
~ Vou
Dave Rricklin on occa ion allow those
n w at t ey 00 t ~s not simply whether there i
have a deeper analy i than that, aid they look to
conflict that can b ,orked around,! if you will,: or
puts somebody in a rldicament and. hey just can't
systems. ~nd, the so ',. t of con~lict that you have h
puts-ac' t~mber com al y in a s~tuat. on where they c
systems. If you ha e.a ban or a mo atorium of aeri
here in Jefferson C u!ty, they can, till spray in e
in the state and it diesn't create' problem for th
contrast that with if.1 you said, the label on pestic
state the following i~formation, it must be in b.1ac
ever, then you have airealProblem, because they're
products across state., ines, a,cross c!, untylines and i
a different label 0 heir pesticid drums in Jeffe
different one in What<rom County andi a different one
Washington. Those ari:,.., the , sorts of! conflicts th...at
with, because there yu put the pri; ate party in a
very difficult posi in. Compare t at situation he
have that sort of c lict and I'd · ike the Commiss
of that. :t!..i
Chairman Brown: Ot questions?
then on the herbici well, Tom
I
Tom Jay: If there' toom I'd just ike to add one
I
Chairman Brown: On tlie legal aspec s?
,
Minute$~ Week
Page 13.:
Tom Jay: Yes, it's
the, and maybe one
to me that there ar
people had a ban on
up through the cour
of the key differen
has always had this
And, that was very
in the fact that yo
constitutes regulat
constitutes a kind
the application of
a regulation period
have covered. I'm'
addressed as to it'
ban. Everybody is
not our intent. Ou
what it's effect is
So I'd like somebod
Commissioner Pitts:
Nixon Handy, ?
an t ~n t e way
at the validity of
not, harkening back
ago, you're regulat
a moratorium as opp
seems to me, could
or unreasonably. I
from our perspectiv
forever. However,
you can call ~ a t
ition of the Use of
prohibition. Preem
would still apply,
you got to that sec
ta~lored your regul
a factor in there.
(Unidentified Attor
9, 1984
sorts of confli
a c nflict, th
ee wether it's
one hich reall
pera e under bo
re, isn't one t
n't ork with b
1 he bicide spr
ery other count
m. Compare tha
de containers m
, white or red,
marketing these
can't start ha ing
son County and
over in Eastern
he co rts or co cerned
eally, you know,
e, were you do 't
oners to be awa e
kay, that will
e our pre entations
question that I don't think w s add essed whe
f the attorneys I can address it It's always 0
iarious compar'sons with the C lifor ia, Mendi ino
t e spr,ay of ph'noxy herbicides Tha case went
s you all know the history of hat 0 course. One
$ I think, the Coalition has, nd th Coalitio
i~,'tent., Our in,ent was for am rato,r'um not a
~ar and I thin that there is real differenc
'je establishin a moratorium, hethe or not t at .
,. Because, b; sically from ou poin of view it
IPostponment t gain research 'nto t e problem of
ns thing. It ,s a refinement eriod, not necessarily
II think, that~s a point that one 0 the at to neys
t curious. AI moratorium itse f was never specifically
'ntent and wha it is really a out. It is not a
cting to it a' a ban, but it sn't. That's
'ntent is to fnd out about th se pe ticides, d
~s not a ban. ilf they're prov n saf that's fi e.
o address tha .
,
,
'd like to her this side fir
I
Well, I think I when you look a a good point
would see it ~s as follows~ court is looking
~ocal regulati~n and whethe~ t easonable or
Q the discussi n of Mr. Brickl few minutes
Js have to be 'easonable. The hat you propose
.",d a prohibiti' n" and uncondit onal rohibitio
a factor as t whether you we e act'ng reasona ly
ther words, a short term mora orium, would at least
, Ibe more reaso able than a ban, an 0 tright ban
,is still regu,ation. Instead of ca ling it a an
~e year ban orla two year ban, it's till a pro ib-
rbicides. So~ it's still reg latio. It's still
'on analysis i$ not changed!.. e pr emption an lysis
J.ls jus,t that t:,e question of, r asona leness, if
q step, wasyolr action reason le, hen how yo
~on would of curse be a facto and that
I
I
Yi) : I don't
~~nL
1 0 r~fG~
Commissioner Pitt: I'lm not looking for anybodYI.
Mr. Handy: That would be done with a State Agr~CUl ure p rmit subject
::a:::a:e::::~on~nYt1ing else from either side!?
Commissioner Pitts: ]' d just like to thank thel Sta
I know I had several qonversations with Ann and
as with Ken and Tom fior their work. !
HEARING re:1 Proposed Budget Appropria!tion
Chairman Brown openel t e earing an a ter no .one
or against the propos,d budget appropriation for th
Chairman Iclosed the hiaring, I
Commissidner Pitts moved to approve Resolution !No.
Budget ARpropriation for the Jefferson County L!aw L
of $1,800.00. Commislioner Dennison seconded the m
Minutes. Week of Novelber 19, 1984
Page 14: - !.
(Dave Brickl n?)
(Unidentified Attorne ):
w ~c was tat, ]ust,ecause you have a con
one sense of the word doesn't mean that you have a
course is going to sa!" irreconcilable and one :of t
And, it's just really further evidence of the f1act
try can work with thi, sort of a regulation on Ithe
still can spray in otful er counties. Further eVil,denc
a conflict that makes it impossible for the timber
is that it's a short ~erm moratorium and therefiore,
same sort of prOblemSi.. that a, permanent ban wou l....d,. cr
my final point would ,e that you've heard alot ifrom
and the loks at the ver~oft
would be, if I could ut myself in your positiop fo
there's going to be, tj:here' s an unresolvable leigp,l
least unreasolvable by the County Board of Commissi
matter what the Board. does there is going to beithe
by one side or the otero Each side has reasonable
put forward. And, I hink what that, how the B!oard
to do what you feel i right. That if you think th
you ought to put a mo atorium in, and direct your P
or any other attorney. to defend that moratoriu~, be
heard good reason why I it's defenseable. And ifl, you
is not appropriate th,n don't pass a moratorium. A
come to that you can ;ell the Prosecuting AttorAey
Because you think YOUl,lve heard reason why that 'Is,' de
think the legal issue.will come down to is a null s
of view. You've got leasonable grounds on eithler s
up to the Board of Co~missioners to do is decidle, f
policy point of view, I do you want a moratorium br d
you direct the Prosec ting Attorney to utilize ~hos
support of whatever y ur position is.
Commissioner Pitts:
to you regulate or do
registered in DNR, of
of herbicides?
have another question ofi Mr.
you investigate the activiitie
the power lines and also the
Mr. Handy: You mean 10adside applications?
,
I
Commissioner Pitts: jight.
Mr. Handy: If for ex mple, someone were to vio~ate
an application, incon istently with the label. I Tha
of the State pesticid laws and would be subjec~ to
I was just trying to think if there was anyonelels
in~the state. I
VOL
10 rME
rtJa80
I
on our last point
sn't, you know in
conflict which of
em h s to give way.
hat the timber indus-
ount level. They
that this is not
ndustry to operate,
does not create the
ate, and I guess maybe
the attorneys today
n, a , my thought
a minute , is that
ssue ere. Or at
ners, obviously no
basis for challenge
legal arguments to
is t at you ought
t yo want a moratorium
osec ting Attorney,
ause ou think you've
feel that a moratorium
d, if it were to
o defend that po~ition.
ensea le. What I
t, from your point
de an what it's
om the substantive
n't you. And then
loop arguments in
Mr. Handy
I know you're
ighway use
the 1 bel in making
woul be a violation
regul tion. Yes.
who is regulating
coming
9-84 Order;
rary in the amount
:f:ion.
Brian Shelton explain
considered apart from
Works Department was
program and this revi
Chairman Brown closed
against the Revised p
sign Resolution No. 8
Program 1985-1990.
Removal of
Commissioner P~tts mo
to approve Resolution
contributions to the
1, 1985.
come:
t emotion
he emPloyees
ive January
Minutes,
Page .15:
Pitts,
r a budget
of Commissioner
n No. 81-84.
Chairman
or, Brian
ne and what
Road Program.
d that in the past the Urpan
the six year transportatibn p
dvised that these project: she
ed Program includes thesel pro
the hearing when no one appear
ogram. Commissioner Pittpmo
-84 Revised Six Year Transpor
mm~ssioner Dennison seconded
Project were
The Public
part of this
peak for or
approve and
Improvement
ion.
HEARING re: Leland Creek B
was opened at t e app ~nte t~me y airman
Public Works Director, reported that the timberibri
Leland Creek on Rice ake Road which leaves Hig~way
Quilcene, is in such oor repair that traffic, ~ncl
traffic should not be allowed to cross it. Theitim
The property owners i that area need the acces$ to
this bridge affords. Alternative accesses have: bee
as replacement struct res. The cost of replace~ent
$20,000 to $45,000. he County would have to c~mply
standards if it were to replace the bridge which.wo
24 to 28 feet in widt , which is really not necessar
the State standard wo Id have to be applied fori to p
such as a 16 to 18 foot one way bridge. .
Jack O'Gorman advised ~hat he had just come from tha
bridge is not passable at all now. He owns 20 acres
are about 20 property owners involved in that area a
quite a bit in the su ertime.
Chairman Brown closed the hearing when no one el$e,a
Commissioner Pitts moved to approve the closure'<(>f t
Bridge. Commissioner ennison seconded the motion.
then asked that the Pu lic Works Director pursu~neg
property owners in regard to the County replacing th
property owners taking over the road beyond theibrid
Ifhe hearing
Brian Shelton,
t crosses
st North of
edestrian
ders are failing.
property that
d into as well
ures ranges from
State and national
n a structure
variance from
in a structure
are and the
up t ere. There
d th road is used
pear d. to~ speak.
e Le and Creek
Comm ssioner Pitts
tiat ons with the
bri ge and the
e.
Request for right-of-
property owners were
Hadman's request that
Hedman who is the own
behind the Hadlock Ho
reported that the fou
If this property was
the southern portion
BUSINESS FROM COUNTY
After discussion of t e possible alternatives, Comm'ssion r Pitts moved
to deny Mr. Hedman's equest and not change the sta s of the right-of-
way. Commissioner De nison seconded the motion..
PARTMENTS:
PUBLIC WORKS DEPART~NT
Quit Claim by Darylaedm e adjacent
oti ~e y t e Pu ic Works nt, of Mr.
County right-of-way be qu!t c back to Mr.
r of Tax lot 156. The propert estion is
se and Murray Auto Parts ~n H dlock. Brian Shelton
responses received) all oPpos d thi action.
iven back to Mr. Hedman, acce s to ax Lot 69 and
f Tax Lot 137 would be cutl of .
,
VOL
1 0 rAC~
o 38 0
Minutes, Week of Nove ber 19, 1984
Page 16:
Resolution No.
Resolution No.
Resolution No.
.......
The hearing for the C
2:00 p.m. December 17
the hearing for the B
to be held December 1
Center.
Shorelines Permit App
~s propos~ng to pace
his property which is
Road on the east side
of protective rock at
property, Mitch Press
The Planning Departme
subject to the follow
in accordance with an
2) All rock materials
the toe of the bluff
high water mark.
The Shoreline Subs tan
was approved with the
ment on the motion of
Dennison.
Final
parce
lots,
Sinsibough
rev~ewe t e set ac
wishes to place a two
portion of the Becket
undefined width and h
that roadway. The re
to the bank being six
Department is current
placement will have 0
and a County-
ons were
Commissioner
Inten~ to Create a Countywi
Distri,ct.
Intent! to Create the Quilce
Sub-zone District.
Intent to Create the Brinno
zone :qistrict.
Control Zone
Control
control Sub-
untywid~ Flood Control Zone D
1984 i~ the County Commissio
innon and Quilcene Flood Cont
, 1984 at 7:00 p.m. in the Qu
t will be at
Chambers, with
b-zone Districts
Community
PLANNING DEPARTMENT
ication No. SHll-84; John,Nes
a moor~~g uoy ~n scovery
approximately one-eighth mile
of the qay. He is also propo
the base of an eight foot hig
Associate Planner, explained
,
Mr. Nessett
the shore of
of Woodman
he placement
f along his
e Board.
t recommends approval of the
ng two ciondi tions : 1) The b
applicaible U. S. Coast Guard
used fo~ protecting the bluff
nd be id substantial alignmen
ed project
all be marked
tions, and
be placed at
the ordinary
ial Deveilopment Permit Applic
condi tioins as recommended by
Commissfoner Pitts, seconded
No. SHll-84
anning Depart-
missioner
This_short
w ~c i~s eing split intot
, Assistiant Planner reported.
artment iand the Planning Depa
ommissioper Dennison moved to
-84. Co~missioner Pitts seco
lat 's a 7 acre
o eq al 3.4 acre
The Health Depart-
tmen approvals
appr ve the Mark
ded he motion.
iance R~quest: Planning ,Dire
ar~ance irequest of Mr. Sinsib
story g~rageon his property
Point ~oad. He has a privat
s garag~ is going to be withi
son for placing the garage in
feet from the backside of the
y revie~ing this proposal to
the drainfields in the area.
David Goldsmith,
Mr. Sinsibough
e upper
way of an
ve feet of
anner is due
e. The Health
at affect this
Commissioner Dennison moved tOi approve the variance
Mr. Sinsibough with t e condit'ion that he have the
Health Department. C mmissioder Pitts seconded the
Time Oil Company; Sig
~n accor ance w~t t
would need to reduce
is no higher than the
Height ~ariance request: Th ning department
m~t~gative measures, a vised Oil that they
he heig~t of their sign by th ee f et so that it
existingi canopy over the gas ,umps.
The proponent has adv sed that: in order to be in co plia ce with a
highway department re uirement! the bQttoro of the si n ha to be 13~ feet
'WI..
10 t~~
o
Minutes,
Pa&e 17;
Pla:n ing Department
Time Oil: above the
inches higher than t
19, 1984
conti
make the t
sign six
Commissioner Denniso
as requested by Time
app ove the varianc from the sign height
Co issioner Brown seconded the motion.
,
Levine Sawmill Opera
epartment a een
Erwin Jones and the
the Levine Chipper 0
Hood Canal: David G ldsmith, 'Plan ing Director re rted that the Washington
State Ecological Com ission will b holding hearin on the 27th and
28th of November to iscuss the re ults of their.p vious hearings and
implementation of the Hood Ca*al P licy which is "s'nce the Hood Canal
area is one of the u tque values a d resources of s atewide significance
it is the policy of the State'to i sure that allac ions and programs
affecting Hood Canal are evaluated for their impact on environmental
quality and decisions are mad~ giv'ng the protectio and enhancement
of the environment t e highes1j: pri rity."
athanson advise that the Planning
raig Ritchie wil be working with
Environmental I pact Statement for
The proposal is to do the followin
* Establish a "Hood Canal Task For to begin impl
purpose of reviewing each p~rmit to determine it'
quality; wildlife; shellfis1:1. and fisheries resour
and recreation; sta ility 0# sho eline slopes,er
tion; scenic and aesthetic ~alues; and loss or re
face wetlands. The Task Force will be staffed by
Ecology, which, it i.s David1s fe ling, would leav
wrong jurisdiction. .
mentation, for the
impact on water
es; public access
sions and sedimenta-
uction of water sur-
the Department 9f
these tasks in the
* Reinstitute the Hoo Canal Advis
* Also want to assist local govern ents in pre par in
line Management Mas er progiam elements consisten
I
* An inventory and an lysis of all the sewage
in Hood Canal.
* Look at sewage syst
the purpose of dete
look at certain areas
f a sewage system sho
new or amended Shore-
with the guidelines.
systems on site
Hood Canal for
go in.
* Look at new
policy.
* Enforcement - said hat they sho ld identify key ndividuals as contact
points for local goernments and citizens.
Commissioner Pitts ad ised that if there is going t be some sort of
advisory level board stablished th t board should dvise someone beside
the State, such as th County iCommissioners involve. He stated further
that Ray Ardahl, Annete McGee and e are represent tives from the Hood
Canal area for the Puet Sound Wate Quality Commit ee that has just
been formed, and poss'bly thi~ grou would be appro riate for a Hood
Canal Board. I
terms of the categori s mentioned in the
David Goldsmith repor
Master Program is the
issuance of sewage di
are outside the Shore
and upland logging, a
Hood Canal. The item
process get a good sc
ed that :he do sn't feel the
culprit iin th problems along
posal p~rmits for single fami
ines Ac~ as w II as DSHS wate
1 of th~se th'ngs contribute
that gq thro gh the Shorelin
utiny. I
horeline Management
Hood Canal. The
y residences which
quality activities
o the problems in
Management permit
The Board directed Da id Golds'mith 0 draft a lette for their signature
to have him present a these qearin s on the 27th a d the 28th.
,
, VOL
1 0 fAt~
0'1 . 2
,U
Minutes,
Page 18:
19, :1984
Planning Department b
Kim McBride Building
accept proposa A- a
1984 and to withhold
is removed. Commissi
ion: Commissio er Pitts moved to
ri e's letter d ted November 19,
of occupancy u til the Guesthouse
econded the mot on.
Harry Pollard
Grounds: arry Po a
most of the Senior ci
activities at a build
city. Commissioner D
, received from the sen
e; Proposed ~ome Economic 'Bu, lding at Fair
, reaslurer or t e air Boa , note t at
zens he had alked to felt t at having their
g at toe Fai gounds was too ar out of the
nison noted hat that wasth feed back he had
r citizens h had talked wit about the building.
Commissioner Pitts ad
talked with also felt
their first choice bu
amount of money and c
transportation.
sed thait he
he fairjgroun
they allso re
ices may hav
isagreed, that
s are not the m
ognize that the
to be made tha
he seniors he had
st convenient or
e is only a certain
revolve around
The Fair Board welcom
groups, but alot hing
application for build
has a print of the pr
After further discuss
and other possible gr
moved to have Commiss
interested parties si
seconded the motion.
,
partidipati
on ho'W the
g fundsl. Th
osed b'4ildin
n of the nee
ps int~reste
ner Dennison
down and see
n in ,use ofth
tate Fair Board
Fair Board Pre
, Harry Pollard
buildings by other
looks on their
ident, Gary Minshull,
reported.
s and concerns
in this buil'di
organize a meet
what can be don
f the senior citizens
g, Commissioner Pitts
ng to have all
Chairman Brown
The meeting a
with all Board member
ourned !Monda
present' .
evening andi'e onvened Tuesday
Sheriff Lee S
Brown reporte or t
to pay a minimum of $
Clerk to compile the
figure will be depend
State. If the full $
be the cityls share.
be asked to contribut
County Commissioner w
of this clerk.
: FEMA: Chairman
Townsend has agreed
mergency Services
Program. The $4,300
ceived from the
rec~ived that will
tate the city will
, the Mayor and one
tee for the hiring
Building Perm
seconded omm~ss~oner
building permit fee t
Commissioner Dennison
efund of the $25.00
hairman Brown will
lity Board to fill
M. O'Meara.
uest for 4th Quarter
quarter a ocat on
ciety was approved
seconded by Commissioner
Recrealtion :pirector re: R~c eation Involvement
The Recreati n Department is aware, Warren
their s:ervic s to ya.rt:h dwindle 0_ :areas.'fur-ther put
's not mUch i the way of op- oing recreation
'n the Cpunty especially thro gh the Community
ted to Warre by Lois Smith Director of Juvenile
in lieM of rograms in the lounty area, the
where no se vices are provi ed could be given
ates fo~ the Community Cente s.
vo:
1 0 r~t~
O.
81.3
I
Minutes, Week of Nove ber 19, 1984j I
Page 19:
Rents from the Commun"ty Cent~rs, arrJn advised, g
County cu, rrent Expens fund aV..,d he lest:U.."mates that.., r
groups may account fo approx~mately $20 to $50 per
Lois Smith asked that if there is nlot ~n on-going r
being provided to Qui cene and TriJArea youth, that
some way to make the ental fees to the youth group
Department subsidy.
back into the
nts from youth
month.
creation program
possibly there is
a Recreation
Warren advised that h
Quilcene and Tri-Area
are in regard to this
. ,
would <!,.,.onta~t tH.,..e AdviSOry, B
Communi~y Ce ter~ to see wnat
matter. . ;
i i
er comm4nity Center Property:
ad inqu~ries fro~ the gardine
status qf the bu~lding on tihe
en that ,the an that purchase
n notif~ed se er~l time to re
ards of the
their feelings
Building on the Gardi
reported that he had
Advisory Board on the
The board advised War
public auction has be
Warren further
Community Center
Center's property.
the building at
ove the building.
Commissioner
to approve
ong. One in the
14.55.
the
and
ILLS: The balan
,ere reviewed 'by
October and
Commissioner
The meeting was recessed and Ireconvened a
Tri Area Community Ce ter to hear test~mony regardi
moratorium on the aer'al appl~cati06 oe herbicides.
j. I
p.m. at the
proposed
1) Are there he lth COn$ider~tio~,S related to the use of
aerially applied pesticides? :
2) Are there 10 g-term.4nd" Sllort~term effects of water
contami~tio by aer,.allY .pp~,ied pesticid s?
The following tabim transc ipt~on of the ta e recording of that
meeting. I I
Chairman B.G. Brown: Are there he~lth iconsideratrio s related to the
use of aerially appli d pesticides?, Ttie number two question is are there
long term and short term effedts o~ watler contam:lna ion by aerially
applied, pesticides? ach side willi have 30 minutes to present their
side of the story. T ey will IthenJtak~ questions, 'n the past the County
Commissioners asked t e quest~ons. Tonight we're g ing to let the questions
be passed to the people who a~e re resenting each s de and they can ask
them of the opposite side. So, Wi~'h that, if the i dustry wants to present
their case on- are th re health co siderations rela ed to the use of
aerially applied pesticides w~ll, en?'
Ken Hillman: Yes, Chairman Brqwn, the ~uthor, Frank Dost from Oregon
State University,Exte sion TO~icol9gis~, will start off.
, I
bic~des: TriAre
ndaf!.ce sheet at
atorium on the a
The following t
rs for the prqpo
Community Center:
he second public
rial application
o question were to
ents and opponents
Aerial Appl'cation qf He
Seventy-nine people signed th$ att
meeting to address the propos~d mo
of herbicides in Jefferson Co~nty.
be addressed by pre-a ranged ,speak
of the issue:
"...
