HomeMy WebLinkAbout09.26.2022 Public Hearing Auto Transcription09:00:56 the Jefferson County Zoom, hearing platform for a hearing that was
continued to today's date after several pre‐haring conferences and back and forth
communications this is a hearing for the purposes of considering a conditional use
09:01:12 permit application as part of which a an appeal occurred of the sepa
threshold.
09:01:19 Determination for this project which was issued earlier in the spring, and
then it was withdrawn and reissued.
09:01:26 After a little bit more information came in and so that's why we're having
the hearing on today's date of based on the time limit, or, I should say, timing
for everybody and coordinating the party's ability to be
09:01:39 here altogether. At the same time we all determined that today and
tomorrow are the best days for this to go forward, and people should be prepared,
and I want to put everybody on notice.
09:01:50 Everyone should be prepared for the entire hearing if at all possible to
conclude today.
09:01:55 That's very possible. If people move through their testimony quickly, it
could be done today that we did set tomorrow is the additional day for the hearing.
09:02:05 So the appeal hearing, or perhaps, or rebuttal or something like that
happens tomorrow.
09:02:08 That's fine. We did set for a third day as well, if we had to, but I do
not want people to rely on expectation that we're just going to go ahead, and have
3 days of hearing no that applies to all
09:02:20 parties of record. you all should very efficiently present your testimony,
your evidence for the record which you all know, that I have reviewed, the written
materials, written materials can speak for themselves.
09:02:32 If you all want to amplify different things, you will do so during your
respective presentations, and I defer to each of you how you choose to do that.
09:02:40 But I do not want anyone to feel that fillerbustering or a popularity
contest.
09:02:46 Raising hands, applauding yay bo yes no on one side of the other.
09:02:50 If you're a proponent an opponent or indifferent that won't change the
issue, the issues before me are whether a conditional use permit application that's
been submitted satisfies approval criteria, with conditions of
09:03:03 approval, and whether those are appropriate, and then on the sepa appeal,
whether the appellants can meet their burden approved to share that there are some
issues that were not properly addressed and somehow the threshold
09:03:14 determination was an error, and it needs to go back for either.
09:03:19 Another determination or a full environmental impact statement. So those
are the issues that are going to be before me for the record.
09:03:26 My name is Gary Mclean, and I'm sorry I serve as the hearing examiner for
Jefferson.
09:03:30 Count, as well as the number of the jurisdictions throughout the State.
09:03:33 My focus right now is Jefferson County. Here we are, and this is an
application numbered.
09:03:38 Mla, 2,021 0, 0, 0, 6, 6, and the cuv.
09:03:47 The conditional use permit application is consolidated with the sepa
appeal.
09:03:52 So we will have one hearing but we've already. agreed to the format that
we're going to go through with this process, in which case December comes forward
first.
09:04:00 Staff will do its presentation as to what the analysis was, and what its
recommendation might be, and the key issues explored, that any advocate will be
able to speak to that.
09:04:09 And if they have any agreement or differences with the staff report and
recommended conditions, they will let me know at that time, and then I will turn to
members of the public who wish to speak regarding the application itself.
09:04:21 I reserve the right to impose time limits, depending on how it looks like
we are with the number of people that are here.
09:04:29 If you are representative a representative of a group of people, and you
will have the same thing to say please let me know, and I can ask people to raise
their hand like Yes, they're speaking for me or something that sort, and i'll make
a
09:04:38 note of that don't feel the need to repeat your testimony.
09:04:43 If you agree with somebody, say that I agree with what Mr. Ms.
09:04:46 Smith said, and i'm here on their neighbor and I fully support that.
09:04:50 And I have one additional thing to add go ahead and do that that's just
fine, and everybody that will be speaking and offering testimony today that you
want me to accept is the truth.
09:05:00 I will be putting you under a there is an official record being made of
today's hearing.
09:05:05 It is the digital audio recording. So wanna let everybody know that as a
courtesy to everyone, and it looks like most people know the Zoom Protocol pretty
good here online, hearing protocols hit the mute Button on your
09:05:17 device, unless you're recognized to speak and i'll ask that everybody else
do that when you're talking to so you don't get interruptions.
09:05:24 Dogs barking male couriers, knocking at your door and things of that sort.
09:05:28 We don't need that kind of background sound the other thing i'll say
technically, is if you're not recognized to speak, or a party representative.
09:05:34 It's probably a good idea for you to have your video turned off as well
until you're recognized to speak or you want to seek recognition.