~ V~L I :l 0 f~IGt
.0 13 14
,
Minutes, Week of Nbve ber 19, 1984
Page 20:: I
Dr. Frank Dost: I ~ou d sugge$t that we are a~ a ,se
when I say we, I'mi ta king about t e whole as~emble
about, a 30 minutes! ti e frame ,to discu~s,evenlto 'in
of a problem. Butl, t e first; thin that I want to
our situation is h~re. We originally, iand as Ithis
with us by represeptaives of l,pope and':.Talbot~! we..re
had thought that ther would ~e so~e k~nd of form
the County Commiss~on and theie was ap~arentl ami
I want to clarify ~he basis o~ the par~icipat~onof
in this hearing, beca s~, it ~urne ou~ this ~s ~n
and I want to assu~e ou our participa~ion in Ith~s
of pesticide use. I Be ause we ireally h~ve no ~ntere
the issue beyond the ery straight for~ard qu~st~on
health impactsof p~st'cides. ;It's ery immaterial
are used here or ap.yw ere else. 0 r p~ofessiqnal a
sibility is to eva~ua e prese~t and po~entiallrisks
humans, wildlife, ~iv stock a~d any other biOlog~ca
responsibility to ~se all of ~he data, igo as ar ,as
and go no farther ~ha the data will p~rmit u. An
about those respon~ib'lities I would e~,pect t at "yo
us. We feel that pur purpose iin co ing here 's to
with information, br ources of inform~tion .tHat 'ar
a decision. And, ~he problem 'that you have Ilthi.nk
either to take wha~ w say at !face al~e, whiqh I t
unless you have cOfIlpl te confi,dence in lour intieg1:"it
or to tak~ the recpmm ndations, and.sta~emenm 9hat w
put them ~n the hapds of toxiqolog~sts,1 let' ssay a
Washington. Some o~ t e ery best i the coun ryin
toxicology are at ~he Un vers~ty of Wa$hingto. An
or have them recom~en p ople to e alu~te the state
comfortable with t~e ro osal that e ~ould m ke~
,
I think that it's hec
a couple of diagra~s
behind, but I have! th
schemes. It's not: po
in any detail, but: wh
ments are made in ~ v
an interaction of k c
has certain propertie
actions depend on yer
And, we can reach ~on
behave and we can bbs
,
we're talking abouF t
way it is transpor~ed
that is broken do~,
make the same kindi of
down, how it trave~s,
and so on. And th~se
and physical response .
all behave in an oFde
,
,
The other diagram ~'v
curve. And all th~t'
that you have an ipte
The, there is a ve~y le
as the dose increa~es, t
I
the response decreases.
and that is the kihd f
cern to,you right per
talking about cancer,
of effects have aver
impact. And it cah b m
effects, then we c~nn t
assume that as the! dose
go down and the mopel'ng
. . I .
we use, ~n a very ~tr ~g
the probability corti ue
a point where from! a eg
equivalent to zeroj. i
runs on the order bf to-
ry, ~nd I, yoJ'll ha e to
I wanted to give yo and
iginql. d Bill the e are
le to disc ss Ithe tmticolo
do ~ant to e~plain ~o you
orde~ly fashion. We 'Ire ita
cal with a bidlogiCaJ syst
he b~ological I,system ha~ p
raigHt forwarq laws hat a
ions I. ,about the way tqat :"a
the 'way it behaves ~n the
rgan~sm, t e way the 'Imater
the body, hene it's store
led :lln the body, how lit's
ervations in the env~ronme
re it stops, whether !itmo
all ,very straight fdrward
Ther: are 0 I11agic c~emi.ca
fash1on. I I I '
,
ven you is a Very st aight
r is Ito gi e you an 'dea w
ion betwee a .chemic land
r re1atio ship betwe n gos
e re&ponse inQreases, as t
If you are dealing w'th :no
mpac~ that al~ of th cnem
ave.,' Whe I~ay non-fgertet
re nq, t, ta,lkina,., about~mut.,at
ear ~ower level belo whic
asur~d. Ilf you're t lking
se tije co~cep~ of thcl thre
oes ~'.,o.wer, the.., proba~ili..ty
that :~s used Hy regu~atory
t forward dose/resporlsere
to go do~ arid down!and d
lato~y st~:ndpqint it [carl b
h meqns t at tf you ~ave
or 10-7 hic1:t means one
l"O
!
,
Ut~
I
11
ious disadvantage,
ge, when we're talking
roduce this kind
o,is to explain what
uestion was discussed
identified and we
1 communication with
understanding there.
Dr. Witt and myself
dvocacy proceeding
s not as proponents
t, whatsoever, in
of the potential
o us whether they
d our academic respon-
to the health of
entity. It's our
the data demands,
if you have questions
would call upon
rovide a public body
useful in making
is that you have
ink would be foolish,
and our competence,
make and perhaps
the University of
the area of pesticide
have them evaluate
ents, if you're not
orgive me, I had
left the copies
are some very brief
y of the chemicals
is that these judge-
king about ultimately,
m. And that chemical
operties, those inter-
e very well established.
hemical ought to
real system. Whether
al is absorbed, the
, how it's metabolized,
xcreted. We can
t. How it's broken
es in soil and water
biochemical, chemical
s. These things
forward dose response
at's happening anytime
a biological system.
age and response. And
e dose decreases
-genetic effects,
cals that are of con~
c I mean, we're not
ons. And those kinds
there is not an
about carcenogenic
hold, we have to
will continue to
agencies is such that
ationship in which
wn until it reaches
considered essentially
cancer risk that
ance in 10 million
Dr. Dost: Seratogenes
of birth defects. An
that is the kind that
early in gestation an
defect that has arise
Minutes, Week ber 19, 1984 I'
Page 21: 1
Dr. Frank Dost: or e chanci in mi lion o~one chance in 10 million,
you're talking about isks that ar of the sa'e or er as that of drinking
a pint of milk a day or six ~onth orlliving in a stone house instead
of a wooden one or t ing a tt-ans- ontinental trip to New York. Those
are all cancer risks, understand. You're liv ng w'th them all the time,
in a world where you' e current ri k j\jlst by eing in existence is on
the order of 1 in 4. The iss~,e pr,~'m"arilY see s to e, is t~e question
of 2,4-D. 2,4-D is, as beenleval ate~ by re~Ulat y agenc~es around
the world. All of t world,iand't i~ still in u e, it is still not
been found to repres t a SigU.ifiC n,t fu,ealt,h azar 'as an environmental
chemical. It is a c mical that d es fuave so e po ential for hazard
for applicators who e very carel ss, :becaus the e are perhaps 20 cases
in the medical liter ure where in ivi~uals hi!ve e'ther tried to commit
suicide or have othe ise been exp sed!very h avil to the concentrated
material and have ha some nerVOUS~inj'l!1rY tha som imes, can,last for
quite an extended pe 'od of time, nyw~ere f~~m a ek up to a couple
of years. It is not carcin(i)gen,. Itt is a iery ry weak mutatant.
I have here a report hat I have, ithlDr. Ne ton Oregon State, have
prepared for the Stat of Wasnington D~partme,t of atural Resources,
which deals with the, the title of Ithelvolumelis Bi logical and Physical
Effects of Forest Ve tation Manag men. It ~eals ~t anum er 0
er ~c~ es an a nUffi r 0 ot'er m~nagement Sjhemes and has a detailed
review of all of the orestrYlherb'cid~s that are esently used in
Washington including n exten~ive ect10n on ,4-D. I mentioned muta-
genicis, there has be n proba~ly 2 0 i4dividu 1 tes s of, the mutagenicity
of 2,4-D. And, it's greed that i is:a very weak utagen and does not
represent a carcenoge ic hazard. t has a dOle res onse such that, or
probably the most se itive kind 0 injury wh ch is probably in the lab-
oratory, birth defect. 2,4-D doe ca4se bir h def cts at a very high
dose in a few species and t.hel"null, eff~"ct d OS! tha, t is, conventionally
used is 20 to 30 mill grams per ki ogram. Th dos e, and this is im-
portant when Dr. Witt begins to di cuss with ou t kinds of exposures
that can occur, the d se at wAich ffe4t perh4ps ar begin to appear
is up on the order of 60 or 7eD or 5 m:illligrams per kilogram. Now, that
is of considerable i, rortanceibeca se ~,hiS k i~d of njury is a threshold
related phenonmenon. There i~ a d se ~elow a whic it does not occur
and that's agreed upo by everyone who lis in he ar aof Seratogenesis
science. .
!
Id you 1xpla n s1ratoge1eSiS?
s is JUS. t si ply ia term [WhiCh
there ~re t 0 k~nds of birth
can be dause by :the di1ect i
birth 4,ef,ecbst~,at wou d ris
in oneior b~th ~arents I
e that we ar pr~sentedlwith,
me to u~e us as a resou~ce.
r many m,any,' ea,r~,' and e wou
ta. I would have to ma e one
e that :ilt re res~nts anlenvir
ery che~ical app]icator Ishoul
bas~,'c, dli.,sciPlinei.that tjey do
a very, 'very car~less a plica
although the wo~ld is ull 0
to trouble with ~t. I 0 not
hazardJ . I
I I
Dr. Do~t, the
g the tilme. I jqst wan
hat youincl ded iand pr
I have I.,alot ff q"uestio
r us to luse a d ~ead.
! :
! '
ou that~ if IOu iish. ~
nk you, iI do Iwish. Sec ndly,
which relate to accumla ions,
ith other natura~ and a~tific
human tiissues, ~n animql tis
. "Ill. 10 f.ltl .0 81.6
r
Unidentified man:
I think, given the ti
you that you are welc
with these problems f
to provide you with d
2,4-D, I do not belie
I believe that like e
it, maintain the same
It's a chemical which
get into trouble with
who have not gotten i
sents an environmenta
means the causation
defects, in essence,
pact of a chemical
through a genetic
I would suggest to
e have been working
d be more than happy
conclusion about
nmental hazard.
be respectful of
for all chemicals.
or could possibly
careless applicators
believe that it repre-
Commissioner Pitts:
this, we're interupti
and also the chapter
of this last night an
brought this report f
stion in regard to
ow, I read your preface
for us and the index
I'm glad that you
Dr. Dost:
Commission Pitts: Th
questions that I have
effects, combination
in the environment, i
there is alot of
the accumulative
lly made chemicals
ues. Would that
I
I
I
,
I
I
tinued: be i cluded in Jnswer to this?
. : i
, i I
esponse~ to t at iin the~e and
here, 011,' I pe'rha~s can ~denti
tory I can a swe~ in mo~e det
bit of 4 jam, be1ause I Icould
I
I
I
h~ environmental yhemist
I I
i' I i
you, 11m Ji~ Witlt. I'; a pr at Oregom
xtension spe ialist in hemis ry and environm~ntal
e my CV! (Cur icu]um Vit e) wi hthe Commissio,ers
k indicated, he and I kind of violated a rule~
rds into it, Ithati we set!: up f r ourselves some
ot to a~pear before boaids or commissions unl~ss
on directly irom the co missi ners. I thoughdwe
not entirel comfortab e wit what's perceiv~d
s relationship. :We vie our ole as one of a~sist-
missioners, ~n r~achingl dec'sion about this ,issue
aerial spra~ing ,of her~icide by clarifying I,
g what ~nfor ation we can. I'll try to address
perceived h ve Qeen ransed i relation to th~
d to vo~atility qf 2,4- , dri t of 2,4-D and impact
s thougq the e w~re sev ral pints... I
i! i
et me j4st colmmerit that you a e addressing th~
adversaJ1il situa~ion. hese viewers of tqis
nse you~re of If the hook. :
ou. Ah~ it appeqrs tha ve very short t~me
eave a little of 'our 30 s for Dr. ThompSon (Sp)
om Wash~ngto St~te Uni who will have ~ome
up an ~ircraft 00 mini ize d ift. And some qf
uite importa t iri certa'nly m naging a spray ~rogram
in you~re reachtng you deci ion. ' i
s often~ I do 't iknow iJ it e ists here or no~, but
on betw~en volattlity arld dri t. And, pesticides
the taJtget slite 'by eitlier me hanism. And I ~se
, drift lof s~raYlpartic~es. fter release bYlthe
or or W1i,ateve~ i~ spray~ng, a , before th~impact
ve drifted off ttie targ~t sit and impact som~where
volat, ilil,ty trans:6.er or ,*olati ity, or vaporiz4tion
menon afiter t e spray d~oplet have come to r~st
ly on the target,1 then ~o the reissue from, 4h,
aves of Ithe ~Ilan~s, soi s, th litter, so on as a
hen mov~ offsite ithere. I Well some do. Some Ido more
s related - ore I han o~hers, this is related Ito
pressute of ~he I hemic~l. A d the higher th~ vapor
t is go~ng tol~mo~ offs~te as a vapor. Every~hing
Some things ~ave such ~ smal vapor pressure Ithat
but everthingl do~. SO.'I anyt ing, ,any chemic1il,
as a vapor pr,essUi e. THere's molecules of it in
can vapq.,rize; In,',d I hereb~ ,move off the site th1t
eemed to me t at i n som~ of t e discussion that's
ceded uS toni ht,1 that ~t was implied that al~ of
e about I,the sl me I n thaq rega d. All are higqly
off th~ site qui! kly, aind in such amounts as tlhey
m by peq.,ple b~e, atl, ing t is ai , then that is darry-
I'd liMe to iv~ a lit le bi of information Ithat
. We have inl he~ icide appli ation with 2,4-P,
tile estiers. Thel e' s rally nly one left in Icommerce
, ' ,
Minut s, Week of Nove ber 19, 1984
Page 2:
Commissioner
Dr. Dost: There are
want to look through
if that's not satisfa
I realize you're in a
if I had the time.
if you wish, if you
y them for you, and
il at little later time.
go into
Commissioner Pitts: I know that, t
Dr. Dost: Dr. Jim Wi t is followi
and toxicologist
Dr. J.M. Witt: Than
State University, an
toxicology. I'll lea
if they wish. As Fra
we kind of slid backw
years ago. Which is
we receive an invitat
indirectly had, and a
as an adversay or sid
ing community, the Co
of whether to prohibi
what we can. Providi
questions that we hav
issue that, with rega
on water. It seemed
Commissioner Pitts:
Board which is not an
process, so in that s
Dr. Witt: Yes, thank
limits and I want to
from, Gary Thomason f
information on sendin'
those things can be
and could be importan
I think first, there
there is often confus
can be transferred of
the word drift to mea
aircraft>> or the trac
the ground, that they
else. I use the term
to describe the pheno
on the ground,hopefu
that site, from the 1
vapor, as a gas, and
than anything. This
what we call the vapo
pressure, the more of
has a vapor pressure.
you can't measure it,
the wax on the floor
the air. So anything
it's applied on. It
furnished that has pr
the esters of 2,4-D a
volatile and will mov
may directly cause ha
ing their vapors. So
can clarify that poin
what we call high vol
10 fA, ~
o 3817
Minutes,
Page 23:
19, 1984:
Dr. J.M. Witt contin and that's tllie butyl est That's not u ed
~n orestry. t ~s in wheat.! ; but to my owledge it's never
been used in forestr. It is still sed in wheat ltures. Now, I'm
going to gi've you so 3 numbers. The ~por pr~ssur of that chemicat
is about lto the 10 or 10-4. What tl:i1at means is, is that, in milli-
meters of mercury wo ld be .001 or .00Ql millimete s of mercury vap~r
pressure. For compa ison water has a ~apor pressu e of about 23 or: 26
millimeters of mercu y at room tempreature. Now, e esters that are
used in forestry, an there's three p !ncipleeste s, PTBD, IOE, an~
BEE -- those all sta d for different cl:i1emicals tha you tack on to the
2,4-D to makg an est r out of it. An Ithose all h e a vapor press1f1re
of about 10- , which means that it,has!about a: hun ed fold less vapor
press~re than does t very volatile e~ter that, t buytl ester. 1hey
are different and th difference is significan,t. w the, salts" which
we usually are deali g with the Amine (St? ?) salts, again have a mu~h
lower vapor pressure. They're abo'\lt 10-Y. O.K., u had 3 or 4, 6!and
9, we're ge'tting mor and more zeros in front of t t one that tells us
how tall, how many millimeters, or, fr ~tionsof mill'meters of mercury we've
got. The Amine salts have a volatili y, as dO the thers, but it g~ts
so low that, ah, you can't hardly eve iidentify it. I
!
Now, the vapor press re is not the I only thing ;that ffects volatility.
Ah, volatility, vapo pressure is the rtumber that I gave you. Volatility
is how fast is this hemical leaving lte surface t t it's sprayed <jm,
and that can be effected by a number f factors on he site. It's the
surface area. If yo 've got this thi ~ sprayed, t chemical spraY$d
out across the plants and so on, on t ~ surface so hat it's in what we
call a film a monomolecular layer, a flm one mole ledeep. It's .oing
to evaporate faster than if it's epcu bered with 0 er substances, the
weigh agents the sol ents, the sticke ~,the drift tardants, or oi~s
that are often in these formulations. iAs it deposi s on the plant ~,eaf
and it becomes ah, sort of mixed in w'tth the waxes, that retards th~
evaporation. If it's a warm day it w'~l evaporate r vaporize fast,r
than if it's a cool ay. Type of sur eice can 'effe it. To the extent
that surface coverage is important, d GP size at t time of deposition
will effect that. So, both your rate ger acre, an your degree of ~overage
then are, with drop sizes, can effect '!that. So th how much 2,4-Difinally
then is volatilized or transmitted'by vapor loss? ow much would aiperson
expect to be exposed to? For the low volatile, est s, which are thr only
ones we're concerned with here, the m cj.surements t t have been made on
the site of deposition, following spr ys, see how ch is present at a gas,
generally show amounts that eitherlar iundeteC'table or up to commoniy in
the tenth of microgra s per cubic ~et ~, up to abo one microgram per
cubic meter. Now, if you translat~ t at into ~ose hat a person wo*ld get
assuming that they were breathing thi level for 2 hours, now theylmay
or may not, if the wi d is towards, say your use is a certain
distance from the treated site, YOl.l'relltving there, ur're staying there
all day, then if the wind is towards qur house all day, for 24 houts, it
didn't blow in a slig tly different d'lj-ection, the you would be br$athing
it for 24 hours. cj.t all, assu 'ng a reasonablyismall
target site such ~n you'd pro bly be out of t~e path
of that, and you wouldn't be getting r).y for some riods, you'd be i getting
then the following a iods. Now, t e dose, at One
microgram per cubic eter turns about tio be four te ths of a microgram per
kilogram. We always put it in units f boyd weight of the human, t~is
assumes a 110 pound person. Four ten It microgram p r kilogram per 2.4 hour
day that you're conti uously expos~d, ~ow you want 0 relate that b~ck
to the numbers that rank gave you of no effect le ls which were 2d) to
30 for the most sensitive effect that ~e have. 20 0 30 millogramsl
which is a thousand fold more. The u ilt is a 'thous ndfold more tha! the
four tenth micrograms. I i
I
,
tission that a y of these are ~ll
on, much more rapidly than what's
qan appr'oach hat question com.cept-
~ Chemicals ouldnot volatilize
Ueir half-lif. In other wor~s,
I
To the extent that t ere has been dis
volatilizing extremely rapidly and so
indicated by these measurements. One
ually and I think, get a useful answe
any faster than what is called is py
VOL
1 0 r~.tt
o 3818
,
I
Minutes, Week of Not 19, 1984
Page 24: 1
Witt, cont1 ued: the time that it takes r half of the chemical
egra eor ~sapp ar rom a spray site, for 2,4 it's about 7 to 14
days. We use say al 0 day as a half-life. Then w would be losingtibY
one mechanism or an~ her, 5% per day~ Qn the a:vera , for that firs
ten days. Half of 1 would be gone in,10 days. N , it wouldn't a 1 be
lost by volatility, ffime of it would ~e, fo~ward egradation and bther
mechanisms that wou be involved. But, if we ass e that all of if
would that kind of , ts the limit in that it could ot be more than I that,
could there, because there is still half of it left. You go througn those
calculations, you m~ e some assumption~, thatbein that the personlis
breathing it for th~ entire day, that the cloud of apor is staying!about
10 feet high. I do*lt think that's vety realistic, but I wanted toimax-
imize the effect, am in that cloud mix to some ext nt, in other wotds,
I used the concept ~f air changes in alroom. In a oom such as this,
or at least such asl our living room at home witho t forced ventil.tion
generally youlll hate four to six air changes per ur. So I made the
a~sumptic:n that you I a~e about seven mil xing changes with equal volu$es of
a~r, as ~t moved do w~nd to whereyouiare. I thi that a very cOIilserva-
tive estimate in tel!." s of how much dilution you wo d get in the air. And
it could not be mor$ than 8 micrograms lper kilgram er day. So, I'm not
saying thats a worst case; it's simplyla theoretica , could not be ~ore
than that. I' i
I !
Now drift, alot of Jiscussion -- I'm t4lking ~bout rift of spray p~rt-
icles now. Alot ofldiscussion about tlie amount tha is measured onitarget
after a spray plane I goes by , varies betiween 25' and 5% of the theor,tical
maximum. Ah, there 'are alot of measur~ments that f II in than range.
What you get deposile depends on ah, lteally what y u're doing. Wh~t
you're spraying out t ere. What kind qf a spray sy tem you have, h<i>w
high you're sprayin, from. How much deposit yoju get, how much drift I that
you're going to get Jean really be simp~ified into s ying that it depends
on two are three thfngs. The size of tihe droplet y u release. The I height
you release it from~ And the local weather conditi n. How hare the wind
is blowing, whetherlyou have an invers~on, a number of other thingst I've
seen figures lower tj:h n 25%, I've seen Ifigures as 1 w as 17% deposit. This
is in forestry applic tionof insecticides where th y're flying abo~t
200 feet and they a:tte putting out' 100 micron drople s because this Would
be like in t, he Spruqe Budworm control H,.,rogram.", Bec use they're lOO*" ing
for very fine dropl~ts to penetrate the! canopy. On the other hand you
can put out, id oplets and when xou're sprayi g a herbicide n~ar
what we call a senitj:i e site. A sensitjive site can be a stream, COUl, d be
somebody's home, co~l be a garden it dan be w~atev r you consider to be
a sensitive site. ~o probably should 'be using wha I call a very 40arse
spray. That's 900 ~i rons. Now, the ~pplicatprs i the forest ind~stry
will use probably aqo t 500 microns most of the tim. Most of the 40mpanies
and applicators, ce~t inly the forest ~ervice, are sing these very!coarse
drops, the 900 micrqn drops, at the ed&es of their reatment sites ~ntil
they get far enoughii , in effect to c~eate a wider buffer zone. ~at you
get in terms of amottn of drift, when you're using 00 microns, and,this
is what you can do, la d that would be using what we call the D8 nozzels
with no whirl blade~ couple of other ,kinds of noz els, that can b~ used,
has been shown that ly u're getting 92 tlo 93% down 0 the target wit~ that
type of spray. proqa ly getting 56% in the first c uple hundred fe4t, that's
where most of the dii t goes. Probabl~ 0 to 50 fee you're getting ,most
of it, about" 200 fe t out a little ,bit ',more, on out past you can ge~ drift
for a long distance ut your deposit flrom that dri t will be very ~ow.
How much drift do yqu have? At 200 feet, with the onditions of ap~li-
cation that's talkirig about, 900 microns, about 10 f et high, you'll I have
0.01 percent,. of the~d se deposited, or !,two, miCr',Ogra s per 'square fO,O,t.
How much is in the i? It's about .oj parts per m llion or 130 miQro-
grams per cubic met r as particles. When you're in aling that you don't
inhale all of it, t ,e way you would a ~apor. It's elected out according
to drop size, a,nd o,fJc urse, your expos4re period ca not be, for 24 ijours,
it'll be for the le~tg h of time that i~ takes that loud of particl~s to
pass which is proba~l not more than ld to 20 ininut s. At 100 feet~ you'll
have quite alot mor han that, for ex~mple, the fi ure for deposit lwill
be about 20 microgr m per square foot'l Now, in th forest, this i~ for
agricultural measur~m nts. In forestr~ your drift an be for longe~ dis-
tances because of t1e slope of the land. We j~st t ink of that in ~his
,
I
,,'VOL
10 flit:
o 381.9
I I
,
Minu.tes, Week of Notember 19, 1984
Pag~ 25: I I
I I
conti ued: way, if you release you droplet at 10 f~ot
t r'~te for 100 f et, but your sl e was 10 feet per
say tt fell 9 feet n d~ifting 100 f et, now instead I of
off t e ground beca se ~he ground fe 1 away, so to sieak,
from under it, it'sl ow 11 feet hi h, ~o depending n the slope of ;he
terrain, you most certainly can ge lo~ger drift fo longer distanc s,
in steep te"rrain. 4, if you calc late what the de osit would be f,r the
figures I used and 4 en you can mu tiplly them by a actor of about 10 or
20 in order to allo\f for steepness of ~errain, if u are in that ktnd
of condition, with regard to say depqsit on water, you would have I say
two micrograms per $q are foot at 00 :ijeet which ca culates out, if I, you
had one foot deep of ater in your cre~k. Would ca culate out to be
0.06 parts per bill~o. Now, if y u mthtiplied tha by 20 you',d hate
1.2 parts per billi!. Fish have n L~ 50 generall to the 2,4-D i
different esters of a out 1 part p r m~llion. See ou haven't reacfued
that. What level 0 drift into th wa~er then woul be compatible ,ith
preserving the fishllife? I think the I figure 4 par s per billion was
offered on the basi$ of, and that as calculated 0 the basis of chronic
effects, ah, usually the way that as qalculated, t e way one reach,s a
chronic effect figUre, the way tha on~ was done wa for lifetime e*posures.
If your contaminating a flowing st eamlyou're going to have a fairly
brief exposure at the highest conc ntr~tion. In ot er words, you tJ:?ink
of that about a secqn , a stream flowi~g three mile an hour and yoy
sprayed or drifted into say a ~ mile off the stream, you've, in effe~t,
treated a plug of w~ter, it will t ke ~bout 10 min es to pass any given
point. That won't clear the strea of !all the 2,4-. You'll find ~,4-D
in that stream the r),e t day but at maybe 1/100th of the amount thatlwas
at that peak concen4r tion. It's he Reak concentr tion that we'relin-
terested in, and I wa,nt to emphasiz tha,t fishes or ther things in ~hat
stream are 0,' nly very riefly expos~d tq it. The LD 50's, you don't.lwant
to be anywhere near It e LD 50's by Ithe iway, who wan s to kill half lhe
fish. You've got tJ e a good bitundar that. I d n't think that ou
have to be all the ta down to the lowllevel as sug ested by this cjronic
effect and y, ou shou~d be kept, it S,hou~d be kept in mind that LD SO,s are
calculated on the basis of a 4 day expqsure. When'n fact you're g~ing
to have a much brie~e exposure th n'tttat in a flow ng stream. YouTll
have a longer exposure if we're talking about a pon of water or la~e that
receives drift. ThJ rinking wate st~ndard is 100 parts per billi~n.
That's for people nJt for fish. Fish and perhaps 0 her kinds of li~e in the
stream ShOUl, d have ~ lower number tha,n Ithe hundred arts per, billio" but
probably not much low r. How much is ~ctually gett ng into the watEfr?
The Forest Service in Oregon monitrs tihe water reg larly with every spray
project and the dat4 ver about a five Iyear period, was assembled a I couple
of years ago and it I C me out like this:i 84% of the sprays had, wer~
undetectable, which 1m ant one part per :billion or 1 SSe 14Io, now t~is cov-
ered about 300 and Jo e odd sprays, al~ right, ah, 4% were one to {ive
parts per billion, j f them feel ~etW4en 5 and 10 nd 3 we e more than ten.
I think I probably ~sed more time than II intended a d I'd ltke to gt,ve,
the rest of it to Dt. Gary Thomaso , wHo can talk a bit abo t what ~an be
done to reduce drif~ in terms of setti~g up an airc aft and how to ~eep
the drops big. Yes I sir, ~: I
Commissioner Pitts:! 0 you have t e p~per on those 300 spr y testi4gs
in Oregon and can wJ ave access~t that? I
I J ' I
Dr. Witt: Yes, I thi k I, if I a e a Icopy with me I'll tr to givt it
to you before we le&v '
Dr. Gary Thomason: I have anr time~
Commissioners: Sure I I
I I
, I
Dr. Thomason: I'm aa y Thomasonl, I'm clhe pesticide educati n speci*list
with Washington Starle universitYL, cope~,ative Extens'on. I'; here Primarily
because I work withlt e aerial arplica~ors througho t the s ate. I
Commissioner Pitts: i ould you sbek t9, us because e have 0 have this
on tape. I r I I
Dr. Gary Thomason: I'm sorry, II'll st4rt again I'll sp ak to yJu.
As I said I, work W"iJh the aertal~a p1.i9a~ors of thi state. I havelfor
the past four years j The primarr b~e.lt~ve of our rogram s to injrease
lwijt 10 f~~ 0 3820 I
I I
'ilt!'1?,
Minutes
Page 26
st
be
y s
air
g e
noz
pre
nex
I c
res
ed
ma
hav
t,
ica
nt
Week of November 19, 1984
I
i
, I
Thomason, continued: spr y dJposition of II pesticide applications
m as covere pretty much he ~deaof volat'lity and dippedlwell
idea of particle drift, I will, of course, confine my remarks to
drift. I was given four ues~ions toans r for this part cu-
ing" and the first one was: Wl}at causes s ay drift problerps?
a very simple answer. An th~t answer is, simply, by putttng
oplets, small spray drople s, ~nto air cur nts that will cjrry
the target site, this is hatispray drift roblems are all about.
size of the spray particl s t~at are put 0 t.How small is a
ray particle that will dri t? . IBy the expe s definitions otthis
g under 125 microns. And 0 put this into elative size ramge,
terms of the thickness of a d~me. A dime 's approximately I 1,000
thick, so if spray doplets are I about tent of the thickne*s of
ndsmaller, are those that will move ff f m the targetsile most
And let's face it, there isn'lt a hy rauli spra.y nozzel blflilt
sn't produce some droplets in, ~hat si e cat gory or smaller i The
is can we reduce the num er qf drop ets t at are being prrduced
zle to the minimum of that 125 !micron size r smaller? Yesf we
t understand, that it can ot be elim'nate , they can only lpe
to a minimum. The factors that effec the roplets that ar$ produced
ay nozzle are many. I wil di~cuss j st si of them very btiefly.
of the hole or the orafice in ~ nozzl is 0 e of the primary
ers. The smaller the hole inci nozzl , the greater the num~er of
oplets that are going to b prQduced. Thus, the large oraftces
best. Pressure; if the sp ay ~ystem 's sub'ected to high pfessures,
ose conditions more small ropllets wi 1 be roduced. Conseiuently,
sure, something below 40 p undJ per s uare 'nch, is best. ~ozzle
ere are lots of different ozz~ls pro uced or Ag aircraft, land
going to go into the vario s d~signs f the e, only to say that
a wide variety of nozzels,eaqh one esig d to do a specific
ch one designed to produce a sgecific size droplet. I shofld
hou"ldn' t, I should put thi in I a propr per pec tive, becaus. every
uts out not a droplet size ran&e, but a spe trum of droplet sizes,
alL the way from 10 to 15 icrqns in ize, ery teeny tiny lhings
almost invisible, all the waylup to rople s that are somelhing
s of five dimes thickness, on qccasio. So, there are many I
t nozzel types and there a e mcj.ny of hem t at are designed not to
with herbicides and specif'cal~y the he no herbicide whic* is what
Another factor is the w',nd ~hear e fect cross the face of the
When an ai.rcraft is flyin thlj"ough t e air at a particularlspeed,
el orientation in relation to ~hat ai blas coming across ~he
ill have an effect upon th drqplet s ectr that is produc~d.
e nozzels that are aimed, 0 to speak, bac with the wind s~ear,
e ,that's the kind, of orei ntation, I shoul say, that WillJI pro-
least number, or the fewest number 0 smal droplets., The
he speed that the aircraft is ~raveli g, th more small dro lets
g to be produced. Consequ ntlX those aircr ft that can mov$ most
ill do the best job in ter s 01 putti g out the fewest smalt
re are many many other fac orsJ ey ar somewhat lesset in
fect upon the production 0 the small dropl ts. In review'lthe
mall droplets that will be produced b an , aircraft spray system
characterized by have rela ive~y larg oraf'ces, low pressu e, low
stem pressure, they willp oduqe a so id st eam, straight bJck in
stream without any breakup, wi~hout a y pot s or plugs or s4me-
se put into the nozzle to rea~ up th se dt plets before th~y leave
le. It just puts out a st ~ig~t stre m. r"r speed below 6~ mph
erable. Okay, that's so m ch ~or the smal. droplets. I
: i' I
question I got was what t chndlogy i ava, able to reduce ~rift?
n say that there is an awf 1 lqt of t chno gy out there. there
archers at alot of institu ionS in th Unit d States who have
n the whole idea of spray rif~ and p oble related theretQ for
y years. There are commer ial iindust ies,i pray nozzel pro~ucers,
worked on this for equall maI}y year Nt dless, to say, a*d in
here is an. awful lot of inorm1tion 0 t tht e. If the aeriCill
or will take that informat'on tiohear and se it to reducelthe
f spray drift that they're pr04ucing. But~ as I said befor$,
there is not technology th t h~s prod ced ~ I should say etimina-
ally the small droplets th t w~ll dri t aw~ . I
,
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VOl
liP
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I
utE
,0
llit
Minutes
Page 27
Week of November 19, 1984
I
ercent of the m~terial
you some quotations
that ah, I believe
you said up to ~2%
I
I
,
I
droplet I'm going to q~ote
Adkinson ates, and Norm Atkinson
dhat if ve a straight stream
f~ce, or hole in that no~zle,
art get a from 95 to 98%lof the
I I
I
b~ut for st ctices now or a~ricul-
cqices? 1
~cross practices. that's
t~ appli I
1 ,
Ri I I
Dr. Tho ason: Now, I on't want td mJximize fect of that lojfeet
versus wenty-five feet because wid qhese v ge droplets YOUjre
not goi g to have an ap reciable ef~ c~ in, 0 an possiblyswa~h
displac ment and mmring it from one,' yqu know rt, distance away from
where i was first ,glac d. And it'sl J4st a m f a few feet. ~etween
25 and 0 footaltitlude Now, that'! ~omethi most people car).'t
realize nor will th!y e en accept th t lidea, to 98% of the ~aterial
can be ontained wi, hin the targetal eai. But talking about a Ivery
specifi set of con iti ns. In facti ~f aeri icators in gene.Jal
wanted 0 maximize tlhei deposition' h~y woul ase a very soph~sticated
set of ooms, calle4 mi rofoil boomsl ~n whic could get up to 199%
of the aterial do~ in the target I~ e~. Now booms cost som4thirtg
in the eighborhood~of 12,000 to $~ ,QOO for rage helicopter~
which m kes it proh4bit ve for most I e~ial ap rs. I
I , : 1
And fin lly there w4s s me questio~ b9ut dri t rdants and thei~
effects, the, ir rami.~ica ions, how mu: h lincrea e we get by using I
drift r tardants? ctu lly drift re, a~dants ing much more t~an
simply nlarge the' ver ge size drOpi e~ comin f a nozzle. Th1y in-
crease he viscosit)l' of the material tlhicken ng ag nts they are oftrntimes
called, and they simple produce largi r Idrople s. i w, to be as bri~f as
possibl , last nighd be ore I wentt, ~ed, th tho ht occurred to ~e
that th question t~at ou people t\7il 1 Ihave i who s doing this apRli-
cation 'n your area~ A d I found Oll' ~rom Ke Hili an from Pope and Talbot
'that a pecific Org~'niZ tiondown i~: O~egon, n Sa~ m, was doing mo~t of
the app ication wor hee with the '2:,4-jD and he cq ifer release prqgrams.
I was n t familiar ith this organiz tilon, al houg~ I have worked w~th
some ot ~r Oregon c~nce ns" aerial I,a,', p~,icatio conq rns, I have not :had
any con act with thils p rticular con eLln. Th refo1j" , I had not experience
in know' ng what or How heir aircraf'. ~as set upa~ what . k~nd of .J1b they
would d and how we~e t ey dealing ~'t~ this dea q herb~c~de dr~fq. ,So,
I calle that organ~zat n last nig~.,t,:, anid I go aho:Jl of a guy named ILarry
Lymm an I asked hiq so every specil i<1 quest ons. I Just how is thi~ air-
craft s t up, Larry il I ant to know . eclause I m go~ g to Chimacum timorrow
and I'm going to ta~k t some Countyi Cqmmissi,ners I nd I want to be ,able
to give them the stnigh scoop on th,' s?1 And, his 1f ponse to my que~tions
indicat d that, if ~ we e to set up' bjelicop er, tJ: do the least a~ount
of dama e drift wis~, I would follo:w' t~e exac , 'or I erY,nearlY the ~,xact
prescri tions that Ifarr Lymon had s:e, up with that I elicopter. He Has
large 0 ifices, low Ipre sure, point'e' slltraigh baclt into the wind stiream,
he's fl ing under 6q mp , not only t, atl but WIllen h~ gets into the b~ffer
zones n xt to strea1s, hey throw in' a drift tetarq nt that make~t~e
droplet even larger ' tha they would! o~mally te, ayt I should po~nt lout
that th droplet si es hat are comi g lout of thos~ nozzles are at ~east
as larg as the coa se, roplets, tha"t', Jilm outl ned. I The 900 microns I size
and abo e. I would est'mate that th, ~ay tha air4 aft is set up ,t~at
the ave age droplet,jSiz is somewhe'r, iln exce s of 1 200 microns. Tne
only qu stions I wo1ld ave about th sel appli, atiorl is somewhat in II'the
'I 'I,
1 VOL ,.. (0 rAt~ 0 3 2 I
I I '
Dr. Gar
can e
that I
Jim and
or 93%
Thomason, continued: Next
ontaine on t e target area~
ill have to take some exce~t
I don't want to misquote yo~
. t . ,
epos~ . !
u~stion,
:t;fow, Ji
on to.
But I b
I
Dr.
Deposit, yea with 900
With the large, coar~
gurus of aerial application,!
ally when he said, in a papel
ointed str~t back, a D8 dr
fly less than 60 m.p.h. you'
in the target area. .
Commiss' oner Pitts: Are we talking!
tura p act~ces ot er than forest pr
,
We're talking strict~
of approximately 10 f~
,
of No!e~er 19, 1984
I
I
Dr. Th ason, conti~ued: area of wH f Ithey're app~,
are ce a~n con ~tH~ns 'under which t se small drop
duced n move fair~y long.distances lAnd they, tn
are su ended in the air, hang there l1ance there ~
of hig relative hu~idity, very low ~nds, if any,
you ha a warm airlcap lying above rql air on th,
These e called in'~ersion condition r I And I know I
we hav some amount II of trouble under, fHose conditio
out th the people that the people .tllEastern Was9.
applyi herbicides I are not taking, a, ywhere near t~
refore ation serviqes are. And, th S,I I would ass
invers n condition~ the even, under tri-version con~
a mini~ 1 effect be~ause of the amou t lof the mater
lack of the amount ~f material that' I~eaving the 4:
ClUSi,oi I'd say that the kinds of a t~al applicati
being i ployed herejare the best in h~s state and I
to YOU~ hat the con erns that the ae i~l applicator
that I ave observe, personally, are ~~obably morel
rest 0 the United ~tates. That inc udes the ultim
aerial app~ication that is t~ng made ont~
of dri off of tho e plots r~ght do .1.. (under 0
I
I I I
with t forestry p~ople except for Ilqelicopter t~
Weyerh ser on the ~est side here an came over to;
to be ! volved in oqe of our flying rqgrams over ~
report hat that pa~ticular aircraft +~s able to a~
the ne hborhood ofJ92% deposition 0 I~he material~
craft d it was un~er some rather m tginal wind cQ
not ha even been ~esting that day ~dause of the I
strate that under ~ore normal condi tqns they wouJi.
someth g higher inlthe way of depos't~on. '
Commis 'oner PittS:J! Mr. Chairman, ~~ it's all r~
w 0 ~s e organize, for the other s~~, there hav~
here a I'd like t~ deviate from th'$ land for our I
some q stions, bef~re I forget them I~f these last
that's II right wi~h you Tom. I I I
Chir n Brown? 'I ' I
(Unide ified Man): I think that's good way to g .
I II i
Commis~'oner Pitts: I While you're he ~,i Mr. ThompsA
. b k' ,I U 'I
a ra~ ave to go ac ~n my no ~sl. m, one <f
was ra ed last wee~ in this, in the $~chanics of t::
done w h fixed win& aircraft as opp $ed to helicop
differ tiate, does Inot explain the. tqblems with ~
with a elicopter vJrsus th,e prop wa. ~ lin a fixed t','
Dr. Th ason: To a certain extent i r sl true, but J
appro a es mph t e results are ve y Imuch alike ~
you'll et. When tHey're havering, f ,course, the1j"
of do wash of the lair., And a grea I~,eal of turbu
outwas you might c~ll it. But, onc Idhey have go~
like t t, that rot1r blade or that rq,tor system a
wind w ld on a air raft. II I
I I I
Co mmis . oner Pit, ts:~. And is there a, cIt~iation,' up, I
mp J as pre era e., Is there a v }~ation andd~
40 mph 's best or i there a mile pe I~our speed t~
to app, this at oris that a too di ~~cult thing, I
conditt ns can be e1tremelY variable t1 it. I
Dr. Th ason: The ~dea is that a he :l.dopter op any
to ope ' te most eff~ciently at a par :l.dular speed ~
speed , at h, as be, enJad opted by the h, iil,coPter apPl~:IL.,
anywhe from 40 on up to 70 mph. ' b~ it's a lin
The fa er you go t e more small dro, t~ts your' re
cause the air sh ar on the drople s.1 'I'
I I I
, I I
'oner Pitts: I I understand wh t Iyou're sayi~
here might Ie differences beto/sen prop was~
estion. I : I
I : ~ kb I14E [) ~
I
ed, because thete
ets that are pr!-
little droplet
most, under con itions
nds at all andihen
surface of the round.
n Eastern Washi gton
s, but I shouldlpoint
ngton that are I
precautions thAt
I
me that under tnese
I
tions there would be
ai, or I ShOuld~'SaY
rget site. In on-
n procedures th tare
can also point lout
have in this sttate
han they are inlthe
te, California. I So
the forest land~ out
imizing the amo~nt
side - tape)..J..
I
I
t came out of I
astern Washington
ere. I'm happylto
ieve something ~n
coming out ofttle air-
ditions. We shduld
ind,and this d~mon-
probably have lad
. I
ht w~th Tom Jay~
been three speaRers
ake, I'd like t~ ask
three gentlemen, If
I
, Thomason, I'm I
the questions 1hat
is was, the res arch
er aircraft doe not
e prop wash ass ,ciated
ng. Is that t~ue,or?
helicopter I
depositionlthat
great deal I
ence associated I
en up to a speeq
t very much as q
I
I
ou said less th~n
s that mean tha~
t is best for them
nd I realize th~
,
I
,
I
aircraft is des~gned
d the applicatiqn
ation industry ~anges
r realtionship. 'I
ing to produce, ,be-
is that
Is that
I
I
less tthan
signi~icant
I
I
I
I
,
I
I
Commis
was ~n
and th
course
this?
Week of Nove ber 19, 1984
Dr. Th
resear
I've r
transi
rotor
get ou
relati
you go
the ai
to bec
reache
wing e'
I
ason: That's purely speculation on my part
into this area and all I can ~o is to quot
d on it. "And with a helicopte:rj you go into
'on, once you reach about 10 m.~.h. forward
ane begins acting like an airf~il and you 0
of that transition phase. And!I would assu
ship from there right on out a~ to the amou
he less turbulance you're goin~ to get bene
cushion effect. From the roto~s pushing ai
e much more si ilar to a fixe~ wing aircra
40 m.p.h. or i that generalaIiea, you have
ect. I
I
I
Pitts: I have another qudstion that w
s to the dynamics of co~d lair flow as
air spills down into the vialley, becau
you done any research on ~hat, and is
I
ld not, it,woul~
, I
mph and th~n yo,
I
kay, the other question was, m, in regards tJ
Eastern Washing~on you have ,q spray at 10 f~et
the Department off Agriculture's ruling after 4he
ontroversy on the east side, 's that not corr$ct?
to my understanding.1 Applicatio height is espeJiallY
no as critical as ~t is for fun icides and! insetticides.
here's a verysp~cific direct've from the Depart-
at delineatesth~ ascending a d descending spray
ings, and this,iS what I was ondering because
this area to,be~ause of our errain and the 4rop
h, so I'm wonder~ng if thath s an effect bec4use
t and higher. ' , , I
ason: Well, f the State De'pa~tment of Agr culture has iss~ed
~m~t on the h ight of applicat~on, ah, numb r one I don't t1ink
y realistic, ecause even thQu~h you have m re, a steep,er t rrain
e, for any ae ial applicatorwlio works in t e Paloose Hills
tell you that that's awfully,sbeep terrain 00, and for any~ody
him- he's got to stay at'10 feet or bel w, ah, well, helll
you and say sure. I I
oner Pitts: If you give me YO~,r, address, I'll send you thajl.
rom t e ep rtment of Agricu~ture, so it' not my figure, it's
I
: . I
ason: It's a 2,4-D order, I tliink, and it aries quite a b~t
area. I
Pitts: areas it does apply tq
I
I
I
ou're guess, wou~d
40 and 60m.p.~.
I have done nJ
the literature Ithat
what's called I
peed, where the
tain lift,:once Iyou
e that it's a l~near
t that, the fasder
th th, ,e airc"raftJlfrom
down, and it's going
t . And once yo , 've
gotten into the jfixed
I
I
I
s raised last w~ek,
he valley heats lup
e hot air rises lof
hat a factor in!
I
I
I
factor. I hav~
n the service I Iwas
ne some goodly ~mount
area can be ver~
in I think:we'v
oving. And if ou,
at happens if yqu
here the air is !rising
ea for a short dime
ea bit. And aqtually
of other proce1ses
ffects, ah, o~t~heyond
occur is when. you've
,
I
I
I
,
say that the significance
you got downtolsay below
uch differentef~ects.
Dr. Th
not 0
expose
of rea
critic
got to
you've
get he
then t
will t
is car
reduce
a cert
I
ason: Well, certainly any air bovement is
any research into it. I have,! as a pilot
to alot of meterological courses and have d
'ng on it. And air drainage in la particular
, with the mo ement of 2, 4-D. IBut, hereag
alk in terms of the amount of 4,4-D that's
ot so little t at is off the: tBjrget site, w
ing and let's say unstable air iconditions,
2,4-D that might be concentra~ed in this a
n begin to rise and begin to.b~ diluted qui
'ed well away a d photo degrada~ion and a lo
hat material to virtually nothilng, and no
'n limit in distance. The bad t,h~ng that ca
VOL. ~O fAtE .. 03
I
,
,
Week of November 19, 1984
Dr. Th
va ey
spray
to, in
in eff
there
move d
ason continued: got warm air 1jying on top
an an you ve got a cap. The lair is very
to that area those small dropl~ts are going
hat area or below that cap an,dJthey wllill no
t, but will remain concentrate~ in that are
n then move off target, usuall~ very slowly
slope as well. !
I
What is your, ~hat's
I
,
ason: I am anientomologist. MY job descri
e e ucation, it's my job to go lout and teac
te how to use pesticides with ~espect and s
I . I
I I
Ydu're throught tHe Extension
I I
with the CooperativE1 Extension S
,
Yqu
i
ason: I knew J---laughter
n t you? More Ilaughter.
I
f cold air in the
table and when you
to tend to stay low
rise and be diffused
and whatever is
and sometimes will
ckground?
tion is of course,
people throughout
,fely.
ervice?
rvice of Washirigton
guys really t~ied on Satur aYe
I
-....-.1 You really know how to hurt
I
,
Brown: Okay, ~s there ah, tha~k you. We
r two people ~Hat have made pr4sentations
stions right at this time, too.,
, ,
Dr. Dost? ! Could
could convll'erse.
Cal Aggie land we
i
I
,
Pitts: where's
you could 'so we
you. Dr. Dobba from
league footba~l, so
Commis
t ~n
feels
the ac
half l'
on Gly
tion,
are th
in liv
man: Neit~er do we.-laugh~er.
,
,
, ,
oner Pitts: I Ihave some questilons about, a
ese quest~ons qould be addre$sed to both of
'ke answering, ~he most qualifield. I had s
mulation, the accumulative effelcts over tim
e here of 2,4-U and I think we lean also, yo
phophate, Roundup..:. Glycosate. I As far as i
ltiple effects lof accumulation,1 are these t
water soluble" d they accumullate in tissu
s and things like that? I
, ,
,
, ,
st?): As it haRpe snore of the "I nore of the
orestry use ard p rticularly.fat soluble.
e half, time for e creting 2, 4-q in 'l:te human
ours. And they! a e neither of !them very wa
not very fat sdlu le, they are Isomewhat mor
not even highl~ w ter soluble. I Soluble eno
ery readily th~ou h the kidney.! They're ex
Glycosate not i2, -D accumulatel. They do n
they don't sta~ i fat, we're npt talking a
here. So, the Ire idence time o!fthe materi
In terms of intier ction with ,ot~er chemical
ation, that is,1 c using an effeFt that adds
er chemical mig~t have, the conpentrations
environmentalsita dpoint, are r~ally very v
f interactionshav been studiedl, not so muc
've been studied ery extensive~y for pharm
e kinds of drugs hat peoplear~ given in t
a major proble~, ecause there fire just zil
aresay that there'probably a qjuarter of th
er now or at so~e time have beeh treated wi
I . I
And the idea olf iving the phairmaceutical
eir physiologyi. This is 'the w~ole idea, a
to do it. Andl s obviously if I you can mak
expect to produc some kind 'ofl an effect a
!