09:05:42 That helps the wi‐fi stability to be better for everybody.
09:05:45 I don't know why, but for some reason it's shown that it does make it more
stable for people that are on screen.
09:05:52 So so those are a few technical issues. I wanted to address.
09:05:57 I reserve the right call for breaks when it's a logical breaking point for
us to step away and let everybody go get cups of coffee or anything.
09:06:06 But online it tends to be a little bit easier for most of you.
09:06:08 So turn on your mute turn off your video. step away, go fill your cup of
coffee, or take care of your personal businesses.
09:06:15 You need to, and we'll keep the hearing going in efficient matter as best
as possible.
09:06:21 So those are a few of the preliminaries I wanted to cover today.
09:06:24 So I will ask the party representatives out of the gate to represent
themselves, to let everybody know the party representatives, whoever you are.
09:06:34 When you identify yourself we have staff, we have the applicant, and we
have a sepa appellate involved in this.
09:06:42 Comprehend this consolidated hearing process. So who is here to be the
primary staff representative today?
09:06:52 Barbara Erlick Ben, Deputy prosecutor for Jefferson County.
09:06:54 Good morning. Good morning! and is the county prepared to move forward?
09:06:58 We are your owner. Good! thank you, alright, and will be your primary
speaking part.
09:07:07 Amanda Hunt is the assistant planner who worked primarily on the project,
so she will be doing the staff presentation this morning.
09:07:17 Okay, Thank you very much, Alright, And to the Africa team who will be
taking the lead as the representative.
09:07:23 And if you want to introduce yourself hello, Mr. Examiner, I am Courtney
Kaylor, representing the applicant, and here today as well, is Anne Burkhart, the
applicant who will be providing a presentation
09:07:37 today. Okay, Thank you very much. and if at any time you all noticed that
my Wi‐fi, or something gets unstable, kindly wave your hand, or something like
that, or let me know of occasionally, I will hit mute on mine
09:07:54 because my Amazon devices Oh, I said the word might tell me there's a
mailman up in the front yard, or something like that, and I try not to hear it have
the interruption.
09:08:04 So go like this. if you Can't hear me something like that so these things
do happen as experience, and to the sepa appellants.
09:08:12 I believe Mr. Sidel's I see you on screen Good morning.
09:08:15 Good morning, Mr. Examiner. I am Alexander's from the law from Brooklyn
and Newman.
09:08:20 I represent the Ciba Appellants Oak Bay concerned citizens alright, and
before I jump right in I will note that I did receive updated proposed witness
lists that I believe you all exchange with one another I will
09:08:35 note that I don't think I have ending procedural motions in front of me at
this time.
09:08:42 So does anyone any of the 3 Council record here to any of you?
09:08:47 All have any procedural issues to bring to my attention.
09:08:49 Before we begin the testimony in the full hearing process.
09:08:53 Is there only one? Yes, I just have one thing. My legal assistant is
working on a updated exhibit list to reflect.
09:09:04 The submitals that came in Friday night. So Thank you very much. .
09:09:09 Appreciate that that will make it very help and Mr. Siddles. I saw you
raise your hand on the screen. Yes, sir, at least one of my clients intends to
offer public testimony.
09:09:17 But they're traveling today if this hearing does go into the second day,
and I agree with you.
09:09:22 If it doesn't have to then it won't but if it does.
09:09:25 I wonder if we could have kind of a makeup day for the for a small number
of of members of the public who weren't able to testify today?
09:09:33 We'll address that if we need to but I just wanted everybody aware that
sometimes a trial and hearing goes a lot faster than people think before they get
there.
09:09:41 So I accept that You're. prepared. but if we have to go forward tomorrow,
because we have somebody who's in transit somehow stuck in an airport in Denver.
09:09:50 Got those where we'll accommodate that as we need to. but thank you for
bringing up that possibility.
09:09:55 I understand that I just I appreciate that you're ready to move forward
today issues i'm not sure if this is a procedural issue, or something that we would
bring up in our hearing presentation.
09:10:10 But I did just want to identify that, as I said in my email it.
09:10:16 We will be doing very short applicants presentation today. But we're not
intending, as part of the conditional use, permit hearing to address any issues
that are also issues in the sepa appeal.
09:10:29 Hearing. We wanted to have our witnesses just get up once instead of
twice, and hopefully not duplicate their testimony.
09:10:36 But I do want to be sure that, our experts testimony, and of course this
would go for all party sex for testimony, and the sepa appeal.