I
I ,
11 0 Ut~
,
(Dr. D
common
time,
15, 16
they'r
they'r
creted
neithe
not'ah,
simila
short.
consid
some 0
from a
kinds
but th
words
this i
would
who ei
eously.
change t
materi 1
that y
~VOl
o
ght as well take
d ask their, ask
me up? Or yon and Dr.
some questions for
even get into your
d I don't know, I
you, ah, and whoever
me questions about
, you talked about
can also comment
's half life accumula_
ings fat soluble,
s, are they retained
erbicides that in
heir excretion half
s around oh 13 to
er soluble nor are,
water soluble, but
gh that they're ex-
reted unchanged and
t store. They're
out DDT or something
1 is really quite
, as a physiological
to an effect that
hat are brought in,
ry low. And these
for pesticides,
ceuticals. In other
e treatment of disease,
ions of people, I
p~ople in this room
h two drugs simultan~
o a patient is to
d it takes alot of
a change in a drug
d you make in half
825
II
II
II
II
t?) continued: a ain more effedtive, or tw
e ect~ve, some ad things are Irore than l'
it's been very, he principle ~ s been ver
y specific chemi also And wha~ it comes d
et changes, of c,urse it requLtJ'rs substant5
magiC, al changes. You get Chan!'f~s on the 0
even ten fold, hich if you'r I talking ab
astrophic. If y u want to ass ~e that you
in, you know we were talking ~lbbut these
're getting four tenths of am~crogram per
o effect level~ here's a 50~Oq~ fold diff
look at it very ritically, so Ifhat if you
a hundred fold, you haven't gq,'re anywhere
lly the situatio there. I
fied man (Dr. Wi t?): We Shou~ld clarify,
ween synergistic e ects and a ~itive effe,
've got addi ti ve effects at al I times. Sy
been alot of tes ing on it, bu~ obviously
ted against ever other pestic1~e or every
it could intera t wi th. But, I ithere have
in categories of pesticides wh~l~e they sus
son to suspect t at there migh~11 be a syner
nd it very often
II
Commiss oner Pitts: The don't . I~.
t?): Synergi~ is where
one and get ,I five or som
d one and get'4ling two whi
stion has to ~Ie considere
are by the tl-,ature of th
ackpack applidftor for 2,
ntensity becu41se, it is ab,
II precisely Ji,bw much an
ry excretions,l~ And, so i
inds of substCl.hces. But
perhaps a teith of a mil
a person let' say who is
1 will have e posures _th,a
hat. However~ let's say
d of medicati1 , and with
2,4-D, but su4~an indivi
n a hurry, do~'t wash up,
ople who at l41ast theoret
II
f d Jlth' .
you oun an~1 ~ng ~n na
trimental syn~lrgistic eff
e there could'lbe a combin
at could resU~!llt in either
been .... I
II
t?): You don lit get inter tion of two chemicals
number of rea.,sons. The ncentrations, to
low. There l'ave been st ies of Glycosate,
y have tried '0 drive the eaction looking at
let's say sp Illing glyco te on a site where
d, so you hav~ a nitrate d you have glycosate J
east, can be ~eacted to f m a nitroso di~ivitiv9
. And the st~dies that h e been done, looking I
lem, have fou~d that it's xtremely difficult I
nd the conclu*lions of the investigators are I
spill situatic?ln, it's det ctable but not sig- I
1 standpoint. II The realp blem is that under I
chemicals d1,'s~r, ibuted, le 's say two pesticides, 'I
distribution ~re so scarc in the environment
to get concen~rations tha will react and they're
ances anyway. I That's not, they don't, they're I
iable to reac I' with one a other. I
~.
10 fAC, 0 826
.,
Minutes
Page 31
(Dr.
a as
And so,
many ma
you do
are not
possibl
it's ca
ten fol
where w
to the
want to
or even
essenti
Unident
ere e
that yo
there's
been te
chemica
in cert
have re
don't f
Unident
were y
Rather
of effe
applica
exposed
investi
intact,
in by m
model f
will ha
per day
a good,
than te
vidual
any thin
make a
those a
risk.
Commiss
ment t
with an
or a ma
or a by
Unident
~n t e
start w
for exa
it from
fertili
which t
which m
specifi
to make
that in
nifican
normal
in thei
that it
more or
not hig
Week of Novembe
fied man (Dr. Do
u get, a one a
han adding one a
t. Where the qu
or. Applicators
You know a, a
ated with great
and so you can t
asuring the urin
r alot of other
e somewhere up t
of exposure. Or
careful individu
fold less than
hat's on some ki
with respect to
istake, they're
e the kinds of p
Hav
a d
applicator? Whe
-made chemical t
product which ha
fied man (Dr. Do
nv~ronment, or
th are relativel
ple, in which th
the standpoint 0
er has been load
eoretically, at
y be carcinogeni
ally at that pro
the reaction go
that even, in a
from a biologic
ircumstances two
normal route of
s very difficult
less stable subs
ly react;i..ve and
19, 1984
e as effective" or
ely going to happen.
heavily studied and
to is the, when
1 doses and they
er of two fold,
t a pharmaceutical,
ake a change of say
posures to 2,4-D
ilogram compared
ence. And if you
'ncrease it ten fold
et. And, that's
ere's a big difference
S. We can assume
rgistic effects,
ery pesticide hasn't
ther interacting
en alot of tests
ct there might, they
'sm, and they really
u are multiplying
hing like that.
is just an addition
however, is' for an
r work more heavily
D and 2,4-D has been
rbed and excreted
dividual has taken
's more or less a
applicator generally
gram per kilogram
ixing for a helicopte~
are probably more I
at you have an indi- I
t, I don't know of I
al should they perhapsl
omething like that,
ally would be at
re or in the environ-
t as you've stated
ion of a natural
stronger concentration
VOL
'I
II
II
II
II
I
,I
'I
II
talked about tllalf life of ,4-D as being between
rage of 10 '11e talked abf t....
Y .... -! .. '
II
Okay. We ta~ked about va
photo degrad Ition and ot
ht up in one If the heari
pseudomonan ~I don't kno~
with some d g~~dation, it~
tij~I."re's all ti ds of micro-organisms.
ins of fung~.
I. I :
is one of t~e organism~ hat degrades DT,
and, exc sJI' me, 2, 4-DI, I nd ah did my early
II ' I
II. I
. .. .laught r'lI" I
4fe many or~a isms, it's not restri
I! I
~~~t ~Jt:~::::: f! ~:::C::e:::~::~it'S
h~h we speaktQ how long it takes
slfte. I
d Ipf climati onditions that
d'~11 if you ge I t real cold, it slows
o ~woisture, t II slow down.
h~~ls in bac. f San Diego there's
all~, time. AT, d" I didn't feel those
!I, . I
I .. !
d~t days lik~1 hat.
"11.. laughtet ~
r~,I, s<;il. In!, 6
ad~t~on, to ~a
9f the micrt~
I '
t If as, and t:L
t I, as brough, ·
i~.a flushin ,
n 'I. dry up b tl:
e~I, is flowin .
Y1~u familar w
yolr are.. Is t:
I'
n I~hown by L g
er~'" ,it's cov r
01 those st I J:!1.
egl . ade them. .
II:
II
ey're in t e 1~hade.
c~mical rem
ai~Jcomes do
,41rD going d
oullwould get
'I
II'
I'
Minutes
pagle 32
Commiss
a
erpbe
19, 1984
as
Pitts:
e, ~nc
gs that was
as that the
about, has
and resear
Yea
udin
btou
some
oido
h?
, after you
nvironment
ar from th
ass ki
oist not too co
o~ a d dry with
I
(? ): Now,' n Ith Chapparell
ies that s o~ 3 to 40 day
evant to th coa t range.
( ?) : Well
ry conditio
ditions tha
conditions
kind of dr
also have
r 2,4--D deg
favor growt
o .ry
be tele
a strea
occassi
of the
accumul
things th
things th
, let's say
eam beds d
inly the wa
rayed. Ar
t i on . in. . . .
that's be
treambed, w
s then lan
sually to
Dr.
Dr.
get'you
about
whi~h
( ? ): Bu t ,
next rain.
, you canm
uld be very
n have the
that next
a peak of
r to what
ious things that
r things. One of
, in the hearing
hich they were
that been your ex-
.. You know where you
her words it's the
e it more rapid, are
rganisms in the soil.
might have come out
p 'is that 2,4-D can
ction, let's say in
there are certain
n this area when most
th that, and an
at a problem?
n Norris and if you
d with stones and
s, now, there are
unlight can, temper-
''10 10 rAtE
ing there until you
and if you're quick
with that first water
you directly drifted
Commiss'oner Pitts: qsually in
et s s y a worst c sa senario,
now (la ghter), let's 'say that,
season 'n this area. iWehave a win
the bud break and w'tHin certain li
drainag areas that we might be spr
cases w have condi idnswhich has,
area. nd at the b se of that drai
we have some very e pensive shellfi
researc and what's the documentati
these t ings are mu h :lower on the
is ther a differen ethere?
I
II
II
II
erl: into the s ream while it
same kind ofa lug" so to sp
ria longer time beq~use, I'm
mente And, it' p~pked up an
o~ed first to t at Ibff-site.
I :i
Ani what about . n tihe water w e you're talking about
rom, let's say he I[,orest can p intol a stream or
down into let's sat on estuary? And,! if. we have 7
ve problems her w~lh shellfi~h, do we have problems
~~s like that t atlfight be a feted 1>Y either 2,4-D
Dr. Dos In the c ndentrations th t ~bu will fi let'~ say, the mon-
~toring s generall done in adjace t ~~reams. Y go lopk for the chemical
where i 's most lik ly to be. You er1:4hinly are goin~ to go look for
it down own. And, the concentrati ns,i~. I think J referjred to the studies
that ha e been done by the US. Fore t ~.rvice and's remarkable when
you find that ten pa ts per billion n d' ncentrati in orte of those adja-
cent st eams. And hat's peak conc ntr!~tion. An ten p~rts per billion
is, wel the studie that are gener ll~1 done on f , they hold them
in a co stant conce ttation for 48 0 ~~ hours. most! sensitive stages
are gen rally just fter hatching a d tieyond the a~so. And in
those s udies there are some where heYiJ've gotten wn on! the order of
two ten h of a part per million. I ot1per words, 0 hunpred parts per
billion and seeing orne mortality. We~t, that me , I tpink,that you
may fin a few and 'ndividuals that mi~~t be effe d as] you get down,
let's s y to a hund ed parts per bi liqp, but not ry mahy. And, I
guess b the time y uget down into an lestuary, y ve go~ dilution that's
so grea , I questio whether you're hgao~n;:gentOisf~t'nhad unless there's been
a major runoff. On thing that can 8 ou make an application
in any ind of a wa er shed, the ma erii 1 goes on 0 the surfaces, the
2,4-D b' nds rather ightly to the s il I nd to the 1 aves and so forth.
It stic s pretty ti he, once it's t ere it's pret,y well stuck. But,
if you et a rain s orm, in a coupl O.~,[.,W"eekS' an ., 0 make a measurement
in the tream, more than likely you II I ind it be a se yoh get overland
flow of solid mater'at that is carr in~the 2,4-D ' nd it~s goihg to
mov, e. There isn't gO,ing to be muc buj ,you can i d it.! But, the con-
centrat'ons are r'ea ly quite.... 'I I
. .. (Dr. Wi t) I
Un~dent f~ed man: et's take that artl:of your q;e
W en ~ t rains are you moving it 0 f tll:. e trea tme t.,
I have 0 ask you a qt.j.estion. When it lains do y u
over su face flow a d :erosion from hesl sites? tn
your mo ing the soi particles with yo;'ltrainfall '
move 2, -D if you'r doing it withi wh1~t we call
I"
do you ant, to take, take four half tim#s, you'll h
chemica left after four half times andilso that's c
and ah, if you had rainstrom that wasll.moving so 1
over th surface, t en,', ya~ you'dm ve I~t.
:1
II,
sitl,~ation tha "
's I eems to b
well' do have a: r
ow I here that I w
itel', , conditio~, s.
yin, a variety
thel[e 's a rec~n
agel."., sys tem yo~
h i ,the strecpn
n?IIs the cork
oodlchain and t
ta, Ithe U. S. i
ng 4t, t shellfi h,
nce, I to some 0
ono~ic issue, b
'I
Ii
II
~ 0 rAG~
II
Week
ember 19, 1984
s flo~ing at the time.
, it rouldprobably
king ,about,' I refer
oved py the water
tion,1 I sure that
site into the stream.
have ~hat we call
, if you, do, ,it 's
hen y~syou can
ou know how much
ve 5%~ of the initial
rtain~y detectable
or litter particles
'm ge~ting at, and
he pop word, okay
lativ~ly short spray
have I to get before
We have certain
f arehs and in some
logging 'in that
ddress fish fry,
, andlhas there been
ntrat~on, because
ey'reinot as evolved,
,
i
e~e's alot of.d
t an aw ul ot of time look
ter of fact, there is refer
shellfish a enot only ane
to be an in icator organism
,
h andiWildlife Service
~ .
spec~fically. And,
hose papers in there,
t shellfish are con-
,
erent:purposes.
\'0
o
828
Minutes Week
Page 34
ember 19, 1984.
i I
Dr. Dos
at Anac
got, th
find.
that th
alot of
crustas
you can
look an
to much
to the
of the
,
I
ed:Whether yo~
Y'seem to be Pit"
oysters underin
en alot of work
$ensitive indii
pecies don't mp'
re very sensiti
tli a ball bat.,
s the greatest ~
s and go for th~
Y1re probably !E
One final
about the gly
or the surfac:t
~ I
with these ado
ng to create ai
,When we add t
Dr. Dos
un erst
initial
rather,
widely
can eff
gill me
the fis
but in
there'd
than th
i
Monsanto appare
I ,talked to th~
for glYIhosate. i
arit that's notl
t,lget that sam6
're reducing s-G,
ureduce surfac
, I
a problem nq ah, so any s
he, well we'd have to calc~
be somewhat less surfactant
re is of th qcting ingred!
: i
. ,
, I: They were p.
el1e beingging ~
. I
One point I w~
d :DuPont they fl
, i
man: It's almost a c
. ,
gett~n q surfactant,:
,
:
,
erl, what they'
doesn't add a s
,
~ would like
This is yonly copy.
e~l, we can seb.
things, this, i
made for you a~
, ,
I
Commiss'onerPitts: Why don't I pu
can sen us a copy, t~at way I wonl
, 1
, ,
it:Jher way you W
1
Chairma
was goi
lated t
and is
present
2 andt
the ''Ion
Applied
Brown: Th other side ofl
,
g togivet eir presentati~
the use of Aerially appli~
ied up in a fqreign country
tion on que t~on nu~ber 1 t
eir speaker wVll beiGil Zero
Term and S o~t Terk Effect
Pesticides". .
, :
are talking a t pollution down
ud I~own there Texaco that they've
at~ their out l. Well, that's
don~ just bec e of the concern
atQ~ and the te els, of course there's
e mpch sense. ou can look at one
e 4rd you loo t another one and
And" ah, so y u can't, you have to
ve]l- of sensit v' ty, and not worry
I~hat's the r ason why I referred
; ~pd away mo e sensitive than any
"
II
II
io~I" ,I'm sorrf' In the l, i terature
sa~~ as not big a problem with
nt'll in fact, s. What kind of a
tivt~, s in tryi, g to manipulate the
urf~,ctant or ticking agent or
es~1 t,hings to .
:1
tl~i, there's
a~put it, in
Anqlthey used
iddlly used an
ki1i!. of effec
fad. tension,
t~,sion on a m
rfal,ptant can ~e
~~d,lk,. i ~e~U~O~~fte
n t 'i I Ah , its e
wn Ipn the ord r of ten parts per
s~r impact.
t tip point ou
1 QP it the s
II
assl!cal case,
nd If:hey appar
:1
III
id I~as come u
rfalftant. . . . .
ill
I:
I~ne paper
p!fomise to te d me a copy?
,I
i tit I back to y!U
'd I ike to ta e
I
1'1 1 send yo
"
I'
oJf address this and then you
ha~e to feel sponsible.... laughter.
nt Ito do it, ,h t's fine.
ii I
he I~,rgument aJi,
onil the Healt
Pelfticides i
andiicouldn't e
wei ~.ll move 0
~tl~~rr~g~~ ~
I
I
I
:1,10 3829
rAG~ ' : "
e troubl~, as I
nstucting their
fair amount of a
f those that are
Though any surfactant
u're effecting their
mbrane you can cause
toxic to'fishes,
and see how much,
asis in a formulation
s to me that before
hat I'm not thinking
ith another formulation
cause they had a
ly solved their
if you want because
these back, since
opies.
their person that
onsiderations re-
n, has an illness
here for their
o question number
t their views on
nation by Aerially
'~ '.
Minutes
Page 35
G.M. Ze
c~v~ e
copy of
having
Chairma
Dr. Zem
o r~e
quality
areas.
skim th
it as a
it. Wh
a major
specifi
two of
the thi
on aeri
drift a
will be
have st
will oc
will oc
and a i
for the
case wi
in fore
of the
Which i
that b
you fre
is that
with an
often h
pilot e
in that
ular ca
be, it
as clos
that th
error t
drainag
overspr
in thes
about w
and tha
One of
in drif
There's
a littl
because
factors
it was
a chanc
in a pa
increas
and he
a helic
Sprayin
increas
"the st
in the
speed t
air bla
And as,
entrain
That's
I
II
II
ill
ame is Gil Zema sk~i. I have a
My area of specialttiy is water
written comments h~lre for you,
of you. Iii
, III
Iii
Iii
I'
water quality pe41ialist with he, Northwest Office
rth, and I'd li e ~~ address so e of the water
ns of aerial ap li~ation of he icides in forest
ably the best t in~for me to will be to briefly
repared remarks. 111uhink it's 00 lengthy to read
ight be better 0 ~Iry and summa ize it going through
this paper was to I~,h, first ta k about drift as
rl water polluti n ~iUd then to to talk about the.
the problems r la~!ed to 2, 4-D nd Glypmsate, as
bicides that ar ury~er consider tiQn here. One of
i~k you have to ke~~ in mind wi h regard to drift
nis that it wi 1 d!ccur no matt r what steps to reduce
some of the pre ioJ~speakers ve mentioned, there
t~., rials generat d cj.'~", d and drift will occur. You'll
ation. There a e qifferent deg ee of contamination
re,nt people wil m4,e, different estimates but it
$imple fact. eg1~dles of ho much drift occurs
lIve quoted som f~~ures from E A studies or studies
dicate, for exa pl~l~ that ah ta king about the worst
ays that would e ~~ed for herb'cides applications
~ould get some hi~g on the ord r of one percent
drifting as far as lone kilomete from the spray ~rea.
ificant drift. Th~~e, of cours , are ways to re~uce
kind of thing t at I~an happen. And one of the things
ith aerial appl'ca~~on of herbi ides in forest a~eas
se often occurs. &~en in spray programs which a~e run
chi eve ,a model ro~ltam to reduc contamination, ~hey
erspray of the tr~~ms, for exa ple, due tOP~t' tedly
ot:"a quote in h ,re !,W,. hich I thin is worth cons~' d ring
gram that was r n Iby BLM in Or gon, in that par ic-
were doing res arq~ to see wha the drift would
the report tha cj.1:strong effo t was made to ad ere
le to stream bu fenl zones and 0 her requirements &nd
which occurred er~!! "not intent onal". However pilot
tqe spraying of ha]~ of the eig t intensively st died
of these four c sesl1the error r sulted in direct
. i That's the k'nd!pf thing tha you can see, ah,
perations and I th~~k that you eally have to ta k
t,case is going to I~e from a re ulatory standpoi t
be your worstc se .II!
''Ii
he previous speakers mentio ed I~ome of the
and there' qome discussio a~put helicopt
a paper by arren, which I app~n to have w
bit about hat and it almo t ijilits you in a
no matter h wyou vary your SP~~.d you're go
with a heli opter that will reswlt in incre
r. Thomas ( homason) indica edithat below 3
of increas' ng drift due to grqund effect c
er on Agric ltural Aviation in~~cates tha~
above 25 m p~h. the latera a~~ streams ~n
as an illus ration here whi h iI~lustrates t
pter case were you're seei g ~prtices prod
particles nd pushing them up~ard in this
s about 25 .p.h., ah, and e ~~ys in this
ength of th vortices which pr~~uces that e
ange of 40 0,50 m.p.h.ll W 'rsllgetting clo
at Mr. Thom s I indicated would ti~sult in inc
t and that' breaking up th p~~ticles as t
Mr. Warrren or as ,Warren s ys I~ere,"spray
d in these it streams cane d~rried aloft
quote.
Week of No ember 19, 1984
ansky: My
g~neering.
my prepared
ne for each
Brown:' I
I'm
s 0 the E
considerati
I think pro
ough these
whole. It
t I did wit
mechanism f
s of some 0
he major he
gs that I t
1 applicati
e taken, as
driftable m
eam contami
ur and diff
ur -- it's
the paper,
EPA which i
h coarse sp
t areas, yo
pplieddose
pretty sig
t, that's the
uently see
the worst c
attempt to
ve direct 0
ror. I've
area. A pr
e where the
as stated i
ly as possi
violations
ok place in
s . In three
y of stream
kind of co
at your wor
's going to
octoral degree in
ality. I have a
I apologize for not
hare well.
onditions result'ng
r effects on dri t.
th me, which tal s
Catch 22 situati n
ng to be creatin
sed drift. I gu ss
m.p.h. you have
nsiderations. W rren
t speeds, for sp~eds
uced by heliCOPt~'rs
e case. This is
ced by the rotor .
ase. That effec
articular paper,
fect, starts to becrease
e to the 60 m.pl.h.
eased drift due to
I
ey come out the ~' ozzle.
articles that be ome
and be widely di persed!'
I
I
~"~ '
10 U~
o 3830
Minutes e~ber 19, 1984 I
Page 36 Ii
Dr. Zem nsky contiri ed: There's also JI~en mentione
ra~nag ue to tem erature changes ca~I~;ing ailr to
and the e kinds of it drifts that wou~~ occu~, unf
in an 0 timum fashi n. with the normallXil plann~d spr
morning and the cha ce of impacting st~leams b~cause
to this towards th rpajor streams, frq~ the -qribut
the dir ction of dr ft moving the herb~lcide tQwards
streams Effecting them the same way tt~at th~ whol
to funn 1 water do from ah, watershe4lf' ;
Once a erbicide is applied then there IliS a hyidrolo ic cycle, and the
impact hat that he!biCide will have 041 the aquatic environment is a
functio of the her icide properties arl~ envi~onmen al parameters. These
are a c mplex mix 0 factors that are q.lifficul,t to redict. Anytime
that yo want to co sider what the imp~~ts arel goin to be you have to
conside this wide Iange of factors, ott~erwise, you'll have trouble try-
ing to ay preciselr what's going to h~ppen. :For e ample, Glyphosate
and 2,4 D are I?rim,a~,.. i~,y degrad,ed in thElI",e.nVirol,nment by microbial br. eakdown.
By micr -organ~sms, bacteria, for examB~e. That ra e of degradation
is goin to be a fu ction of environmerytal pa~amete s such as temperature,
availab lity of oxy eri. If you have a Ilsituatiion wh re your test results
to dete mine what t e., breakdown, rat, e W~I!.' werel, cond cted at h, igh temper-
atures, that would ive you false indigrrtions of lo half lifes, if your
environ ental paramters where the app1j~cation: is g ing tO,be, included
lower t mperatures here your half lif~I' might ibe ex ended in compared
to your test data. I~ talking about t~~ pers~stenc of these pesticides
I've us d, ah, the ategories from. a paBer by iGorin , et al, and Goring
is a Do Chemical C mpariy employee, tOI~, efine Iwheth r or not, or define
how the persistence is determined and I. is ah,i in th. s case, persistence
of less than a ~ mo th, was defined as ~',non-p~esist nt pesticide. Slightly
persist nt pesticid s' were defined as, I,: alf lilves 0 a half month to
one and a half mont s, moderately pers~~tent was a ange of one and a
half mo ths to six onths and persiste~F were ralf- ives of more than
six mon hs. That's the scale I' m usin~l: when II talk about persistence
here. n questions of:' mobility there ~~ a grelater 'udgement factor,
there h sn' t been, t ls much more di;.ff~~ult tol try nd quantify that
on a scale. One sc ler that has been s-y,ggested is a scale by Helling
and Tur er which us s 'Soil Thin-layer Q1;romatograph to come up with
a quant tative numb riand then theydi'-t~ded thiese n mbers into four classes.