09:10:46 Hearing would be part of the conditional use. Permit record
09:10:50 And then I also just wanted to clarify whether Mr.
09:10:55 Examiner you're intending on admitting all of the county exhibits upfront,
or whether you would like the parties to request admission individually of those
documents kind of our own documents We
09:11:12 take those in order, and if I mess up, come back with something you may
mention first of all, out of the gate.
09:11:20 At the very first pre hearing conference. All of you heard me say that my
strong preference is that we always have one witness called one time to get all of
their testimony wrapped up, and here we have a
09:11:31 Consolidated record. A consolidated hearing process as State law now
requires one open writer hearing one seep appeal.
09:11:39 We're doing it all together here, and understanding that the applicant has
let everyone know that they have some that experts that are part of supporting
their conditional use.
09:11:49 Permit application of and i'm gonna have to ask ms hunt. Please don't nod
your head shake your head or anything.
09:11:56 Please remain placid, and that goes to everyone. Sorry you were the first
one I saw.
09:12:00 So avoid facial expressions that are you know in unless you're part of the
record here.
09:12:06 So, anyway, of the issue of the record of the experts that the applicant
may want to call.
09:12:13 I understand that you want to reserve them for perhaps testimony during
the Cpa appeal, and that is acceptable.
09:12:18 You did transmitted email of explaining the your understanding of how the
process would work.
09:12:24 And I did send you all the response that was transmitted to the parties of
record that that's an acceptable proposal of it is a more efficient way to do
things instead of calling people several times so on
09:12:37 the record itself. different jurisdictions call it different things.
09:12:42 There is a staff report with to which there are a number of attached
exhibits.
09:12:47 Maybe it's 53 or it's some number larger today. and if Staff identifies to
me, the staff report includes exhibits one through 69 as as identified online, or
something and publicly, available that is my
09:13:01 first preference that we accept them all into the record.
09:13:04 At one time. it's just too cumbersome to go through one at a time.
09:13:09 Here's true correct copy of x y and z it's already up like, Take it, it
would be miserable.
09:13:14 But in this hunt during Miss Hutch testimony, Probably that would
09:13:19 That would probably do that, and I'm fine with it noting that, Mr.
09:13:25 Sidel's and any of the appellates or any people that are here who are
members of the public who want to try and argue that exhibit 12 was just garbage.
09:13:32 We don't like it. I picked it that Number out of random. I have no idea
what that is right now, not looking at the list.
09:13:39 But you all have the right challenged exhibit and whether it's a thorough,
and whether it's well done, or whether it's wrong.
09:13:46 But you need to make sure if you're trying to do that. Tell me why.
09:13:49 Tell me why and the how come and tell me Why, you believe that you're
smarter than that person Is it? Because you live next door?
09:13:55 Is it because you're a rocket scientist and you know about rocket fuel?
09:13:59 And this is an issue involving rocket fuel. Well, those are the kind of
things you need to let me know.
09:14:03 If you're telling me that I should believe you have more credibility than
somebody else who wrote a big report, you're all capable of doing that.
09:14:10 But my strong preference is that the exhibits that are part of the staff
report or form the basis for the staff report to be issued, or the threshold
determination to come about that those be accepted as part of the
09:14:21 record without having to go through the one by one. Did that answer your
questions? Ms.
09:14:25 Kaylor. it did Okay. and Mr. Silas, you raised your hand raise the
question in my mind.
09:14:34 How should we handle my appellant exhibits i've got 3 expert reports noise
traffic, wetlands.
09:14:40 And then I had a couple of Google Earth screenshots.
09:14:43 Can can we pre admit those as well, or how should we handle that?
09:14:47 But let me ask council. would there be any objection to those?
09:14:50 Be it being admitted, obviously you all can challenge them and whether
they're thorough enough, and you can tell me what kind of concerns you have with
it.
09:14:59 But for purposes of identification, and including it in the record.
09:15:03 Does Council for the county, or the applicant have any objection?
09:15:09 For the applicant. assuming that Mr. Cytles will have a witness to testify
to.
09:15:14 Yeah, the expert reports we we would not object of course if there's no
expert witness to go with a report.
09:15:20 Then then we would object, and likewise we would ask that the applicant
exhibits be admitted as a group as well.
09:15:30 If we're admitting all the other exhibits as part of the secret appeal.
right? that's correct, alright, is there like when you have anything to happen?
09:15:38 County has no objection to the appellant exhibits for the applicants
exhibits.
09:15:44 We think they should all come in and I can cur so understanding that you
all have shared your exhibit list and tell me if i'm wrong and you've shared copies
of your expert reports that you hope to
09:16:00 introduce, and things of that sort before today, I will hereby admit all
of those as numbered and as identified and and shared with the other parties into
the record.
09:16:12 And there are many hope the amended. list I know you've got the county
list, but if we could have just you know we've got staff report and exhibits we've
got applicant exhibits.
09:16:24 We've got appellant. exhibits if you all could do your best to confer with
the other parties and make sure that when we're all done I have an accurate list of
What those are please okay, But I will
09:16:35 admit them, and you all can challenge them until the date until the day
ends.
09:16:40 Based on what you think the problems are with any of them.
09:16:43 But thank you all for having shared the beforehand.
09:16:45 That does make for a much more efficient hearing process to introduce
them, or i'm sorry to admit them all right now, so you can all discuss them.
09:16:53 Okay, that a dread that covers all our procedural issues.
09:16:57 All right. So now is it time for us to move forward.
09:17:01 But the beginning of the hearing, and as I said, we will move to the to
let you all know who remembers the public who haven't done this before county codes
and rules require that staff involved in reviewing an application like this
09:17:14 conditional use. permit application proven to your class, and other types
of applications.
09:17:19 They have to review it. They have to generate what's called a staff
report.
09:17:23 They have to issue it before a hearing date. and eyes to hearing examiner
receive copies of those materials, so I can review it, and it includes the Staff's
recommendation, whether it's approved disapprove or approved
09:17:35 with conditions, and I did receive one in the spring when the hearing
first open.
09:17:42 We continued it till today, and there's an addendum or a supplement to the
staff report.
09:17:45 I think that's number exhibit 53 Miss Hunt can cover that.
09:17:48 I've got all those and number viewed them and that's what i'm gonna ask
staff to now introduce the matter and summarize the staff report, and I do note
that I saw a slide presentation which I think was
09:18:00 from long ago that's on the record so if you have an amendment to a slide
presentation that needs to be part of the record.
09:18:06 If it had tell me what number that is so it's easier to find, and
09:18:12 So that's. the part of the hearing we're in now to members of the public.
09:18:16 Please don't interrupt people on their tests fine and to the party
representatives.
09:18:18 I hope you all know that you'll be recognized when It's time for you to
speak one at a time, and
09:18:25 So now is an opportunity for the county staff to summarize the staff
report.
09:18:28 So, Missouri Litman I think you've indicated Miss Hutton would be your
presenter unless you want it to be the opening statement I'll turn to you But then
you tell us which way you want to
09:18:39 go and good morning, Ms. Hunt. How are you today? Good morning, your
honor.
09:18:46 I am doing well, thank you. Do You swear or a firm That testimony you're
about to give today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing about the
truth.
09:19:00 I do, and the sun. How long do you think you need for your presentation?
09:19:04 About 30 min. Can I ask you to make it shorter than 30 min?
09:19:10 15 to 20, is usually sufficient. Do your best, because we have a lot of
people online, alright.
09:19:19 So I will be co‐presenting with Helena.
09:19:22 She, they will be helping me with slide transition. So I will be speaking
to Helena during my presentation, and I'm gonna hit mute online.
09:19:33 So if I suddenly show up and i'm talking yeah But and Amanda, are you able
to see the presentation?
09:19:41 I am, Thank you, Go ahead and bring press slide show When you're ready.
09:20:01 All right, Let me know when you are ready for me to switch slides.
09:20:06 Okay, So to make this text just a little bit bigger, I think everyone can
see it just fine.
09:20:10 But just for the sake of the presentation, do you want to hit slideshow at
the top of the toolbar
09:20:20 On the right next to animation. Yes, I I already have.
09:20:24 Hold on! Let me stop my screen share, and we started
09:20:33 There you go. that's perfect. Okay, just let me make sure i've everything
situated on my end here
09:20:44 Okay, so are like to thank you all again for attending the panel with
public hearing.
09:20:49 Jefferson County Department of Community Development, will begin the
hearing by providing a short introduction to Dc. Staff.
09:20:55 The general description of the project, a summary of project of View and
Sepa process, and the staff recommendation of approval.
09:21:01 Next, slide, please.
09:21:09 So I will begin by introducing myself my name is Amanda Hunt.