To be f've classes. With the firstcld~s beiqg the immobile class, the
least mo ility, the if. th class being" tH~, highel,st mo ility. Unfortunately
those a e not ironc ad cases, even tho~,hit l~oks icer because it's
quantif' able. The uQlbers that are! genr. rated Ito tr and enter that
cl as s, if' cation syst m ,.,.are, dependent "'. fd '" examp,I"le, 0 different SOil, types.
So you' have to te t,the given soil t~'e if. you ntended to be making
your ap lication in that area, to be a~' e to t~y an determine what the
mobilit will be in that area. 2,4-D ~~ghtb~ clas ified in Class 5
the hig est mobilitin one particularl~oil, i~ mig t be Class 4 slightly
less mo ility in an ther particularkiI1~ of sO!il, f r example.
The num er of diffe eJ, t formUlations" o~[I', 2, 4-D ",The properties of that
particu ar formulat on, in each case wg' ld be idiffeent to some degree
than th properties o~ another formula~~on, sol you ave to be formulation
specifi if you wan ~o try and make prldictiops, a to how it's going
to reac to a certa n' degree. However ,11' in mos!t cas s you would expect
that wh tever formu at;ion of 2, 4-D is li~ed, if I it's an ester formulation
for exa ple or an a ine formulation~ w~' tever Iformu ation is used will
likely' nd up havin as an intermediat~ 2,4-D lacid orm, basic 2,4-D,
as part of the brea down. So you will I t some! poin , have the basic
2,4-D a id no matte ~hat formulation ~ u're ~sing. But, getting to
that po'nt might in olve some addit:ton~. half-life or exaJ;Ilple, that
you're ot counting if you're just bas~pg yourj pred ctions on the half-
life of 2,4-D acid. ~n the case ofesYi,rs, yo~ gen rally will have
degrada ion in the olim of hydrolisis cf ,the elster orm to the acid form
and the e is a cert in, or a certain de inite lamoun of time where that's
! II
'I
II
II
ah, a cold air
rift down valleys
rtunately coincide
y times in the early
it would come down
ries. That'll be
those, toward the
stream system works
,VOL
110 rAGt! '0 831
Minutes, Week of NOr ember 19, 19184
Page 37: : , I
Dr. Zemansky contin ed: going to r~qu~~e to get fr m that ester form
to aci orm. Beca se 2,4-D deg~adati r is primari y due to microbial
breakdown, some of he factors that,ar I,important a e extremes of moist-
ure. Very dry soil c~,nditions, it'~ b~~,nmentioned before, usually re-
sult in longer pers stence, but alsq v~~y wet condi ions could result
in longer persisten e~ The same:" ag4, in i~~:"ith tempera ure~ if you have
very high temperatu e, well first of al you've got a range. If you
start down around z ro, around free*in&l~ and increa e your temperature,
you'd expect that y u,would have! deyre~sed persiste ce as the temperature
is increased. But, after 35 degree~ c~ptigrade, wh ch would be a fairly
high temperature ar und here, then, you Iwould have a decrease in the
degradation rate an again would! have lqpger persist nce.
The pH is the same hi,ng. A st;reanJ:' s i~f pH can re uce, can result in
an increase persist nd" e and lack" of I., oX1k" en would be expe, cted ,to inh,ibit
micro-organisms and rJsult in incre~se ~persistence~ In the National
Research Council of Canada's review,of~' ,4-D they r ported that in the
study of persistenc i,n saskatch,e", wa, rt, sg;ls, at a te pera,tu, re of 26 degrees
centigrade, which w uld be higher thanJt would usu llywpuld be here,
half-lives range fr mi14 to 41 days~ 'Mat was for ,4-D and presumably
if you reduc,e the t mperature yop wqul41 result in 1 nger half-lives.
The maximum half-li e in that case wen~I' as 40 days or so.
ill!
Commissioner Pitts: So, if you ;reduce Ithat temprea ure ...
: i I ~ !
Dr. Zemansky: If th t 'test has occurredl, in the same soil conditions but
at a lower temperat re, you likely ~ou~~ have had i creased persistence.
~ow, I tho~ght ~hadli you said at
a~ed half-l~fe. :As Ivou go throu
you get to a certa~h degree and
. I
I
,
I
I
"
II
"
Commissioner Pitts: ..26. This' is de~Fees fahrenh it or
~~~p~;:~~~~y ~ . . ~6 d g>:ees centig;ad; i11! this case. That's a fairly warm
Commissioner Pitts: Yes, it is Very wai~m,that's m question ....
I I In
I ' 'I
Dr. Zemansky: So a the kind of, envirqnmental temp
say in the Spring, p~ing you would lex8#ct to have
longer persistence han that. B~t, ith~l1 again you
consideration the s iI conditio,ns art,d Ol'f, her. conditi
to give you a feel or the kind of persistence that
Norris has been cit d iherealrea~y '!:fonilght. Norris
which ,has been repo tad for 2,4-p half-!~ives where
of 2,4-D were all, lL had half-~ivds ~*eater th~n
of 2,4-D. In his w rk her reported iah'lla half~l~fe
the pure acid form f2,4-D. This ~st,~king his da
actual half-lives, e igave the ,degradatlton profile.
which would be your half-life a.t I abqut i~wO week for
But, his data showe that there were ldhger half-li
formulations tested. ,.And Norr:iJs,at~ri~4ted this re
to constituents of formulatio'Q., One situdy in Nova
titled a dykeland s it, which' consistedJlmainly of m
had fractions of sa d ;and clay" and:2 .6lfoorganicma
Reported climate co d~tions welie: a rrleanil: annual perc
meters which is 39 'nches of rain" an al[.erage daily
degree~ centigrade htch would Ib~ aqo~tl' 42 degrees
muc,h d~fferent from hts general, are, af, ~tl :would Seem
When isooctyl ester of 2,4-D was I aPlilie., , only smal
in the ester form, o~ever, 2,4-V adid ~esidues had
about 14 and 28 day , Iwith small: corice~#rations per
265 days after trea mente In the case~f amine for
half-life was somew ere betweert t4 afnd 1fl.2 days, wit
persisting at least 385 days aft~r tire~timent, longe
words. '
Commissioner Pitts:
you do have an incr
life drops down til
increase again.
Dr. Zemansky:
It g t .1 lower . . .
10
Uf,~
a very cold temperatures
h the scale the half-
then it starts to
ratures you have here
ower temperatures
ave to take into
ns. This is trying
there is from 2,4-D.
has done work, um,
various formulation
he pure acid form
around two week for
a, he didn't give the
And it reads 50%
the pure acid form.
es than the other
arded rate of degradation
Scotia, in what was
inly of silt but also
terwith a pH of 5.8.
pitation of 99 centi-
temperature of 5.3
arhenheit. Not too
ike for conditions.
amounts persisted
half-lifes between
isting to at least
ulation tested, the
small concentrations
than a year in other
n:' 3832
!
,
Minutes, Week of No ember 19, 1984
Page 38:
Commissioner Pitts:
What's yoUr defini!tion of a s
! I I
aye to go back to tlhe paper on
ut something on the!. order of 1
I
,
to parts per milli!on.
I
a~e to go ~ack to ~he original
I
I
1 concentration?
Dr. Zemansky: I'd
they were talking ab
Commissioner Pitts:
is, I think that
arts per million.
Dr. Zemansky: I'd
figure out of it.
per to get that
Commissioner Pitts: That's okay.
, ,
Dr; Zemansky: As a whole, that informaition which I
and in spoken by or 1 ihere would indiciate that 2,
"slightly" persiste t .categorybased on! half-life.
concentrations pers' st for much longer Iperiods of t
like to mention tha half-life concept ~s a little
you're talking abou a pesticide and w~q.t it's effe
of the longer, lowe " :cqncentrations th!at would per
periods of time. A d,! it's difficult tlo determine
centrations effects anegoing to be. Most of our i
higher dose effects, acute effects. Buit, those lo
concentrations pose ar~al potential fo~ impact, e
to d~f~newhat that i~pact is. , And, if I you have th
cond~t~ons you coul ~aue considerably ~lengthy pe
in excess of a year,by -qhese ca.ses,in t~e soil.
!:. : !
2,4-D mobility is h'ghly dependent on fprm, for exa
in the case of 2 ,4- es~ers are relativlely immobile
ever, after they hy rolize to the acid ~orm, the ac
a negatively charge ion which tends tol.be very mob
example. The liter tUrE~ is very clear! in indicati
very ~obile in soil sy~tems fqr a pest~cide. Alth
of 2,4-D is possibl ,particularly undelr dry soil c
soil contains large f~aotions of clays pr organic m
of low pH, around t e lo~der of 4.0. Ho~ever, under
sorbtion would prob bly :be a short dur~tion, since
a small amount of m isiture would quickl~ move the c
soil, that's a quot :Drom Webe:tl. lization of 2
it among the most m bile of pesticides~nd as I ind
and Turner idex pla es ilt variably in cilass 4 or Cl
most mobile Class d pending on the soil~tested.
i i
In surface waters, ield and laborator~ research in
in surface waters i similar to the situation in so
and it depends cons'd~r~ble ontemperatpre, oxygen
pH is particularly . mporjtant iti surfacel.waters in t
of 2,4~D esters, wi h higher pH's resulting in more
It's also temperatu edependent, unfortiunately it's
and quantify , 'End of side 2!,tape 1 ---
I
d 'here" wearen' t a~le to predi
enow. But at 28 dFgrees centi
yqrdlosis half-lifelis 63.9 ho
et a: slight1ly acidiic pH which i
tars!, naturial surfalce waters, y
the half-liJfe of hy~rolosis by
30 qours, qr roughl~a month.
I I , i
! i I
Initial laboratory e$t~ngwitH 2,4-D i~dicated tha
for very long perio s !o~ time 'Under cer!tain conditi
of the laboratory t sts ithey found virt~ally no deg
days, for example, t !dilfferent pHs andl at 20 degre
ature. And in othe l,a~oratory scale tie,sts they fo
in aerobic conditio s,. ~ith half-lifes pn the order
so. But, with oxyg n .d~ficits, like yolU might have
or at the, in the b t~o~ waters,of a lakle:>r a pond
profile lodged in a, and lower iconcentr~t~ons of 0
the half-life was n arily three !weeks arrlllower conce
for approximately 8 days. Field tests ~ave produce
. , I
I
1jo "~ r03
!
...most waters arou
that are in existan
7, neutral pH, the
pH to 6, so you've
range for surface w
the persistence, or
talking then about
ited in this paper
is in Goring's
ut, that smaller
e. I also would
't misleading when
might be because
'st for much longer
at the lower con-
ormation deals with
r persistent low
if we're not able
right environmental
istence of 2,4-D
le, information
'n the soil. How-
from of 2,4~D forms
e, ih water for
that 2,4-D is
ghweak absorbtion
ditions, when the
ter, or under conditions
uch conditions ab-
he application of
micals into the
-D mobility places
ated, the Helling
s 5, 5 being the
'cates 2,4-D persistence
sand groundwaters,
ncentration, pH.
msof the hydrolosis
apid hydrolosis.
ifficult to try
based on the models
ade and a pH of
If you drop that
a, within the normal
would increase
factor of 10. You're
~VOl
it could presist
s. And in some
dation after 120
centigrade temper-
d more rapid degradation
f about a week or
'n groundwaters,
ere you've got a
en at the bottom,
rations persisted
variable results
3
rl
Minutes, Week of No ember 19, ~984
Page 39:
Dr. Zemansky contin
one ~n t e out ea
warmer conditions.
indicated generally
some values found 1
2,4-D in surface wa
it does dissolve an
The main thing woul
have, what is calle
the input of pollut
crease in height as
cal and the ability
would result in tha
estuaries or lakes
With regard to aqua
esters. And the mo
formuation of 2,4D
concentration, whic
of 210 micrograms p
I'd like to preface
information on glyp
at this time. That
on glyphosate" was
which Monsanto clai
from being released
legal battle took p
Monsanto and the EP
that they expect to
months, so after th
table will be in th
available on glypho
it can take someti
it would beprematu
gylphosate until y
of glyphosate in s
different conditio
literature by auth
low half-lifes,on
in even that data
days in one paper.
by Monsanto author
two months for gly
moderately persist
longer half-lifes
connected with Mon
that they were wor
and here being in
reported by Monsan
and nine months in
months as this one
it in the longest
half-life. You wo
But taken as a who
found to have less
to be either moder
classification. A
might have low oxy
be conditions favo
in the literature
and therefore, has
they would place i
classification sys
have also indicate
picloram which is
in surface water i
or two data points
unsubstantiated Mo
! :
e~: also,iand most of the f'e
t~rn United Stateslstates, w e
P~aces likeFlorid~, Georg~a,
half-lifesi on the ~rder o~ t 0
w~r and some value$found ih, i h
ers would be depen4ent pr~ma
form an i9n~ but ~here woul
be currents, in a I stream ith
a spreadi~g bell ~urve, aoi
on, from the spraYlsite. iSo,
you go dOWJ;lstream, i but the, p rsi
of the chemical toimainta~n it$
~hemcial going lo~g distanc s.
hat are in, the systi=em. i
iC taxicity of 2,41n, the ,most
t'recent researchtith th~, dit
sshown th$ 10westLCM vatue,
would be the high~st toxtcity,
r liter, with salmonids. :In t'
what I saylhere bylthe fadt th'
, ate publically available :in t
i$ because, up unti~ recentjly,
information genera~ed on Mbnsa
eO. to be trade secljet, andiwas
t9 the public. Th~ last ~ou d
ace in June with tt}e U. S. 18upre
now, will.be rele~sing that da
r~lease data ongl*phosat~wit .
t,data is released~ which !if t
~ext three months~ will ~e a 1
ate. Whicb was prEiviously:'u a
e'for peer review ~f the ~cie t'
e~ I feel, to say ~hat youk 0
'Ve had a chance tq look ~t t a
lltend to varygre~tly in !~iffe
.' Some of the wor~ which :has b
: , ,:'
slworking for Monsqnto, hajs i d
h~ order of three dnd 27 ~ays.!
owing, for.example~half-Life 0
Monsanto literatur~and wdrk of
has indicated theYltlai~ ~f a a
osate. That wouldiput ~t iin th
t on the Goring Inq~x, whtth I
v~ been fO$nd by rEtsearchers in
nto. In one case R1innish :resea
ng in acidic soils Iwith pHs of
area of l<pwer temReraturels t a
authors. And, halj:r-lifesl on t
ifferent soil types. If ~ou a
articular test fourtd in orie s ~
tegory of persiste~ce. Aria, g
d ,have mud). longer !persist!enc
the information indicate !tha
ersistence'in some leases biut
ely persistent or Rersistert
0, if you ~adglyphosate i~ g 0
n!concentr.tions a~d low ~empe~
ng much longer per~istence,. It
at glyphos4teis r1pidly ahso b
irUited mobility. Ah, seve,tal a.
in the first class~ficatior 0
m,of being'immobil~. Howeyer,
that they feel it' ~ in thel sa e
very mobile pestic~de. The p ~
very difficult to tiell in ter s
n ',the literature a~d, these: ap e
arito data .s a gen~ral rule, 'n
, ,
tests have been
you have generally
isiana. And they
four week, with
The mobility of
on, currents because
e some diffusion effects.
uld mean you would
wn the stream from
t you're peaks de-
tencE~ of the chemi-
f in solution,
So it could reach
xic forms are the
ethenyl ester
median lethal
omewhere on the order
case of glyphosate
there is very little
scientific literature
t of the information
and was information
edup in litigation
this particular
Court ruling against
,They indicate
about the next three
meet their time-
ge amount of data
lable to the public
ic community. But
ery much about
data. The persistence
nt soils under
n published in the
ated relatively
ut there are anomalies
the order of 130
his type published
rage half-life of
position of being
ntioned. But much
th$r places, not
hers indicating
found 5.1 and 5.5
the test temperatures
order of four months
a half-life of nine
that would put
n that's only the
r lower concentrations.
yphosate has been
rally has been found
oring's system of
d waters where you
ures that would
s general agreement
by soil particles
hors have indicated
lling and Turner's
me of these authors
lassification as
stence of glyphosate
f there's only one
to be a from
,cating half-life
'VOL
to H(C~
I
3834'
Minutes, Week of N
Page 40:
19, t 984,
Dr. Zemansky conti
says ~n t e~r part
title non-pouring
went from seven to
weeks that they're
With regard to aqu
relevance there is
cates that the maj
tested was in the
had a toxicity tha
The formulated her
vironment as far a
of around a thousa
of about 2,300 mic
on the order qf about tw~
u ar brochure on g~yphosate tl).a.
tural water system~, the persis
en week, which wou~d be much 10
alking about ih ottier water sys
! ' :
I. .
. ic toxicity, the major piece ~~
paper by Folmar, &anders, an<ji
factor in:gltphos~te toxicit~
. rfactant. iThey f04nd that th$ .
. was not too mu~h l~ss than the
'. cide would! be what Iyou would 1I>e
toxic effects. Th~y reported 'a
. micrograms per li~er and for t
. grams per lite'r. I
With regard to the tandards t~at appl~ in the aq~a
terms of water qua ty standards, unfo1:!tunately the
specificity in Was 'ngton water qu~lit~ standards.
that applies, and ,'ve got the Washingtlon
is "toxic radioact' e or delet~rious m~terial conce
below those which versely affect pub]ic health du
uses or which may . use acute or chro~ic tox~c c@n
hlota, or which may . dve~sely a~fect ch~racter~sti~
fairly nebulous st dara to try and ti~ into and to'
In terms of trying 0 q~antify. it they,1 the Washi*g
Standards refer to he EPA's 1976 docurrlent Qualit;:y
w~ich doesn't talk. bout glyphosate at lall.an o~
k~nd of water qual I y standard for; pro~ect~on of fr
to 2,4-D. If you beyond that, the ~revious wate
literature did tal about tryi~g to qu~ntify that:t
be, where you coul putl a number on it'l The Nati~n
the National Acade of: Engine~:i~g in '11972 r~com~e
application factor . 0 a~ute to~~c~ty d~ta, th~s w~u
whatever applicabl : acute toxicity, dat~ you have Oy
One one hundredth. . In the cas~ of~if ~ou're talkin
ester of 2,4-D the recommended at tha~ time in 197
dam they had, a st I dard of 4 micrbgramsper liter
maximum "anytime . d anyplace'r, b1Jt d~clined to IDa
with regard to oth 2,4-D formulation~ because of
were to apply the .' 1 application factdr to the cilir
have 210 microgram per; liter for ~n a9ute toxici~y
the water quality iteria would be 2 ~icrograms pe
to apply it to the ow data point ~e h~ve for gly*h
you end up with 23 icrograms per lite~. That's trh
anyplace. There ar i other Stat~ laws w~ich apply, la
laws and these are ith:regard to the negulation 6f
pesticide lable, a the Washington DeAartment of A
regarding the use , pesticides. Xn tqe case of, IW
formuation of BEE,4-D~ the lq.belsay~ specificalt
water used for irr' ati9n for qome$tic Ipurposes" ~rt
is toxic to fish. ep out of lakes, s~reams or p~n
where runoff is li . ly to occur". i The~e have beeJ.11
contam~nation requ" ements and. obviou~ly strict 40
would Just about p clude the ljlse of 2 ,14-D, . of th~t
~ a forest area. Any:vhere 1+hat' you 'Ire l~ke~y .10
~n a forest area y . r g~nng to have the,probab~l~t;:y
The kind of contam' ati6n that IYou, can Ihave occuri~
some pretty signif' ant periods of: tim~after an ap
data points in the, iterature whicp inqicate that Ie
as high in milligr . s Per liteJt of! con~amination l!>y
cation rate was in ounds per 4cre. lIi,one particu
was applied at 4 p 'ndsiper acre apd a Iweek laterit
event and contamin ionl of runqff from Ithat site wa
milligrams per lit, as before, but 4,1200 microgta
case which Norris'tesl, there ;wasi a r~instorm ev4n
after the applicat n in Oregon anti co~taminationlw
825 micrograms per iter. I believe t~e applicatto
one pound per acre. I'
I
, .
I
I
, ivoL'110:r~rc: 0 .
I
I
,
eke But, Monsanto
in non, what they
nce, half-lifes,
er than the two
nformation of
lin, which indi-
, from what they
rmulated herbicide
rfactant's toxicity.
eeing in the en-
LC50 for the surfactant
formulated product
c environment, ,in
is a lack of
he general standard
ive Code to cite
rations shall be
ng characteristic
tions to the aquatic
ter uses." That's a
not quantified.
n Water Quality
riteria for Water,
ta a out any
h waters with regard
quality criteria
a way that could
Academy of Sciences
ed using a .01
mean multiplying
factor of .01.
of the ethenoyl
based on the best
the recommended
a~y recommendations
ck of data. If you
nt data, where you
alt,1e for 2,4~D,
liter. If you were
ate at this time
maximum anytime,
well as federal
esticides. The
iculture regulation
don't know before
"do not contaminate
warnes "this product
. Do not apply
terpreted as zero
li~nce with those
ormulation of 2,4-D
e applying 2,4-D
f surface runoff.
after an application
ication, there are
tamination can be
,47D as the appli-
r watershed 2,4-D
re was a rainstorm
as high as 4.2, not
per liter. In a
roughly three weeks
on the order of
rate there was around
Commission
Ii
! i
,
I;
ed: There: . is a so ,a specific! W
says "idi s '1 eg~l for any ~e
d,apply o~,di p se lof any pes~i
upplies orllwa e wa~s. And it d
it just says i 1 dollute. S0,
ld be cons~de e td trigger t~a
. ich I've s~en f' om Ithe Depart*e
. gulation dlo,n' angJ it on any! S
't was suff~ci td be triggere
downstream' af cqmplaints. I
, I
I '
abqut any
I
I ,
. That b atiy pesticid~.
, llution hai$ a c' mp~nied the u~e
'tices in ai:tl e t qoast state~.,
ion and yo~ g . ut land measure.
ts don',t s~,~,y, h nd~ed percent~
y but you hav. v~ry high prqq
er polluti~n f:yo~go out an4.
on. Thisl ki d; of IGontaminat~Q
en documented tv th!contaminated
the figure's f b, Ot.1egon. there
ere are so~e a' e ~eports fro$ ;
in responsie t . om~laints whi4h,
sula for e~am~, f~om forest ap
fact that!, if YI u Have an appli.
impossibl~ t · ul~y control ,8
ere have tiest ;E ed. !You will hav
out covers,! it,' i t~ink, I'm goi
I
,
I
y[our 0' ly Iwitness?
,
I
explained! is ul av~ilable.
I
you ans ~ a Iquestion?
I
i
I
halve
d and on the se
er iof 2,4-D ah,
at~c weeds in 1a
,ou icomment on!t
t aibout it. ~
ow~ this use,"'j
t, e .1....
, I
'I ,
a' lJbel would a1
, ", '
a ion to the Stat
t is Iwith the D~p
as Idone is acltrt
a e ~ater Quali4Y
~i te4 quality sda
i.: .
,
i
I
I
I
hingtbn regulation
on'tol t ansport
de inl a manner that
sn't ~uantify the
hat presumable any
critefia. Some of
of Agriculture in
cificl level they
when ,here was con-
I
de, npw?
,
I
That wo ld be any
f her~icide such as
As a ~i en, if you
orchar , probably
eryth~n 's is going
ly 'th~t in every'
ok wh~rean~:aerial
in fo~est areas
ater ~u ply wells
asbe~n less research
e Depflrtment of
ocumept water pollution
icati~:ms. It's
tion,1 a aerial
some! of the
some ~e ree of con-
through my time
Minutes, W
Page 41:
, ,
,
handle, st
will pollu
level of p
pollution
the case s
interpreti
just indic
tamination
Dr. Zemans
pest~c~ e.
2,4-D. in f
have aeria
find some.
to always
case you'l
applicaito
in Califor
I mentione
in Washing
Agricultur
on the Oly
simply goi
applicatio drift .'
previous w'tnesses
tamination. That
frame.
Commission
Tom Jay:
Dr. Zemanls ky, ,
a look at! it a'
ethelhexttyl s
se is in fbr q
's like to ~av '
. e written [com
i label thati~ s
pesticide! in
el he~e and I would
nd si~e I have it
nd . i tl' s, one of
s, ponds and drainage
t if ~o wish, if
ess Ird n't under-
justl told me that
i
I
w it ~y the label,
Waterl ality Standards.
tmenti of Ecology.
ledgel, essentially,
tanda~ds, and they
ards ~n these cases,
I
I
I
a . wali er of the
opria~e that waiver
I
that ~roduct if
couldl your comments
I
I
,
I
looke~
alyzeCl.
sese
at the
the alter-
at the impact
Commission
! :
, .