09:21:12 I'm. an assistant planner of Jefferson county and I'm. also believed
Project planner for the Panama Woods project, and as the assigned planner, my tasks
were to facilitate the review of application
09:21:22 materials. The public notice Digital and information requests
Communication of applicable parties drafting the Staff Report draft in the
Jefferson County Recommendation of approval and the Cpa termination recommendation
to a responsible
09:21:37 Cpa official next slide, please. so a little bit about my background.
09:21:43 I've been an assistant planner with Jefferson County for about 2 years.
09:21:46 Now start off as a clerk hire and moved my way up.
09:21:48 But previously I was a staff, one planner for a environmental consulting
firm, and my educational background is an environmental studies focusing on
physical geography and environmental policy.
09:22:01 And this is not my first conditional use project. I have reviewed a
utility and shoreline project for the county before, and industrial Mining
conditional use Project.
09:22:10 Next slide, please the applicant, and Burke heart is applying for a type.
09:22:16 3 conditional use permit for a small scale tourism and recreational use
for Treat center located along Oak Bay Road and Port Hadlock, Washington, through
trade, center would accommodate guest reservations for group activities such as
09:22:28 Yoga retreats, business group retreats, and corporate or not for profit
just sees me strategic planning.
09:22:34 The facility will be rented out as a whole, not for individual room,
Rental large‐scale events, such as weddings are not proposed in conjunction of the
Retreat center.
09:22:44 There are also no proposed water based activities related to this
proposal.
09:22:48 Only commercial, recreational and tourist uses. The retreat center holds
12,000 square feet of gross floor area over 2 stories, and the overall footprint of
the retreat center is broken down into that 6,000 square feet
09:23:00 per per floor, plus the 1,155 square feet on the outside.
09:23:04 For external stairs and hand rolls. 3 treat center proposes 24 rooms.
09:23:10 The commercial kitchen, and would accommodate a maximum of 35 guests and 7
employees on site.
09:23:16 Next slide, please. The proposal also includes the following amenities: 1
710 square foot caretaker residents for the onsite manager, one parking area, one
main parking lot and on site
09:23:31 septic system to serve up to 3,487 point, 5 gallons of commercial sewage
per day and access row that enters through an approved county road.
09:23:40 Approach a commercial sign that is located. nor or excuse me, that will be
located north of the driveway, entrance and face parallel to obey road.
09:23:49 The proposed total new, impervious surface, for the site is 60,621 square
feet.
09:23:56 This number includes all roadways, parking areas, and building footprints.
09:24:00 In addition, there will be a salon area to Rain gardens.
09:24:04 No trespassing signs, and a 50 foot landscaping buffer, composed of dense
tree stands, which will be maintained in the interior of all property.
09:24:12 Lines next slide, please. So the subject property consists of 2 parcels.
09:24:19 One is zoned rule residential 5, which is this yellow color on the screen.
09:24:23 The other is zoned 1 20, which is this grayish color on the screen.
09:24:28 Together they come to 21 point, 5 4 acres. The surrounding parcels are
also zoned, real, residential, 5 and 20, with the addition of commercial forest,
180 to the north, which is that blue area and rule
09:24:40 Forrest, 140 to the southwest, which is that green color on the screen. A
250 foot commercial step back will be maintained between the proposed buildings in
the forest land surrounding the property properties to the
09:24:52 northeast and south of the site are occupied by single family rule.
09:24:57 Residential properties on multi‐acre perceals adjacent residential
development starts at about 90 feet from the subject.
09:25:03 Property lines and all of the existing development. On each side of Oak
Bay Road is located at least 600 feet away from the proposed retreat center, and,
as mentioned before, the lot lines will employ a 50 foot landscaping buffer
09:25:15 to screen the proposed buildings from neighboring properties in their
existing development.
09:25:21 Next, slide, please.
09:25:29 This plan originally was improved in March, 2022.
09:25:32 It has since been revised to incorporate new additional findings submitted
the summer by the applicants.
09:25:38 Professional wetland biologist. Next slide, please.
09:25:44 And here is the most recent version of the site plan. As you can see, the
location of the caretaker residence. parking lot and road approach have been
revised again.
09:25:56 These revisions were made to avoid impacts. The on‐site, delineate
wetlands and streams, as described in the critical areas.
09:26:01 Report. the buildings will remain on the flat western portion of this
property.
09:26:08 Next, slide, please.
09:26:12 And here is the original site plan submitted in June of 2021.
09:26:19 As you can see, the applicant has moved the proposed driveway and retreat
center further away from the adjacent property lines in order to minimize potential
impacts to the surrounding uses of the area.
09:26:29 Next, slide, please.
09:26:34 So this image is the impacts and mitigation maps provided in the 2022
critical areas report.
09:26:41 This was submitted 2 times this summer in July and August, and our final
copy was received in August, as shown on the image.
09:26:47 There are 2 streams and 4 wetlands located on or adjacent to the subject
property.
09:26:53 This map or sees me. The site is also mapped as a geological, hazardous
area and coastal saltwater intrusion, protection zone.
09:27:00 No reports were required for their protection zone. but for the geological
positives area.
09:27:05 The applicant submitted a 2021 geological Hazard assessment prepared by
Stratum group, and this report concluded that the properties were not at risk from
landslides, or erosion.
09:27:17 Other general features of this property is that it's heavily forested with
valley like features that slope downward to the east.
09:27:22 The property is also located within 2 miles from Huge Sound Oak Bay road,
which runs north and south.
09:27:29 On the east side of the property is located approximately 900 feet from
Puget Sound, and the proposed retreat center is located approximately a 1,000 feet
from Oak Bay road so together the retreat center will be
09:27:38 set back significantly from the nearest roadway and largest body of water
in the area.
09:27:44 Alright next slide, please. Okay. So next i'm just gonna quickly summarize
the Permit process that has been conducted through 2021 and 22 on may fourth in
2,021 the applicant
09:27:58 attended a pre‐application conference at Jefferson County.
09:28:02 At the conference, it was determined that a type 3 conditional use permit
would be required with decision by the Jefferson County.
09:28:07 Here in Examiner. on June 20 third, 2021, Jefferson County received the
application on August twelfth Dc. staff conducted a site visit to look for streams
or wetlands, and also just to Get our
09:28:20 eyes on the property. September the first. the application was deemed
substantially complete.
09:28:26 On September fifteenth we issued the notice of application, which included
a comment period for the public, which was which lasted 15 calendar days.
09:28:35 During this period we received 29 written public comments in 2 comments
from State agencies.
09:28:41 On March the second DCD. staff issued a Cpa.
09:28:43 Determination of non‐significance, a recommendation of approval for the
conditional use and issue the notice of public hearing.
09:28:52 On March sixteenth, 2022, we received an appeal for for a secret
determination, not significance; and on March the seventeenth a public hearing,
like I said, pre hearing, was open to allow for public testimony into announce
09:29:04 the hearing would be later postponed. Next slide, please.
09:29:13 In May, 2022, the hearing was again reschedule, due to new additional
information received regarding Wetlands and streams.
09:29:21 In June, through July of 2,022 DCD.
09:29:23 Staff conducted site visits as well as receive additional information from
the applicants, such as revised site plans, and that critical areas report.
09:29:32 In August, 2022 we received, and more additional information, such as the
Revised Stormwater Site Plan.
09:29:37 The final critical areas Report and Upland Restoration Memorandum on
August 30 first DCD.
09:29:43 Staff, withdrew the original March second secret determination and
non‐significance, and issued a new determination of non‐significance to include
consideration and careful review of all the additional information received over
the summer on
09:29:56 September fourteenth, an appeal of the Cpa.
09:29:59 Determination. monthly significance was submitted to Jefferson County, And
now, on September the 20 sixth, we are all attending this hearing.
09:30:07 Next, slide, please.
09:30:12 Alright. So now i'm gonna talk about the steeper process.
09:30:15 So Jefferson County, DCD. is the lead agency for Cbo Review.
09:30:19 We issue 2 determinations of non‐significance, one on March, the second,
and one on August.
09:30:27 The 30 first, and determination of significance means according to the
whack, and for those of you who don't know the whack is, it's the Washington
administrative code.
09:30:33 It means the written decision by the responsible official of the lead
agency that a proposal is not likely to have a significant adverse environmental
impact. and therefore an environmental impact statement is not required significant
as used in sepa means.
09:30:48 A reasonable likelihood of more than a moderate adverse impact on
environmental quality.
09:30:53 So our determination of nonsense was made after review of completed sepa
checklist.
09:30:59 All application materials, and an inspection of the site.
09:31:03 The applicant has addressed these elements in the Cpa environmental
checklist by describing the proposed impacts to each element.
09:31:10 Some of these elements include, you know, earth, water, air, recreation,
and transportation, and through the review of each element they provided best
management practices to mitigate or reduce those impacts to a non‐significant
standard those
09:31:23 best manager. practices are described in the DCD.
09:31:26 Staff reports next slide, please.