Ii
i:
"
Dr. Zemans
~t wou p
There has
And what t
that it wo
have allow
aquatic ap
, this partlicu
ill be in ~io
discussiod.of
ent of Ecdlog
iolation oIf S
es by wai v:ilng
,
standards?
Commission
wjaiv
Commission
~t were ap
be in rega
,me cases, :yes. Bu~ that
q\fes i ns ias to
II I
i: I
" I
Could yo~ i co rn nt Ion the use i 0
erly in wa!ter, hat:! 's your,
t? ,.! I
. ., . 'I
I' ! i
got severall c
aquatiC pliant
d the imPClicts
!. ,
s' ! 10 fACt -0
I
"
Minutes, W ek of November 19, 119841 I
I' ,
Page 4f: . i
I "i I
Dr. Ze~ans y continued: stateiJ11entls ha'\fe talked alpo
or ex~mp. was on the Mu~icip~ it~ of Metro'$,
techni~al ommittee advising tll:l, em p , wllGl" t policy t"o
and advisi g them on the conduct o~, th~ir research
in this ar a. Metro came to dhe cb clltsion that th
ternatlves and that you should~'t,1 he~tried to di
chemicals. They in their own Iprog~i m ~se mechanica
bottom: scr ening as preferable! I alte.ona~ives. The I a
the info:-m tion, the in~ormatii(1)n ip, ic~tes that t~o
al ternat~v s to do the Job. 'l14erel' no reason to, t;
the kind 0 damage that might Il:)e c~, sed in the aqli1a
using chem~cals and personall~~ aft' r ~eviewing the
invol ved i that part:icular prolgraml, I qon' t see aIl1Y
ical pesti ide. I think it's let ver pqor practice.
the grain f all of our attemPlts tPI tr~' and prevemt
, i
, I
Commission r Pitts: In this partie la case, welte
aquat~c, t appreciate yourl!comm nt on that, it
I I
, , ,
I think it, it ~ay b a~ archaic pra
the increase.: I I
I I II I
r Pitts: In your p~esep atd~on you talke
on an you stated t~at ~ 5,% of the c.s
ome con, excuse me,! 'ther wals some drift
in 3/4 of the cases! it ~ feqted the stJte
t that that was caui~ed 1:> m~nmade errqIj
re you saying that i~n a~c8lse, in anyti:h
a car, or shooting, a gp , W:hatever, w~ .
tate that if those ~egul tidns had beert
was not there, thatl, tho~ p~actices we~e
r zones and those w~terf I I ! .
y: No, I thinks id'.s al aiJconclusiort:
i i 1'" ,
esented in that part;icu: r ~ase to saylt
had beent tally complied with, th~ ydu still wo~]
contaminat' on. The, practices t-rere! ot ladequate to '
contaminat' on. In the eight iptens velly studied ca
cases 0, f p' lot err o,r ", So thatl,, 50%! ' f ;h" e, intensi ". ei",
they had p'lot error and threelof ~iose,three of It
error occu red, the error was pverE ig t, the dir~c
s,tream. lone of the cases, ~heyl imp!ly violated
They didn' directly overfly the stlea;. The inten
the dif,fiC lty in com,PlYing 100,.,%' ! f o,u comply ~O
to have dr'ft which is going t~ re$'lt in water pql
is, tha, t i very difficult t,'o ~venl pprloach 10% cqm,
about a pi otflying an aircra~t. I'm a pilot , I If
difficult 0, I don't fly heliqopt~ IS, [I fly fixed
difficult 0, for example the pNR F resltpractices,
and 50 foo buffer zones. It'~ dif icult to fully ·
frankly th se are very inadquat;e bu ferl.zones in my
the kind 0 drift that can reatJrily I 'ccur 15 and 25
inadequate to prevent, you cou~d hfe s~ath displac:
a degree. Particularly when ypu'r~ltalking about If
sloping te rain and terrain unf1ulat: onsl. Those k~n
just don't hack it. : I I
I' I !
I'm ta:::~:e ::~:i:t ;::~:e::~ed
i . I I
Commission r Pitts: You said ~hatl Ihe primary degr
was one m~cro ~al break owh an~lwe'!ve heard a1;o
Could you characteri.ze or give[ ,us ~ I percent of whcj.t
Is 75,80% or the others, p otqdegt dation, do yo~
that, or? !.
i I
I,
! :
'lOlL
o fAG~
n-
,
t, aqua
Metropo
adopt :i
severcj.l
re were
courage
harves
, if yo
e are iC
ke the
ic envi
literat
reason
It goe
waterp
ic application
itan Seattle's
this case
years ago
better al-
the use of
ing and
examine
st effective
isk and cause
onment by
re and being
o use chem~
against
llution.
not spe king of water
was SQm what of a...
about
s there
from zo
m. Was
in thos
ng wed
ave'ma,n
ollowed
adequat
at is hopefully
tudies by the
was stream,
e that was in-
your intent
particular
, whether
made error,
and the man
to protect
research
at if it e practices
have h d water
ave pre ented water
es they had four
y studi d cases,
e four here pilot
oversp ay of the
he buff r zone.
ther~ as to indicate
% you'r still going
ution.' But the problem
liance. We're talking
y aircr ft, it's
ingair raft, it's
talks a out 25 foot
omply w th those,
opinion Because
eet sim ly is totally
ment of that great
rest si uations with
of buf er zones
aircra t?
dation
about
percent
ave an:y
f '2 4-D
. ,
hdtodegradation.
gel is primary.
filgures on
-1
----
II
.1 I
,
,
Minutes, Week of November 19, 1984 I
Page 43: ; I
I I
Dr. Zemansky: It would depend,' agaltn, pn the spe,ii
ah, the lieterature. in, dicate? t,.hat I,fhe IP",hotodegr,, a a,
ponent of it. Part~cularly ~nwate~ and the only p
be subject to photodegradation ',WOUl~ bel that th~, t1r,
in the sunlight. If you have,mostllof lit's going t
Particularly after percipitatidn, a~d t~at's eith~r
the ground or being washed off in rtimoflf. Some l~t:
to go back to specific cases, 't\There' I the~ have tesqe
in laboratory tests, they usually f~, nd ~t' s at a ~u
the microbial degredation. ; iT I . I
II I I
Commissioner Pitts,: Y, ou were t.,alki~"g a~.o.ut incr".,e~ls
very wet soil conditions. Using wh~tev~r, averag
ever range you think, how muchincr~aseldo you fe 1
~alking about a, ~oubli~g of tqe ha~f-l~fe or are ,w
~ncrease or what ~s an ~ncrease? II I I
Dr. Zemansky: Well, it's hard to q~ant~fy that'b~c use res
hasn 't been done to try and put, any! I num~ers on thBit You' :r
about if you go beyond in the 'area,! of ~he soild Bib ve the
if you go beyond the f,ieldcapa, ci tyll of ~hat. And It e field
is defined as the amount of watler tp.at :Will stay ~n that, t
of soil, by gravity. If you go abo~e that field sa acity ~
through that by gravity, it doelsn' t:1 sta~ in positiJo. You
field capacity point then you expec~ thf degradat~o rate t
Commissioner Pitts: So in very sat~rat6d soil, tJe
longer half life. II II
,I i.
II I I
. ij I ,I
Commissioner Pitts: I guess I didnl't upderstand ~x
We're talking about" and are pHis cl~serlto equal.i~r
persist longer at this pH, let 'is saN ati 7, or de;> tjh
at lower pHs, of 2 or 3 or? ~'I ,I
i I . I
Dr. Zemansky: Okay, the work on hy rolpsis, which; ;
have longer persistence at lower pH'. At a pH of 16
10 times as great as at 7. . II i' I
Commissioner Pitts: Okay, 10wejr pH~. poes this Je
have a pH problem identified wi,th sqme ~cid rain iln
primarily Asarco ,and certainly on !he ~ast coast la
and in Europe where we have some rei 1 acid proble,s
that by the presen~e. of lower P',H an po~sibly those
not, that are sens~t~ve, and wou, ld Ue k~lled at a 1
increase the half-life now of 2,4-D~in rater in a1
'I, "
Dr. Zemansky: Well, if you had acid rain you woulld
pH down to, around, it would be below 5 ~rObablY' iln
have longer persistence, yes. The pH 0 natural ria
acidic and what happens to it alfter lit its the' grlo
mineralization of you. rground ar.,.., ea." BUf..' th. ere "ar1e
which are acidic. pHs less than 7. I I
Commissioner Pitts: You talked abo t c~ronic low Ic'
materials, and I don't know exc~, tly w,ha~, y,ou're,tall,
are you talking about a year, are y~u r~lking aboJt
with potential impact? And, wi,th lQw cpncentratioh
earlier this evening, that the$'e va#iab~e concentrla
in accumulation, could you comment fln tpat? ,I
II I, . I
Dr. Zemansky: Well, first of al,ll c~rontc is, unfd1r
good descriptive term .of what the p.j}obl~m is. That
I
ic con~
ion. isl
rtion :t
mains '0
leave
by infi
rature,
for ph
h lower
tions but
minor com-
at would
the surface
he surface.
tration into
I'd have
todegradation
rate than
in .hal -life with
ou thin , or what-
there i. Are we
talkin about SO%
Dr. Zemansky:
Right.
arch generally
talking
ater table,
capacity
at layer
ter drains
o over that
slow down.
ld have a
pH range.
r do they
t longer
ed, would
a persistence
n that hen we do
thePac'fic Northwest,
d in ea tern Canada
Does his mean
microbe that are
werpH, does this
cidrai condition?
be lowe
that ca
nfall i
nd depe
alot of
ncentra
ingabo
20 yea17
that w
.ions ar
I
I
I
il
II
M~r
:l 0 rr.~'(f
ing your
e. You could
, is already
ds on the
natural waters
iosn of these
t, by chronic
, or 40 years
just heard
not a problem
not a very
the term
I '
Minutes, Week of No e.ber 19, 984
Page 44: l
~r~nZ:~~*:k~O~O~~~~I:' su~ga;s~~g~l~fU~:U~Ot~:~~~t~
a certa~n dose. Bu, for examPle ,:rou Icould have I J
dose causing a "chr n' c" effect,' 4,Pte~f, E},re,nce Wi~h,
for example, or som t ing thatwouL~ o~ly have tO~b
a short time during s awning seasonl tOJProhibit s a
go, od infO,. rmat,ion on w H"., a., t those :'.'" chr ~tiC ef, fe..cts a, r
pesticides .We kno . hat there ar~ so e effects T' h.
less than the acute d see What tho effects are
they occur, we simp y don't havegd d ~nformationlo
hasn't been done. nagain, the ~iute toxicity, IW
an LCM an LC50, whe e, half of ~our I es~ or?anismsld
that's half of them ding at that ~' se.1 D~fferen4'
individuals of any i en organism, I, av~ diffe~entls
r~~e~a~:s:s~hole ra g"there where I[om:el o,rg,an,sms IW,
Commissioner Pitts: 0, I canassu, e rom what yq-q
about accumulation the chem:4cal i ut, in fact , a'
by an acute episode II I I
Dr. Zemansky: You 0 ld have a chJbni~ effect by a
to speak, some dose 1 ss than #he ~tfeqt ,that wou~d
for example, but mi ht cause a.llongtr elffect that~c
to mortality. Ifi interfers IWithi~th~ ability 0 '
example, or if it k'lls fish tq.,rou, g" thie .,organism ,1
b~ the same as mort'lity even thou~ itl's not ac t
t~me of the dose. . II i,,'. I
i: I
Commissioner Pitts: ut, ac,cumullation of 1h:
Dr, Zemansky: Not I
I
I
II think YO,
I I
I I
r, hy is thatl?
soil itself?;1 I I
a,combinatton of thb herbicid~
me her iCi~,es a~e llless susceptii
, ii' '
, I
: I
Unidentified man: bsorb some SOilir I , '
Dr. Zemansky: , . some soil typ~s afe, have a hi
than others. ,If yo have for exampl e, I~ery fine so'
of organics, they t ndto e, have I hi~her absor~ti
th<;1t any ,herbicide au "put on t,hat ! o~l'I' w~ll hav~ :"
be~ng absorbed. Tha 1 ke;a coarser g, a~n so~l, wit
percentage of organ'cs, for examplel A6, some pe t
to be absorbed. 2,4-D, is verY~lmOblile, it's rtol
if it is 'abso, rbed i 's, likely d"o bel, onl~ weakly a~ s
tible to further mo em nt b percip tat~on, for ela
leaching it through th, soil.: ! I
I I I
, , I
Do ou ;know! of ~ny, one 0 '
ago wasl, wh: n these two g ,n,
ancy to ,clin' to! soils and Is
akes me 'wondi r if our, ha 'e
testing as ~PPolsed to wat~ri
ve b ep isomeil tes~s of that t
t, might be i,ralk~ng about, t
ave erbicid, s absorbed on It
, I
I I
10 ,aGE .,
II
condit
ganisrns
st a sh
migrati
in the
ing.
t what
ch will
nd at w
that.
take a
e at a
rganism
nsitivi
II die
acute
cause ,.
uld eve
he fish
the eff
morta.l
Chairman 'Brown:
?
Dr. Zemansky:
Dr. Zemansky: It's
soil properties. S
than others
gher ab
ls with
ve capra
grea tie
ewer,W
cides a
likely
rbed an
pIe,' Wa.
Dr. Zemansky:
things that I
in the water.
839
ons other
dying at
rt one time
n of salmon
water for
e don't have
oses of what
occur and
at levels
The testing
figure for
ertain dose,
, and different
ies. So,
t much
're not talking
ffect caused
pisode, so
ortality
be equivalent
to feed for
ct would
ty at the
al? Right?
mobility
because
s and the
sorption
orption capacity
high amounts
ity. So
chance of
th a lower
e less likely
to be absorbed
very suscep-
hing it off,
s that came
ntionedthat
then washed
s been tested,
t of the
ide in solution
soil
Commissioner Pitts:
here.
Commissioner Dennis
Chairman Brown:
Commissioner Pitts:
Chairman Brown: We
John. B~cause we h
the industry, so, t
other side.
Chairman Brown:
Unidentified man:
em with alot of fac
so that's...
Commissioner Pitts:
and B.G.have indic
and Dr. Witt, Dr. D
of each other. My
toxicologist. Coul
DF Witt Or Dost:
Commissioner Pitts:
There's a, lot of conf
to the differences t
in 2,4-D. That hast
pesticide with a, 0
and some people fee
to have you commentl
Unidentified woman:
the 2,4-D form, whe
formation in some
Unidentified man:
unidentifie
at s owe a
and the tricholoro
but salts, those we
them. They found d
Unidentified man:
Same man as previou
Of
III
I ,
I
1984
, I
sediments
could have
eam system
t of the
turbulent
anslocated
to the
her people
re once,
made by
to the
rYe
ocked to-
lear through.
o bury
questions
as Larry
Zeman sky
sk questions
're the
is room...
the chemist?
r one 0
o and c
nd the
r mean:i.
ith the
you then.
, in regard
'oxin that's
the other
ame brush
I'd like
rring t
sence 0
Not
way we
the Canadian
the 2,7
e acids
efer to
orget,
384
Minutes, Week of Nove
Page 46:
(DrJ Dost or Witt)con
a ress t at one, t e
esters than it was in
of the same original
more often in the est
they were using in Ca
two steps in the orga
acid ester as a singl
When youido that you
as a solvent for itse
the dioxins. Whereas
choloro acid, then yo
you don't for any add
you end up not formin
(Unidentified woman):
process to esterify.
i
(Dr. Witt or Dost):
to combine with the p
That was done in Cana
incidents in the freq
in the United States'
both ~n frequency and
And a~ I under~tand i
to el~minate entirely
step.! I haven~t seen
:1-984
i I
inued: 50-60,% i cid nce in tj: e sal
'reason it,: was,i ap ear ng mor reque
the salt$, YO'p k ow, they'r : akin
tock, 'or i the)fl mi ht e anYw~" why
rs? Becausel'n ,hat manuf a~. rin"g,.
ada, they wer r all colla s'ng wh
lc synthesis ne T ey wer : sing
: condensation ag nt ith th~i hloro
n,' d up, in, eff ct f, he ~i~g t e pheno
f and that's he Icon ~t~oh t you
if you make, 'f )fou ombinelt e phe
're operating un4er ifferehtt react
',tional dioXin,' t~e,n ou est~~'fy l:a
: them, tne di xi~s. I
': I I
: When you est ri1Y' ou hav 0 use e heating
t was when yo uJed he est ~'fied ch oro-acid
enol that you go~th addit'O al diox n production.
a. If you re al~, t at the ,~ equi te different
~ncy of <tlioxi 's l<'ipp arance 2,4-D ormulations
products!comp red to Canada oducts. We're lower
in levels tha w~re,ound b uite'dr matic numbers.
., the 2, 4-D t at I is", 'roduce ow, the 've managed
from the,U.S. sY1tem that k of dou le synthesis
data that pro es lit, but th ~'s what understand.
, Jhen ound al of that
di~tel ! n sampl s of all
ingfo DCDD wh ch is a
e ~n i the mo ecule called
zodioxi , all right
this. Andwe've
east so e.Okay,
the Ca adian stuff.
s of IU. . formulations.
~n ttie that is the
~!~~I;~ i:~:r~~!llion.
sma 1 mount of
s in th se in a
is D DD. It is ex-
was xa ined 10 years
at in Fe ms 0 i 's ability
e that a 1 2, -D is contamin-
stantikl y ab ve the amount
1 tOXi'~ y, i c uses some
o cons som th'ng on the
of bo weig t hich is not
t very t XiC'~ N w, the TCDD
Now, 't's l'ttle sur-
mole ul s that are
enormous
so on, the
h the chlorine
eptors is
or if you
ere, has
n the corners.
rmously.
thing like
me , it's more...
,s, and to
t y in the
h stuff out
ld it appear
cess that
should be
chloro-
nolo
using it
art to form
with the
conditions,
, and so
Dr. Dost : The sta
in th~ Canadian produ
the UI. S. formulations
molecule~-this ,is dio
dioxi~. 'Two oiygens a
fine.1 And the 12,7 th
known! from the 'beginn
fine,1 Cochran finally
The EPA immediately p
They ~ooked at :33 for
dichlbro in three of
billibn. Ther~ were
Therel are, there is a
other! two were in one
anoth~r four-chiLoro,
moment, and then ther
ceedipgly limited tox
ago fpr carcinogenici
to cause birth!defect
ated ~t 100 parts pe~
they ~ound, ah~ to pr
pathoilogy in the hear
orderi of 10 kilograms
entirely a reasonable
the ohe that's iin 2,4
prisihg, when you thi
so si~ilar in ~ppear~
difference in ~iologi
biochemists, have wor
on ea:ch corner' the ab
very,~ery high~ You ove this'chlo in~ to
have lit symmetrical s ' that you this one h
rather limited,activi y. You've got t~ha
If yo~ take one ofth m away, it di in~she
Howev,:er, ,if yo, t;l". have ,chlorine,,: here a1d h
the fpur......chlor0, bu~ :t' s pretty hot s 1uff
!: ' I
Unide'ntified mtn: toe toxic than tworChl
Dr. iDost Oh, itl'S. vastly m?re toxicr th
chlor,o is on t~e orae, of one-tenth of I the
the general idea with respect to t e dlffe
DCDD,: the one that' seen found in 2, 4tD,
at tile time that theanadians i stl1ff war i~ ::c:t~'r
ro, the six
DD. So, that's
le ules. The
d hat this was
ry ody turned
~~~~t~~; Week if NT
I, , I
Dr. Dost: co~tinued
t ere pro a y'~sn t
to life without a c0n
also been look~d at!f
cinogen. They'have!f
it is, it causes some
is a suggestive possi
not believe that th~y
required to produceit
several thousand ti~e
, I
Unidentified man: ~o
and a mutagen? :,' i
I
, I
Dr. Dost: Yes, okay,
carcinogen is a chemi
terms it means ia ch~m
change, which then $v
to betnanifested asia
will cause in alrea~y
the so called co-carc
of fact even less eff
an interactioniwith!g
that is reflected i~
of organisms.
Unidentified Man:
correct?
,
Dr. Dost: Welt, muta
DNA, is fairly ireacti
reactive with biologi
, ;
i
Unidentified man: yo
correct?
Dr. Dost~ I said it
mutagenicity is que~t
Ames tests by tihe h'liln
can cause somejchro~o
, ,
bench tests, relatiye
you try to get the sa
ways come up n~gative
carcinogen. You sh6u
Unidentified man: Yo
Dr. Dost: All right.
conservative, certain
I
off, but they, theyia
don't show the effect
: !
,
Commissioner Pitts: I
troduce, this ~s CO$m
boring county, ,so we
a couple other ,questi
Tom Jay:
tormat.
, I
Yeah; I j\ls
We're :going
,
,
Commissioner Pftts:
Tom Jay: We're not g
questions asked.
Commissioner pitts:
lation, 'mutant? 4Tc
,
Dr. Dost: Well that
middle 60's.
I
lJ~t
e4era
I
h~t 2 4-D is a mutagen. Is that
eJk 1agen.
, \fhat it does,
, Iwi t no res!?
i~s i , in vi tli
tt},he lthy cel
i~tac animal
h1t i 's fair
I ~
, I jus
,
~~btC
!
h~s u
nes f
~r.
i
I
u1e t at we s~'ck to our original
I
I
e !tha stateme t....
I
I
ug we're going to have questions..
uJSti n associ ted with this formu~
, dorr ct? At ne point.
,
I
b~bly got that figured out in the
,
I
I ,
I '
11 'HCf
19,
984
to and
ything
aminant
carcin
it, fo
atholog
le carci
should c
t, the
body we
you e
Do
,
I
,I
ve-r:Y
nable. 'It!i
eds, li1i:er~l
mal abncprmal'
short tend
thing 0ut 10
Ah, I think
get...~
up anq as Jim says
-D is much easier
the'two-chloro has
considered a car-
the total diet, and
thologists can say,
e review panel do
The doses that are
on the order of
,
d'fferencJ between a carcinogen
t e simpli t definition is a
ncer, a in it's broadest
e, cuas~ the first biochemical
t becom~, well if it's going
also re ers to promoters which
off and,'t'll also refer to
a chemi al more, or as a matter
a chem1 al that can cause
either: irectly or indirectly,
cells, he next generation
Isn't that
lular c
interacting with
ing, if they are
he evidence for it's
it' ,s been through
nse~ it is ah, it
systems, that is,
s, ect. Whenever
xperiments, they al-
o c.,ll it a weak
in the 'nterest of being
n't writ those positive tests
f identi al tests that don't
, if we're, I's like to in-
om Clall m County, our neigh-
ones as a question. I have
3842
lip
I I
I
Minutes, Week of N vember 19, I 984
Page 48: Iii
Commissioner Pitts In the ml' dlJ six~ies
res~stance y t e ndustry, t cq,emic~l, i
Now, to me if I we e a forest , I wou+d b
if I knew that I w re using s ething ~hat
carcinogenic. Now is my tiin frC}me h~re
Dr. Dost: As far carCinOgeJ,siJ is Jonc
oh I don't think t at was estal li~hed tfnti
Commissioner Pitts: How aboud tO~iCitt no ?
Dr. Dost: Well, a ,it, it' s J en ,knowJfo quite
very toxic substan e, however~lkeep inimin the sa
the, it's present .~ very smal amount~. ou know,
the 2,4,S-T, issue '~, 're talki aO"but,lwel present
on the order of a ouple of p i,ts'per ~ill'on, at
was, was cancelled or suspende', ah itlwas running
ten to 30 parts pe I billion. ,nd Ithe qalc lated e
not all that subst ntial. This is a mater'al, we'
binding, this is a material t 't reall~ st'cks to 1;:
it is not really v ty accessi Ie, land ~her isn't
see if you have a t)bstance t 't'~ exc~edi gly toxi
limited exposure, ~.,', you,may 'I erx, wel~, be in a sit
that results is li ited. Just as 'if yqu h ve a su
very toxic but you have enoTmol' s erxposire, you may'
Unidentified man:
industry attitude,
and as
dustry
very,
they kn
orrect?