09:31:32 So, as mentioned before in May of this year, New Wetland, or findings were
submitted to the project record.
09:31:37 The public hearing was therefore postponed until the applicant could
submit a full delineation to the county.
09:31:44 Over the summer applicant worked with a buttland Lc.
09:31:47 To prepare that full critical areas. Report and upland Restoration
memorandum to address all on site streams and wetlands and any required mitigation.
09:31:57 Applicant also submitted those revised application materials to reflect
the determinations made in those reports.
09:32:02 After careful review and consideration of the new information, and finding
that this middle satisfy the local and state requirements of Wetlands, and
specifically, and the Jefferson County critical areas ordinance, Jefferson County,
DCD with Jew
09:32:15 that dent mark second Dns and issued a new sepa Dns.
09:32:19 And overall. jeffrey's the county has determined that the described
proposal conducted in conformance with applicable Jefferson county codes and
ordinances would not have a probable significant adverse impact on
09:32:31 the environment. an additional mitigation or an environmental impact
statement is not required.
09:32:36 Next slide, please. In addition, Jefferson County, DCD.
09:32:43 Conducted Sepa review process for both determinations and conformance of
Whack, 197, 1,258, which is Cpa Gma Project.
09:32:54 Review, rely on on existing plans, laws, and right regulations.
09:32:58 So under W, 197, 1,258.
09:33:01 The Growth Management Act County, which is Jefferson County, may provide
adequate analysis of and mitigation, for. some are all of the specific adverse
environmental impacts of the project, and will determine whether the impacts have
been adequately
09:33:13 addressed in the comprehensive plan, applicable development regulations,
or other local state or federal roles at laws.
09:33:21 For example, the applicant avoided impacts by establishing permit setbacks
between all proposed ground disturbance areas and the on site streams and wetlands.
09:33:30 Jefferson County, DCD. has determined that impacts have been adequately
addressed by designating some of the standard long and short‐term impacts
associated with the proposed use as acceptable due to the standard levels
09:33:42 of service, land use designations and development standards required by
the Jefferson County Code.
09:33:48 Jefferson County has also conditioned the approval of this project on
compliance of the requirements or mitigation measures within the comprehensive plan
and applicable development regulations, and it should be noted that nothing in
09:33:59 this wax section requires the review of the adequacy of the environmental
analysis associated with the comprehensive plans and development regulations that
are being relied upon to make that determination.
09:34:13 Okay, Next, slide, please.
09:34:19 In addition to Seepa determination, the proposal was also reviewed against
conditional use.
09:34:25 Criteria described under Jccc. 1,845 30.
09:34:29 That is required for all type. 3 conditional use permit applications.
09:34:33 There are 12 conditional use, criterion, total. These criteria are
designed to ensure that there is no substantial detrimental effect from the project
to adjacent properties.
09:34:43 Service or the public in general, and just due to saving time I don't
think I will read through all of them just to keep the presentation short.
09:34:52 Your honor, Do you want me to read through them, or do?
09:34:55 Is it all right if I just move past reading through these?
09:34:59 No, this is the type of thing that I do not think you need to spend
hearing time on, because I can read the code perfect.
09:35:05 Okay, I will move on. So, Helena, can you please move to slides?
09:35:12 Perfect right here.
09:35:18 And one moment that I'm gonna read configurate my presentation.
09:35:24 Okay, So DCD Staff recommends approval. the type 3 conditional use permit
for the small scale Tourist and recreational Retreat Center, subject to 43
conditions of approval so as described in the staff report.
09:35:35 The recommendation of approval is determined after careful review of the
following elements: One would be the comprehensive plan, and for those of you,
Aren't, familiar with the Jefferson County comprehensive plan it's a legal document
09:35:46 that serves as a decision‐making guide for both officials and citizens.
09:35:51 More specifically DCD. Staff reviewed goals and policies related to
preserving rural character.
09:35:57 Enhancement of a rural economy, environmental protection and fostering
economic development that relies on a rural location and setting.
09:36:04 So the Conference of Plan encourages commercial and recreational
development in rural residential zoning districts.
09:36:11 As long as they are compatible with sustaining a clean environment, and
will not conflict with other allowed urgent uses.
09:36:16 For example, in a staff report, I talk about framework goal, one
preserving rule character, and that reads as conserving Jefferson County's
Functioning Role Way of life, Agricultural and forest Working lands Shoreline
09:36:30 and mountain vistas and natural ecosystems, not just to be preserved.