1 there was
this down.
h concerned
otentially
ime, as a
iples apply,
go back to
tion is down
that 2,4,S-T
order of, oh
were really
talking about
And it's,
h there. You
very, very
where the hazard
that isn't
ting hazards.
which I thil'~s' wh~t y
I I. I
I ! I
Dr Dost: I think, that by the ti~e itlcam
this doesn't now, irst bulletoutl of t+he
it's way into ever body's head$, ~ thirlk t
it below 100 parts ~er billionf Now, ~t's
A tenth of a part ~r million,r a hunqred
and then they did ork at thatiitime to Ibri
there to 50, I can't give you It'/:1e lexac~ ti
and I perceived ,at teast, thatll Fh~y we1j'e a
towards 10, and I hink they w~jre ,tryi-q.g t
Now, whether that' I unresponsil ~ 9r n04, ,a
Dr. Witt (?): The i also fired pp 'an e~orm
search. Most of t e work,thati~dentif~es
out of industry la oratories. . I II
I ' 'I, I
, I; I :
Commissioner Pitts: I A, long tha1tl, l~,ne itt, se
~scover t at t ~s 9--chloro iSi' ~x~reme~y t
asked is, if it is extremely tp~id after t
formation made ava'1able or ge, ~rated Befo
in the environment? i I, i I I
Dr. Dost or Witt (?): Well, b~1 c~refu~ ho
see, ecause as a ontaminant:i..~ has nq va
herbicide, I'll te 1 you. And:lLt :hasrtou And,
arise are, you mak 'a hazard el' a.l~atiorl. re you 1:;
that is, that is a 1j:ually addi" ~ a,ppre9iab y to the
you will. It is, be carcinog~ idity ~tud'es show
promoter and not a very good 0, ~, iin tije s nse that
into the range whe e you're do[' g lalot lof ther kin
animal before you ~gin to seel' th~s ch1nge in tumor
Dr. (Witt or Dost): j You've gOI~.,1 td"claJifY
w en we say strong versus weak~1 '-I
i i!! i
I I i I
(Unidentified man): Relative!t;:: the anioun that ca ses 0 her kinds of
amage. ow yo put it in ~ sqlute iter s, there's one very hot....
I
I
I
in terms of
at.
them, ah, and obviously
's go to percolate
y agr ed to keep
ingh'gher than that.
bill'on. Ah,
, the went from
some ears later,
to wo k their way
se ki ds of steps.
of t xicology re-
ty of TCDD came
f in
he qu
hy wa
start
act they did
stion, I'm
n't that in-
d to be used
the rd used, you
is, t much of an
the q estions that
lking about a substance
toxic burden, if
hat is probably a
you a e clear up
s of amage to the
patte n but,...
l' UtE
we,'r
on here
END OF SIDE OF
~ 'VOL
Dr. Dost
a goo t
all of t
an enorm
people f
Minutes, Week of N vem er 19, ij,,984 I
Page 49:
ii, ~I
Unidentified man: You said pr se~t pr duc
Dr. Dostor Witt: Well, 2,4,5U is st'll
In western Europe, ~here's som~ restri9tio
have specification, s i.on the lev~,' O,fd,i9X,in contamin,
in Canada, althoug imost of th~ Provin~es ill not "
it's use. InCana~aall pestic~ e applilcation is on
a seperate permit; for e ch app~ cation. A d most a
not issue a permit for 2,4,5-Tlr ven th9ugh it's leg
level. So, 2,4,5+" ;is still b"ng use~ in the, worl
clean. Most of it, In act, tofitl th TCDD le
by current technof-ogy. I
Commissioner Pitts: Ta king a ut ethilcic in
as one quest on,' w lch comes me frelque tly in t
is the errant misliIse or misdat~ that was generated
contracted by,thr~uh E A in h gards to some of th
I realize that this is real Bight on: the indt.1str~"
try, but...' I: I '
Dr. Dost or Witt:' they w~ e contr'I'a",cted by the; procluc
Ii
Commissioner Pitts: I By the prTI ucier, o~...
Dr. Witt or Dost: lAd t is is ~ e tBT thing and, tha
hungry and ambi tiou~, n IthiU g:reedy! is a better
so much work they; c uld 't do 1J right land if youc
do it wrong. And I t ,ere were a~ ut 600 Ich,emicals in,
if I remember. Roudup. w~s on~,' 2,."" 4-D Iwl,as ot. Th
IBJr did two skin se sit v~ty..~, .
, l" I
Unidentified man: [ ell, there iran eyel irr
And both of them pa s too ih., 21,4-D
made, we should not icon ~nue tJj use 2,4rD b
I think~ that with 'ach ChemiCI~' ybu hawe t
tests that wered9n ,w re the I found t be
were invalid and yo kn w, qui:e abu'O.c we
were they impoart~,n" t,o the co :"ClU~, ionbo,u
And if they were, Iw 're here 0 her, teststh
that could be used 'nst ad. Y<Ru know y u'v
of questions befofe :you finally reach tat
rather likely reac, hd s metime~i,' hU," t inl,the
tests~ both on, mtnr t sts an1 and both of
" r
most o~ these c~ses where t ey're
concur~ent test~ng y a ,dif erent
, or thiJ,gS 1ike I his. Do th y empl
and/or Dds ot del Iberatelyl, no usuall Som
on rare qc 'asi ns th~iy will rHn p rallel ests,
?~l~ ~,~~,~~ ',~,'~~. ~~, .,,~~~ fi,~w~h", e~he~t~~r h~~:~m a~~~s~
y practide ., G P so c~llecl. T sti g labor tories
n they wer , 15!years i,gO" 10y ars ago. I used t
aboratorfe ! fo the N Itiohal C~nce Instit te,an
er now, be !,au, s t. he P, :,acti" ces, ~,re ery Cle. r ly ',de
of ah, w~l I in many ct' '~es:. An~ IB is not; the on
a~~e~~a;i~ ,~io e6~ ~~' I~~:tl ~fm~~~k 0 h;~e:r~1 ~:i~~m
A h a, s not, ',em, at, de ,d. I"t' s.,' sen S~',b,le corpora, e poli
re produqi ~ a chemic~l and yo~we e a lit, le ner
nd you lO",oed, down t'e ro, ad lp, ye rs and' ay am
d over thi !' Yfu're gf,inK to r~dO . t.
or Witt:! [or xamplel, one res It f that, that I
~ng, waslt fat, the She:ll chemial. They h dcont
eir toxicoogy and as Ila r~sul tl of he IBT I hing,
us toxicol gy esearcful standarp own in i Housto
om arounq he ountryllto stafflit. And, yu now
tation nd a s
at the ptimum
cause L was 0
say we 1 what
valid 0 inval
e right why t
shall ' e use
t could; be use
got to; go thr
onc1.usi: n that
case of; 2,.4-D,
them pa sed.
do youlmean by that?
st of t~e world.
,
in Sweden, they all
tion. ~t's legal
ssue petmits for
a, yo ~ave to get
the P ~vinces will
1 at t e national
but itl s pretty
el is ndetectable
,
I
ng and ]: have to
is wholJ process,
y a'la Ithat was
se her ~cides, and
, the 1sting indus-
~.
I
4 they were
ijey took off
ilt right you
~ll told,
,two, I think
,
I
I
~n test.
statement
~'the IBT list
ere the
" If they
~n were they
ti or not?
Ithat exist,
4gh a sequence
~eems to be
~t was two
I
I
esting these
! . .
'!jgan~zat~ons,
y! those tech-
wha
10 rAGE
,
Jimes there
jJther where
dn. You see,
Ihave good
~re a different
'review
Ithings are
jJned. In
~ one, there's
lout reasonably
~done even
~. I think
OI'uS about
going to
,
,
I
~hought was
I
Bicted out
~y they built
got good
IA company
I
I
I
I
,
I
,
I
,
Dr. Witt
w~ e,
it's a h
there, i
laborato
world th
testing
much bet
the case
lots of
well, bu
though E
is you w
a test,
get zapp
~OL
1\, .
o
I,
I
~~~~t~~; Week of No;ember 19, ~984
Dr. Dost or Witt cOI).tinued: thij stze o~ Sh
thing. I think where the . indu~try' s, iltw
work, but where It1:Hnk indust~y was ad fa
that the same company probablYllwould n~th
a 5 million dollar office builtling without
to make sure the cOI),tractor di~n't put Itoo much
something like that~ ,And had ~hey had Isom of
who didn't carry out: programs, II tha;t onoe i a w
the project site, tq make surel : nobody 'sl putting
they might have caught some of Ithose tdings alo
where I would fault industry iti this. I
, Ii, I
Dr. Dost or Witt: there's ano#her, aspdct to th
many of the large companies, cflntriact d1ut that
absolutely nothing in the worlct exciting a out
You have a set proc~dure an~ YPU put thie ceels
through that procedure, you haNe stand r, d proce
information at the end, etc. Tp.e toxicolog lab
and Monsanto, etc. Rut most ,of I It heir effort int
research. They're :looking for~lmechanisms of to
to investigate the l?'.,asic biO,lO 'y O,f the, chemiC. a
good reason, they wouldn't be ble, to eep any
were just doing test+ing. They 'do some, but not
Roundup, because we ;brought it I,up. Ro ndup did
thing, and they had~ I think tpere: were Cibo t 3
Unidentified man: You'd bette~ explai~, Roundu
same chemical. n I
I, I
Same speaker as previous: YeaH, Roundu'p a d gl
the same. There were 30, if I I :recall, do you r
there were 30 tests which werelldone by IBT. Th se
Canadian. The Canadian gove,rnW,e nt, and li7he EPA ~plf,
and Welfare, and th~ EPAspli~ the au~t of. Ther
tests, 15 which were found to ~'~ deficient. So e d
range finding tests :and they h 've n, 0 real i por anc"
process. But, they ,had to rep,;ace seve, ,of the, i
carcinogenesis studfes and a wole, bundhof oth r s
, , I;' ,
been completed, the)!',', have al.,l qome, out IC,l,ea " a , t
by EPA and are accepted by EPAI.except one t at . s s
EPA along with alot ,of other stiuff thatl has bee br
simply is sitting there without action'l A d th t P
is negative. It's i mouse carbino~enicity te~t and
hasn't put it into ~t's crank ~~t, so !lYP sate has
cleaned up. Most of the chemibals that were sh t d
episode have either ibeen just Wimply pIled off th~
may've been outdated,' or for Wh#,',tev,er relaso , or els
replaced. I II,'
: I
C, ommissi,oner PittS:,., I, 've an. e~,..tom,.,OlOgillca'l que., s
a neighbor who lived four miles south of me on
Quilcene who has com,plained !to I,m, ethat in tor
defoliation, with hE1rbicides, fie's: lostl all of
or four days of the '.,'.,sp, raYi,ng. ~I '"Wh, a',t effect is,, t
to those bees and with thos~ t :0 ipcide ces, an
tell me, I don't thfnk he's fa ricatingthis.
insects and and what[, other kin4 of, dyna ic shou
by this sort of activity? D
D,r. Thomason ?: . ,we, II " '"it,' sjlkno~, t at some" erb,
toxic to bees. What isn't kno'r'(n, is t at some erb
toxic but indirectly toxic bec~'use of t e effec s t
the blooms of the p~ants that he bees are isi ing
from Washington Stat[e Universi ,'y is thel, has the we;
kind of thing. And,: as it turfi.s out certai hetbic
effect upon the kinds of suga~s that are being pro:
and some s,ugars are '"toxiC ,to b~"es., An~I' ',t is i to
of getting to be poisoning. B~t, I dOLi' t ow, I h
I1nidenti fied Man: ria you know ,i"'ha't Cheri ca1 s a e
shoul have a good
t did the dirty
at IBT thing, was
t a co tract to build
me ins ectors on the site
in the cement or
own toxicologist
wonder d through
sand i the concrete,
lier. And that's
that is that
ine. There's
toxicity.
ls or whatever,
aluating the
Dow and DuPont
rly basic
y're trying
or a very
tist~ if they
ght mention
n the IDT
sate are the
d Rodeo are
numbers, Mary,
ited by the
anadian Health
f those 30 <;:,
were just
registration
two different
hey have all
II be approved
n a desk in
EPA, and
r test also
just simply
etty well
hat, that
because they
rk has been
ah, d you, I hav
ay 101 in south
de spr yings with
eeswi hin three
What 's happening
rust t is man to
s happ ning to tho e
be co cerned abou
cides
cides
at the
Dr.
ld aut
des wi
uced b
indir
veno
re definite y
re not dire tly
have upon
arl Johanso
ority on th s
1 have an
those bloo s
ct method
uel for....
VOL
1 0 rM~~
ed?
I
Week of November 19, 84 I
I!~ :
Commi~sioner Pitts: This is th tding ,I do not!knQ specifically and
I hav~ asked him to ask roadsi~ W~OT Ithat....f...'.. I' e talked
to WDqT about what they have ~ ed and ,have a list f those things. He's
trying to identify the times,aQ~ t e d~tes. Myique tion I guess, and
part of the question that we'rb be ng asked her~ is, Do I think that
a, an owner of the bees has a [ a$ nab~e rights! ,whe it c mes to being
trespassed against? In that PFit ti ula~,situation, nd has not had any
satisfaction from WDOT in this i: nsanc~s. And f'm onder'ng how do you
approach these problems? 'I i
: I I
I' , ,
man: You know, i~' s ~tanda, rd practice
to make very, certl',:"" n~hat all bee-tep,
Commissioner Pitts: Herbicfde~
, I
Same unidentified previous $pe~~er: Yeah, I kn~w ~
you now, we re ta ng a out 1, e' r~ talking iabo
of course an ~nsecticide isobY10u ly going to lpe 11)
you do~'t jusd automatically a$kum. th~t, as a pat~
herbic~des ar~ really not verYJ~ox c d~rectly to th
is making is 1ery important. +'m li1tle surptise
quickly. But'l ah. " 'I'
, ,I
I I! I
Unidentified man: There are a1 t f o~her reas9ns
be dying that iare not in anywa1 re ate<i to the ~erq
Commissioner ~ittS: And the fi st timJ he disc~unt
well it's jusu incidental. Th~1 se ond Itime it );1app ned,
it happened, e was concer, ned rid id 9,,0, ntact. tteI?, T and
Dr. Thomason (?): Well, I thi*~ t e p~oper people. 0 con
more i e y W A. The Department f A~riculture i estig
and I think i~ this man wantedi~o, res it at tJi1:at! oint
an inspector 9utand examine t~se dea bees. an~ ta e the
chemical anal)fsis to d, etermine I ow mucq.. They ~an: 'ven a
sugars for th~tmatter. i I I.' I
Another Unide~tified man: And,fe hou~d know w~at ,
and it would Be helpful first, :pne of clhe problfms
like this is clhat oft7n times ~pbo y h~ars about u,
later, you kndw, and~t set th$ e nd ftestered .knd.
something, YOj' see, well by thc;t t'me ~t's too tate
mental measur ments. 'It;:'d be V ry nic~,as soon! as ,
happens if it can be ..,rep, or, te, d, i,' he her I,i, t' s ',tru~, 01;,'
get out and gt samples and fi~ 0 t. iIf an~ndivt
has been expo ed, a physician $ ou d g~t urine .{tnd'
put them in t~e freezer. You c n lways look at t
if it turns out to be useful t6 do so. I i
I I i
Unidentified ~an: Sometimes, W en youlinvestig*te
you'll find s~me odd ..th, ing. s. ~,." re emb~r, one we I,wer
over near ah,was over in Easte n reg~nnear t~e
had about 25 ives, and one day, a,~l o~, a sUd, den t
up. And the Eagent asked I s ~o d~'somethi~g q.
started out w t t e" re~ lY~Scr~tching hfs
plea e analyze these ~ ad bee~ for poi~on~
and long and .nrewardin9 trail + at, W~ did fif,d, 4
there are th~ gs about l,t that I trck ~e as odd~ b~
of chlorodane there. , And, the I hi~gs ~hat the tou
about the bee kill, S",O, un"d ed, S<h.'."",~e.,~.f ,tl}e, m sou.' nd e,.d a
too, so I ask d, called up the; ou ty Agent andias!
back over to hat place and ri~ of th~ front b~ar
hives. Send e the board from, om of Ithose hiVes.
those and ana yze tn, em and f~ ndJ,alotr of chlotod
the man's hiv s, you know, wholwan'j-ed ~o kill h~s
died of insec icide poisoning. I !
I i
, I
Unidentified
insecticides
going on.
,
i
VOU 10 rAtE
at, b
tap
ch mo
r of
poin
it::h
t I say,
sticide. And
e potent, but
act most
that Gary
ppened that
e man's could
and said
he second time
ah. . .
act would be
tes bee kill
e could have
back for analysis
alyze for those
ls were used
y situation
to three weeks
somebody says
to ge gocdenviron-
ometh:ng like that
just n allegation
ual, if a human
lood amples and
m a m nth from now,
he de ails properly
inve tigating was
laua ountains and
y all had their toes
d sen me to, it
ad yo know, if you
Well, that can be
hlorbdane and
here was alot
t described
littl odd to me
d him, I said go
on so e of those
He d'd. We extracted
S mebody sprayed
nd sure they
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~~~~t~i; Week( November 19, ~198 {I ,
Commissi~ner f, itts: So this w~s t ef" this w"s
I 'I I
Same Man I as a~ove: It's a maliplio ~ ct. .
Another rl,an: I Yea, but what I' ~ g i,t n~ at, YOUhl.Wi
:you kn<;w i my :vfr story for the filay. I h~n too, t, er
~nvest~gate :Lt. There may be mor jr v$aled theh m
avail th~mselres of. They sho~ld ,e p'flrsued. i
Another ~an: One other thing allo " h~t same l~_ne
avail rirself I of putt, ing a sigi>,.'1 0, r here saying ,.
Commissi<;>ner fitts:Well, thi~ :ts 0 e'of the ques
ig way <!in ,t ose are disregarp.led n ~ County rig
there but no n the State. SO!~I t t a I very import
, ,
Unidentified ~an: The State d~isr a _d~ those? i
I '
itts: Well, youl ca s eak to tha~ b
veeef to ; t at the State :t,gn fe those, by: pr
unidentif,'ied $an: US,uallY the~"I'l r1<, in Ore~on
on arrangements with the prope~lty ers that, iit'
tain w,eed fre~ conditions, andiif property ~wn
the weed+free condition then t~ey $0 ahead ~nd
. I 1 :
itts: I don' t w~nt to i~t, i,mate t~ a
artment: of Trans~or <lit'om. by my s[tat
ve to c,all and ap,.lk ~,a question,! so
as fact. Okay.: T *t's hearsay tha
i I .
Mr. PittSl-l-.
Commissioner Wait a miHut
format here. I :1
Woman: This ts to the, this iM t
Commissioner ~rown:Well, theM
be to the poift though.is the ~ro
I think that rrobably ~f you h~ve
to give tt tOf'Tom Jay, because: lwe'
woman:" i, ~n to say, it's nO~,i a
I'm sorry, ok y? . I
Commissioner ~rown: Okay. ! I
, II
Commissioner Dennison: I ah, ,~ a
I don 't know, I I can ' t rememberl'lno
chemical; is washed into the st~ea
" ' 1
Unidentieied ~an: I think we ~ro
I ' I
, ' II
Others togeth~r: Yeah. 1 I
; I, ,I
Commissi9ner Dennison: Is tha,~,
to the sri1 p~rticles, is it e~si
I ' I,
Unidentified ,an: It's moderaldel
r. Zema~s y n ~cated, it'll~if
it is,' Wh, ether it's an ester ~'.'.,'r
ionized pr I for suc' t
as a totfLl actd in J "
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Unidentified
awa
out as is,
oper ways
ps could
to
this man
,'?
his is a State
have jurisdiction
t though as
an I can because
ine.
try to work
them to main-
to maintain
ere that the
re, does or
don't take
d,people have
from our
I,
e, pt-obably a;ll
e ' if we onc!e 0
qUfstion itiwo
e g~ing to alllo
thpug . A qu stion o~ DOT.
!
tions wiJll
thing ~p.
ell for iyou
que
thi
be
,
stion it' sf a
I
,
,
inform~tion.
questiion to Mr. Zemansk~.
rom, b t that the
pardici es? 0 said that?
agreie i
could be.
;
~at ['m curio~s bout i , does ljt cling
r a~hed off ~helsoil p rticles land...
I tie~ to the ;soi parti les, an4 as
r a~cording ~o hich 0 the de~ivatives
It,lor pre-~cid and wether it's
t ib's ioni~ed, it's r -established
I,
~o 347
,
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Minutes, 1 Week ber 19, 198
Page 5'3~, I, II ',1 .,1 i :
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comm.s',si6ne,r ,enniso,n: I Okay, W,.,lell t,' rP,y questib"n
s ow up .tnseiiments, ,rtther thin tr w~ter and~f
Unid ntified man: We 1 J it w01.lild ~6me I because pf
o , f enlYou ie ooki ,gJlfor pesltict~esb I like ~o
the flqu.. at:, ic s, s,t~m, y', :',u know, t, ~e ~t,.,I"re<!lm. " rathe.,F,-'. t
of s~d~ment 0 d~ffer n, partsul ~au,~ you reall
you ~now~ sev,ral par Is lof the ~q ticisystem wren
aminr a streaT for pe It~CideS"~Tiwa~er,the s~di
and possibly fl:he fish,: 40r exam lej! wi~h DDT, and
unde:rst", a.".n..,dS tliat2,4-.,."'.,, is, not p',.,..,iO-, C..'.,CUI]1.u", late th,~ w
,times there i confus 'io~ about' tha ' '~ they both! ha
and ~ver~body kno:"s. a :01ft DDT" r.n thet~' s some~im
welll all the est~c~d ,s Ida that. If CQUrse, th~y
woul~ a,. 1rh',o,st e fO, oli I,h i to lOOk., I fol!, it 1, in the w~.' ,te
skiPl th, e, '. wate and lo k i for it" lin h,' e t, ish,' caiJse
gonne; find th most Q it. With! 2,tD 1 would look
the fi.,Sh.., "are uc h ,mor, ~n eqUai.".,I,ibfl.l',.I",.m r,~,'th the W.i,', ',at
Comm~ssi~ner ennison I Okay, s~ t +n you're . .i.
I . I I I. , '. i !
Man: i If, we' r4 talkin 4bout ani a ,~a+ agEd exppsu
a we~k or twolweeksol . I' We st~~t l~ok+ng through
you ('., look '1 for th ,t I immedi{l~e 1rift, you knpw,
an afpliTatio ,you m'lg~t as we~l ffst! look atfhe
Comm' ssiqner ,enni so'!:! I Well, fat If' 1111 palking f bo tis eros ion ,.
Samel Man! Ye~, subse 'u~nt to t~e. l aIPplicatioh..
, I .,' ,
Comm~ssioner ennison:1 I Yea, an6 I hav$n' t actu~ll
n t~rms.,o .m,asureme 't~ in se?~me fS *nd what ~ff
bottpm feed~ng. I I II I i
I " II' . I, I: ,
Un~d~ntified. ~an: I. iaJ speak ~o hat ~ becaus~i th e are studies.1 A
fa~r~y c.,+aS,s~1al meth ." ',d lof sett"."fn" g Iu.,',., p ,<il"", study ~n" t e laboratory, ils to
is tp, put, y,u've go i cj.n aquar'ulal+ right, and it's got sedi ept
at the, b,~ttoml and it'ls Igot the Pl&lfl.' t,l,lfe and t,',he fish, a.nd pos ibly
two ~r t~ree qifferen i ~evels9f biptaiin the, bf imal biota i ~here.
Intrpduce thelmateri<;t I 4nd then pe todically sainPl. in the sedim nit, in
the fatelf, ~nlthe an~ a~s and s e <pw ~he whole!th g,balances 0 tI.
And now; i do~ng that 0 It I in the, it ~ done in pop-ds let's say. I dion' t
knowlof, a,.nYbo1y that's ., iie,d this','n .,Istteam becafise it does,n't ma ei too.
much sen~e inla strea . I You've go'!a Wond, a b~av pond alrigh lis
a gOr' d e*amp}~, . becau Ie I there y u' ~ g~t usually petty. deep sed: rri'en~.
Lots f gunk ~1 ~n the .e I and once t ~ material g~t wn ~n there t, w~ll
tend to ,Q, e pr,tty slo :.lY, degrad,.,., ~d e,', ca*, se there!' s oxygen, down t,here
and ft doesn'~ go ver . ~ell wi1:J,1oi oxygen. Bu1=" and it's p sisible
to 1 ok at it~onthe ISj'diment.1 IiotliIer words:, i you pull it uit a
wate sa~ple ~hat' s g it lots ofl se :f-me~t in it,! yo can sort it u:t.
Ther~'s ~n eqtjLilibriu' 4nd you'fIlay 1j1otlbe entir~ly sure of what 't! was
like in., .t;:he beginning Ib,4t if YO, M s P,' ara" te it qUjl..,'Ck and then an llY, ze
and xtrC/.ct tij.at sedieqt, YOli' Fa I fin4the materi 1 if it's the e!, as
welll as 1indiig it in Itq.e waterl pe 'i se 1: '.
I , I ' , I . I, : . '
Comm~ssioner I~ennison: IOkay, wry <;>esril.'t it make
~t ~p t ~ str~am. i I 'l
samei ma~,;, We~,'l, be, ca :s~ the stl ea is taking r~gh
aprFtty . slowl stream. ' I :
commk,',SS., i,.J.,.,nerJe,n ,n i.,SO,h.:! tiWell, Y6ahj but: the str~am is
port ons:o t e strea here th~ s rea~ is not tak
it wjtll . ~ettl out, a 'd ,then t~~re tare I also esti-tar'
strefm Wh,ere ~t's goi 'g!to sett e 'rlt.1 i
I ' I '
samelman..:,. Oh yeah, w :l~ it the~1 'vl:do~e work o~ estua,ries, ah t ei Canadians
have~1 don.e, the most, b It lah gene ally people d 't, In a flowing sitream
the illution rises s I ltast tha I thimk people!...
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;, '1' 0 'Ll ~i - 3848
'VOL I t\ J-i
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,en is, would ilt
e sediments a~e...
, '
oth. r like to. speak
peak of analyzing
an water exclusii ve
need to looka't ah,
ou' regoing to. ex-
ent, the plant Ilife,
I think that e~erbody
DDT does, but, some-
e D's in their name
sa general assrumption
on't. With DD~ it
You might asl well
that's where yoiu're
at the several ~arts,
I
i
e, that is' one :that's
e. other parts.; If
like you're mon!i toring
ater you colle~t.
heard anything yet
ct that has on i
I
also there
right off
at the end
19, 98
Same Man;
lif
, I
th~ w
I
~ut
I
, I
,
: i
t's n the wate , right?
er, ,t's being arried out.
f it: s on the s diment, if it's in
! '
I
I
e p~ tinent, to get this, to
fir~ ~s: let's consider the
eral: y, there'd be about the
ostll: ituations. But the
to. ive you bi problem, w y some
llYj , een conce ed with, ah, aive
edilp: nt itself, and you're go'rig to
eenj . hat's in t e sediment an iwhat's
rob~ ly not muc effect from hat~
, wJit t's it goi g to effect? There's
, de Irade it fairl ~apidly,
eally concern d about
I
u find it. S,I I'm
y be a good i ea tto
sure you'd le ~n a
i
I
,
I
ilng clear
yi're on
He water
I
o me that 'f you're spra
ecially if th
irectly into
n.
water is arrying.
a, an bea probl
lo~ ed at this
Ie or as, and h
He ~. s writte, n
lith I ,s or not,
i ery ~ ! he's prob
, af he has re
t pr-' tty carefu
I
I
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,
I'v$ heard from
idem e was that
cl" beach, th
y at the clam b
very problem.
s established
n execellent
e ought to se
ly done more
iewed the beh
ly and I thin
IThat
that they
eiview,
q it up
qrk in
V!ior of
iwe ought
!
aquaculturist
when the rail
re seemed to
d after the s
th. was right below where t
I
I
I
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wasi he railroa
, I
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'hut it off
unning rig
j runoff.
and here's t
hen they wen
t along paral
roads are sti
them treat t
o gallon tank
eguy standi
the road, te
years
ey
D, I
the
g into
10 fAGf
3849
: 1
r 19 11 198
" II
II
tHe
. i .,
I i I .
I 'I I
w, Ith ...8 I. is I, very go. od.
as, ana~cep able pract
I :: I
I
eptlab (chuc
I
ccelpt
isl t
I
I
1
imalg i
~Xf1lct
, ~I d
tory ilfst I' uestion.
ki~' Idf I gr~ s, I ho~ y
as~ q 'e~ti~ is we've
ther ' in t. e field wh
ati..ltht.s i is 1111 happeni
we I ~n ,w I. . . I. 1 '
P1Mce !+r~lthe acade
I. . 1 '
, 1
do fe k~ow
I
1
,
. , i
'ow wh~t ight, e helpful
tel al ge tlemf here from
~at the.,.ir ;pfacf ces are. an
Ido apdd~lay' start, do
t. 'I ! !
! es .. i I Ii
I I.. !
1 I.'
tOI g t i my! oot into i
re....,lsti~.tr..i<D s that the
estedateas Really,
tnleo~~st Service.
tivleet of conditions
anp tet h*.e people 0
ne~ya~ at ial applic
I ,i
Fotles $ert ce does.
.1 · i'
e dloe.1
st ISe iVfce and?
laLd.1 iNow what r'm
atJ~n. tha~IYou see an
pl~lca ot,t~' t works fo
qU~!re elfltrs I I hen they,
liplgntbo~ elses req
perlsn ,Cf.idYjabout the
aSI~a I ~uot d to me,
tolki e ~' I
, I i
. ,I. i L h
lsejguy arry a ..
: i
I ,
IRe.neF fO~IR~, orestation
~rd , onc' the I 'peed of th
Ith r~al ate fu,midity goe
at~e ie*c e$.: 's 70 degre
11 e, Ken I re those n
I II
-I I
1,' r~G~ 1)
j I
I
Minutes
Same Man:
II s tha
I
i I'i
Unidenti~
cop out. I
Same Man;
carries .0
area becq.
if theyct
pretty da
Forest S~
what they
relate tcp
,
Same Man:
at a maxi
they shut!:
down, and
And I'm$
ments?
1
I
Th. s i Sl. La. [.... r
urn, I in othe
doWIil. Atlyt.m
anytime ~hel t
re, I and YOll c
, .
I
studies 0
the railroad
point, becaus
ceo
in) to
ut what ab ut the clam 0
t.
a train l.ke that going
happened. . I can imagin
I don'
railroa
know the par
u understand
ot all these
from the aca
g the way it
c community c
isn't out th
ere
oad.
t.
spray-
t this point, ~f you'd
Crown Zellerb c; , who
that they do ~ ve a
this and that. I Andy
first. The,
aerial applic
ere these re
he u.S. Fores
that an aeria
t at every si
tor they've g
aying is that
where else in
the Forest S
hey're going
irements beca
ole thing.
all I can d
Services. Th Y1 work
wind exceeds 51 mph
below 50% th Y1 shut
s, they shut d
t Forest Serv.d require-
850
Commissioner
1'1 I
Nbve~ber 19, 1,.:984
I' , I
ThFY're out'lrequiref
ove: TbeY're yo~r requit,ments.
,enni$Onl': My queslJion is ~ 0 shuts
i I !'
I I,
, an: I! Th ft
. II
ennl$on,: est
Minute.s, Wee
Page 56:
et.
Unidentified
Commissioner
Youkno , there's a ma
ng cych~m er, so he kno
the winQs doing. And
s are
DNR people t
s well as, y
ices asking
contract. T
And we try
something on
id it a coupl
land
f years
e if you
here
as
fic
get
stions
or. .
isoussion
our
k this db
question
e of pesit.
e data g~
o 'rAGE
I
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,I'
I
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i
NOVerber
II'
tnued) :. I, det
, e , th~t t
l~.un~~d~et
€ EPA or~ere
Ib, the d~te
td loselregi
~!~~;:~h::
nic ner~e d
ce, a study
hat was aft
rdered the
informa'ltion
~a:~;:l~~r~
I
I
rrtan: Wart m
~rown : ISure
an: Thle EP
Pre s, ~. m, ~',,'. . t i 0
reasQn to
th, or. ote
ed in!wl ich
,em Wit,h.L.. 2,4
I been 40I~le,
very &OP,' d w
t nee<jL to
t was I start
wheniit's
e pathology
~nimals shou
~estions abo
Idata av~ila
I', mous "., 011 ume
mountio\f r
dies thlbt
there's 1ind of I~ p
requir I a setiqJ r
ete~ ce .ain t~~ngs
matlon, f noti.~,hos
ormous ount aBout
e area s a p~~tic
e those. ,arcin6,~..,..e,. ne
h the p j:ture. 1 The
t of in brmatib ,. av
cases rre ba~id 0
fy a ch ~ical f .om
rly ide tified I On t
cts is tke a p~'an.
nting a Ian and re
ems in e enVirll'onm
ni ze, t FY didn ',t i
w,er~h~i ~~.~~d.a. t~..wi~~
ly laid own bt'lNEP
calsthselve~ .hav
ave som I additi n t
I '
+
I Yes.
I
I
i
om
e
thes
~isk
Qenc
tiest
said
Well
are
<j:anc
$tud
6f r
stud .
orde
hear
like
then
1
19, 19841
I
,
i i .. i
rmin~ng the $, fety of !ch
ere werel dat~lgaps, tqey
ral governme~ requir~s
volved in the use of an
che~ica~ co~ anies tq c
f th~s r~cout, e is Augus
trat~on ~th' y didn'4 c
sts eith~ at~, haven~t
ublic. A d t ose tests
mic~, on r~i roducti6n
magelstup , ~, tabolisrrt s
on pr, egn~ t ~I gs and a, d
r a ~ongl ~ra~ Ie in the
~~~~~a~i~~l~~t i~~ ~~s~~
the, dat. ga~ questiori.
questionf ab~1 t fish. .
to tackh I t~' t? '
I r Ii
I I !
for what ev~, ...... 0, .. 0.....
I i
I I
put' 2,4r t~ ough whqt .s, use to be
Againstl egi' tration jpr cess, hich m
eliewe th t t: e chemical was, h d pose
tially ppse ~:me threat 0 heal h, tha
there would b' some addi ional ata re irements.
D re~ativ t~i carcinogen. city t sts is,~ at the
he w~rk t atl . as orig~na ly don was n,ative,
rk. . Toolewl 'nimals, ia . ariety of pro llems
e done, W 'vf all agr~ed that i had tie
d an~ th~t w(t) k is fa~rl well long, I I on' t
goin~ to! e t! ported qec use it takes I I~ong
on tpe d~ n t ing. Bttt, they s ould P !Just about
d be abo}t of by now'l nd, ah thert lalot of
t some o~ th~ e requirem nt bec use ~.e is
le for 2b -Dlhan about ny oth r pes, qlde that
of ml.1tag~ est, data, a L T of r produc iion data,
roductioh dat' and I iea nIt of handr q nt
ve been tl ne! 'n birth 'de ects a d so 6.1 So,
adox' her~ be~iuse as you point ut the riegula-
pons,~ Ylo kpi w, if the ata ha ,nIt bb
ake Placiei iI' e problem s that most p, Ithe
speciificl es~i, .are, tlav . been 'one. I, , know
,4-D. ~o on~l that I "kno . who i comp~ .,te.nt
ar Cionce!r a~1 ut 2,4-D. Except that r Iwant
s studieis Icotyl, leted beca se the needl,1 hey
utag,eniciicly Pi 2,4-D, Ith refs a, incrF .'ble
lable. Isd,~, at's not r, ally a sweatl.11 Those
proc1edu!:1e 1 ?\I data gap p r se d es nO~1 i is-
e. The ip ob1L: m was that the daa gap~ 'ere not
documeI1jt , ~1 e document in. the . way i~ I in some
You :knoW1, th~i e' s alot;: 0 dlffeence b. ween
ly pi,r, ese!n in~l, some act;:io. And one o~1 !he
tal impalc i sF tements I is that t ey di~ 'I t
ntify a~l ofl I he things hat ne ded tb ,e ident-
real!J.y ~e e h: t directed toward the c~ ical
an i'nadeiq ad:l. approach t the p ocessl at sup-
(? ).1 NOlw i~! has, the 0 ly pIa e tha~1 ,he
been in IC urlt! is just I in Nova S otia ~ t year.
that. Jim? I
hat
for
f the
t,
wing
o rAt~ ,.: 10852
Vi)
Minu
Eage
Tom
a qu
effe
dill
afte
like
to c
incr
from
Dr.
a 0
peri
and
were
that
WeIr
that
reco
not
the
comm
didn
that
bone
real
afte
abso
may
inju
load
does
long
19, ;1984 I
me cbmbinJ a , ouple of q
n. At le~st i ix cases 0
repprted for: lowing con
he effect h~, e appea~ed
for years. ~. the qu~st
ing 12 sq are! inches df
ems ?:' And num' er two, Iwh
aft~r al ,th; 2,4-D was
I ,
II
Ii,
it's cIa sip! effect, in
ical: for roai cing a cer
at relate 'tpl the juncti
re is alo ofl lab worU: 0
tuat~ons ,ndll here are a
medieal l~tet: ture ov~r
peci'.fi, c c~s. e~I.. ~ think
know, so e ~, ltlple tha
atedl. Th y 11 e the p~rs
hree, year~. I' ot all hea
ofa'cas~ ihl which an i
ld sUffer]ngl . rom a numb
doctor w~s t: lling him.
he w~s te lip' him th~t
s tell~ingJhi~1 was tha~ h
com~lt s ict, e and wlith
ommai' and lheVi got him Icl
ect. In thFlcases ~he
od t,ime. Thf=i reason i,t
o he'al an . wtl; n you get
at piartic larl tissue, : if
~ do.s thi d~ age tha~ i
I, I I
mptoms be inb: easing tho gh1
i I
"
es, Wee ,of Novtbe
;;~, on \J~e ~ ~~.I Y,'.I'"S, i6
ts in hili;an hate' be
ted for Ise 2,~;,ID.
exposu and ~:ste
y doseceive~~ss
use the. nerve JPro
asing a " mosti~eve
the pat tr::S:,i-b i
a me; de, 1, I,' ch
ve lnllury
. ,s . Ati1~ t
not dll te-for+~se
have ap ~ared t~ th
aware 'f anot~~r 4
there's frobablJ, y
ded but ave be~n t
me at a ' to twd or
erve da ~ge. W~'kn
t suici f' 74 y~ars
t under and Wh9it h
he , had , he tb '.. :ugh
~~se:~~ t~dd:~Id.~~
he cam 'I out oIhis
utelY. n '1 resid, ~a. .,..,1 e
old up lfr a lo~~ pe
yis ve f very I S,', 1,1 ow
and it ~ts th0~e,
't alwa f' buti~hen
::~e :: r:::::f~h:o
;:t~~~~ ~~:~~~!~~~~i
before ~he, fo. '. th
very sl ~ly recver
ssioner I ennisbJ:
~~t ~ sd
doesn'
was usi
d got a
cion sh
Tom
Comm
ost: T
een rec
ring so
roblems
oggiest
very 0
ultitud
recorde
be big
Ie grou
't make
ically as
and ah~ i
coupl
it's rnax mum, s
I I
11 start
get :joint
lly" but
effect to
t t~at's
n diluted.
e F, 0 of them,
eYI : laimed to
v, e,~I' An dan"" 0 t
th I ground was
I : n't, I th.in
at~: materi4l,
, ,
,
, ,
I !
, ,
some' stud. esl, ith some 0
em slo I'mjsuFI it's thos
ssian stu_LieEi that are,
group of ~om~1 working i
ich iwouldlhajv1 been from
k aTIe num ro~s. One of
chemical wa~l, or how' it
oup of pe pl~i all eff~ct
ups ,expos d Pi eT the yea
of :peopl . t~ ~ s~ccumbs
ne, you c n iL' lagl1'~.e .qLn
~e~1h~~.ald ~ ver ~ee'it
w, there a
~!.'.,s~t~"t ~ts;
arde,n and
xposure.
e concent
estion
nerve
act of
their
on is
kin we
were
presum
s
Ithe
!hours
oms
linated
orrectly.
I . 1
materla
a
eled in
strong
to
about
'L.,3'53
10 ~t;t~ 6
stionsi aboutt Jh no~. , 0
viewii, f the i treraturei w
bly. : I I thinlt! ~orri:s tal
amoun~ that, ~' 'woulp r.ec
Wh, eni,',~..' he ~nt~: $"tingi, thin,'
ect 141 va In 1t'e cre~ks a
they I at Brei xtrem~ly s
field levels I QuId be ISO
v y dr~' tic ef~ dts op sal
ox.city,1 ut fro~ ~re~ctio
il s thet feed. i And, ~ha:t' s
bo t. Tn refs a~ ther poipt.
1 as~, ppb wqi]d giye ~i
an that ....1.. ind of I. e'.,vel ~. f I.CO'
it.o s, a. d so, ~ ese are que
ie and II think ~ at th~ fis
'n seen ny cleadatai that
84
Minu es,
Page 59:
Tom I
t at
coul
as a
of a
feed
larv
righ
agai
fry,
into
espe
show
for
poss
that
not
Dr.
I
Ii
of t
s that
d abo
mend
was t
that
scepti
e're
n smo
that'
the t
A Ca
ra1:;e
entra
tions
quest
hows
ence?
I
sbmethi nIt
I 'I
,
,
,
they! did
~ed chemica
Tom
Dr.
you
1,
,Tom
whole
terial
pwith
Tom
hat
?
, tudy
: s of
s for
sily
that
t you'Z
ures
l~ 385
i
Millfoil
that iri s
~re they t
they
were
course
Minu es, WeeklofN
Page 60: i
I
ost: TV+ you
me of th<t>se 1
tween 201 and
s in thelshal
ay: Thl que
the things
ss is welre 1
m approa~h.
got app!icat
we've g~t fa
w,a~er ,SYf terns,
st.ariesiand
i a ki*d of
en's but I tend
on of iI' S
at~on in t, he
e salt w ter
,
st}tary. i Whi~
rsl. So, I you
tol bringiit b
t For thf Can
'sla bigldata
I I '
D. ost: Ye~, th
$ome q~.sect
1 ~o stu~y th
aylwhereia ta
int:o the I
dnl' t go very
stl simply was
onL the, sedime
wpile a~d it
aCF becafse i
ayl: But I the
rei that tesea
e bicture tha
r as I c~n se
! i
ssiioner f'itts
Yel.
I
T aYI,:, o,n, e~o,f t
t r1 t stu ies,
r mahy tha sho
o t e ~uestipns,
g tt. ngL 95% of, the
Y u' e ruttin~ 4 t
Y u' e got 301 quar
m vi g ~n a c~oud,
s.gn.fiPant i~pact
, I
D. osb: I think
n t e first 2
N w, th~t canl proc
d po itl or impact;
g tt. ngl' I
T m . ay: . Thete' s
s u cpmlng ~own
I i
I i
D. osit: __ I 'r, we
I
ide 21 tape
Tom
one
addr
syst
we'v
here
what
the
whic
nutr
in f
tami
of t
the
C!:iit
t nd
e ce
t er
is an irtte
Itha~ none
: peo~le ar
~re we've
T
P
o
a
, ,
I dynami c, s
I ,
land:1 thi
I It'san
re not
k that
ther b
C
was 2,4-D
early
procee
re get
he les
I
hat t~e,
~, I
oversJIJ 11. I've
1:1.1
ses. Iii ,e
u gUY~1 re
o acr~ :nit.
That ~ ns
ha t, ~ ' lit's
coul~,1 e
I II I
i il I
I I' I
11 of I: at
s bey~ 200 feet.
ing va litthd
impa~' you're
I,
I;
i
i I I
e questionsih'bout t~i. ~ dr~ftbu
f;:e drift s~rdies at; I I would s
a. ;,0 .,;e V~,;~;i,~., ',~~%~O~~ ?,:: =~~~~
st,Uff on,th,e,targetl., ~,d y~u've
6. quarts per acre fL, o/ll irt this
~ . of stuff tpat' s nOI I accqunt;:ed
llke some Do ' reseat-, ~ers isugge
prt some, som farm P: i some o~ch
Ii! i
ki f'lllhave
less F' an 1% that
· distan' e, but you
e distk' ce ydu go
,I I'
I' i
, '
o..ther plac"e,..,I_:,.,where ~ ttdies I ~ve read s ow
o weeks la~Fr. So, f geti conf sed.
1, I
iness
y cont
tural
that y
ot a 1
unit.
for.
t, tha
rd ....
D
E
thll
FI
I I
I I
I
1
I
I
the
38 5
,
['9ad
:: I
I ' I
I
ii,
) a thou~ian~1 mil~. Th
:e they ta,., i,lk, ing a*, ' tk, t.
lS a nu~be farl,malle
old, and YOU~dO h',~"th
. hen the v(),la, co g<i>: ~ off you
j. , blows ac1:'OSS Te* ~ and that
It.buted. Th'e ~arbaf ~ stu~YWh
. hOrE;, I fprgelt hmfl ~any ile
y:comlng frpm tlhat fi> I 1j1thwe t a
y u have to:lbQlk atl ow mU9h w
q.. stributiofl' yolu' re 14lking ab
i ds of ar;tOU,',n" t?, we't,: ,talking
Q somethlng llke t~t.
,. i I
!; I
I I
Dr. Witt (?): t.mes we're victims!,~ ourJana
t was sure nice i he old days 1hen W :coulq se
million and couldn't see any more than! , ~at. I
Man: L. fe was simpller the' I wasn 'It i .
i '
,
.' I ! I
kind of ph'enolnmen~ ,you now
no zero ~n' llogryt $ic sale
ly degr d~ng lat s~ e rat ani
ow very we'll. Ithat l <1>u ne er
till so eth;L1g let iunti yo
to deci eif you ~ ~ spl.t i
e of my c l1Leagues $' $d, w en
y School, he' s~i l~ : ~ you've
syou hav a d~n eha, 1 and he
h.s side n~ a~l ofl ,ije me Ii
qard eac ~th~r ev~y tim th
per will tellgy u tl~t th Y w
.,n re 1 at. ve, .,1 y s orr tt" ime hey
t.i poses. (lau her) iAnd 't,
:ii's a se ibus, Ii su~ I, you on'
~ ationsh.p is IP raf' ~nt.
, I I I .
d say t at lEBO mr I?olnt
moving ~~i;1; 1ig ;;P;; .if
: ,
dim, t: :t".,tY,thl:l.~.
ast, I UeBs te ~
e q eSlt!idn h$
ies ip,di~a e t
g tan,','. e,1't em~
? !, : I
. : ' I,
~r,.,.:~, L~o t; il I.~a~: n~~
The~e re .' ly is no
be~n sk I g for evi
I!: I ! I
~m~e~ ~~X. wil pr
us1f '~ ti iI' 1 ~, w
r:'is sem.' ~tion. I
etin an1 ~e'll let
I :
I
Mi u es, Week of N
Page 61:
Tape 3 side ,1
Dr. cst: (contin
to as ~S how much
in pico-grams, whi
so far by a millio
global distributio
from a dust storm,
pesticides are dis
pesticides well of
pollen, was probab
storms. But again
look at the global
amounts. Not the
or first half mile
This qu
rl t or any oth
fo one thing ther
But, you're conti
philosophical, yo
fa you go, there
c Ie then you've
re embering what
cology in Veterin
so e point. He s
wo en lined up on
they move halfway
seconds, any phil
ca assure you th
fo all practical
about this becaus
t e dose response
Then I
things
Dost: Well a
ights ar
Jay:
It's
t
that
ding
e dust
ust
you
small
eet
er
,
We know
I
,
was
I
I
$t questi
$ butjahm
at 10 Ie
I
expos re
I
woulp. be th~, ,there' s
Dr. Ruth She411 ~ has
1 repeated e~dsures
dous~ng. nn ~ou
have to teli:1 ~ou
nse. .There} 10
idence. I'Vf' l~eard
nce and I do Il see
'see it ~ e
II I
I i I
'11 no:tify yo~ '
, i ,i
will be in t1hJ
ou knpw so yr.
:1
I II
! I!
1 I
en,
daytime
can
rot,
lio
HE
3856
I
Mi..nute~, Week
Page, 612:
MEETINp ADJOURNED