09:36:34 Supervised scenery, but to be preserved as a living, working, and
sustaining role.
09:36:38 Landscape with which the community has a living, such working
relationship.
09:36:42 The plan is there for staying that will. Character is not exclusively
defined as residential use in development, but also allows the public to use the
rule.
09:36:51 Residential area as a working landscape for employment opportunities.
09:36:55 Secondly, this project was reviewed under development. and performance
standards, and the Jefferson County Code, That's chapter 1,830 and 1,820.
09:37:04 Jefferson can also determine that the proposal, the proposal satisfies all
conditional use.
09:37:10 Criteria as described on the previous slides. This determination was made
by reviewing best manager practices proposed with the project that would manage
commonly created commercial business that would manage impacts commonly created by
commercial development such
09:37:24 as noise, traffic, and visual impacts. Some of these include that 50 foot
landscaping, buffer, limiting hours of noise to standards described in the
Jefferson County code, shielding or recessing
09:37:36 outdoor safety lights, and there's quite a few others, but I won't mention
them all during the presentation for the sake of time, and these bmps have also
been acknowledged in the conditions of
09:37:47 approval, so that the conditional use will not be material, detrimental to
uses or surrounding problems.
09:37:52 Properties. Secondly, so this proposal has also been reviewed by multiple
county departments, such as the Department, Environmental Health and Department of
Public Works, and they have given their approval for the project based on the
condition that it will
09:38:12 be, the initial use will be available for portable water, provided that
there is an appropriate approved install water main extension to the Quimper water
system, and Jefferson County Public works had determined that based on minor
increase in
09:38:26 traffic below accident rate history along Oak Bay Road that the proposal
is not likely to result in significant adverse impacts.
09:38:35 The Fire District determined that the proposal conforms to the attempt of
the International Fire Code and road access standards with regard to emergency
service access and the public utility district again has confirmed that the Quimper
water system has
09:38:46 compassion for the proposal. Alright, next slide, please. Okay.
09:38:54 So I wanted to make an additional slide on this topic, because this is one
of the main concerns from the public.
09:39:00 Was there relationship between the comprehensive plan zoning and the
location of the project?
09:39:06 So i'm just gonna go over that and again. just to emphasize what rule
residential zoning means.
09:39:12 So this project is located in that R. 120 are R.
09:39:15 1 5, as mentioned before, and according to the categories of land use
table 3, one allowable and prohibited uses.
09:39:22 Recreational, cultural or religious conference. Retreat, Slash.
09:39:26 Excuse me, Religious conference, center retreat facilities, rac use, which
means that the use is allowed with an approved conditional use.
09:39:34 Permit. So, therefore, the the real residential zoning does allow retreat
centers as long as they receive a conditional use.
09:39:43 Permit and meet the conditional use. Permit criteria according to the
performance standards of a small scale.
09:39:49 Recreation and tourist use. Retreat centers require a minimum of 10 acres
to support all required amenities, utilities, and impacts of the proposal.
09:39:57 The applicant is utilizing a 20 acre property to meet this minimum
requirement, and will incentivize the additional acreage for recreational
opportunities and to mediate impacts of the proposal to surrounding
09:40:10 uses. So the Rcw. has a really great definition of rule elements, and i'll
read that to you right now.
09:40:17 A county should foster landings, patterns, and develop a local vision of
rural character that will help preserve world‐based economies and traditional role.
09:40:25 Lifestyles encourage the economic prosperity of rural residents.
09:40:29 Foster opportunities for small scale rule based employment and
self‐employment.
09:40:39 Respect, Miss Hunt. You don't need to read that I can read it.
09:40:40 You're at 20 min at 20 min. Okay, I will finish it. Okay, So this project
meets this definition by providing employment opportunities through an allowed use
in the rural residential zoning district proposing those best managed practices to
not conflict with allowed uses
09:40:52 using the rule, setting a port headlock to incorporate the natural forest
features of the site to host.
09:40:58 Small scale groups and design the proposal to not create a direct,
permanent impact on site, stream or wetlands.
09:41:07 Okay. So since we're at 20 min, can you do next slide, please, Helena.
09:41:14 Okay, So i'll just quickly talk about this and then move on to my last
slide, which is the next one.
09:41:20 So the site has been reviewed for analysis of critical areas to reports
have been submitted to the county to discuss this analysis.
09:41:29 There was, it was found that no landslide or erosion has is present on the
property.
09:41:33 The biologist has identified 2 Wetlands and Fourth Street.
09:41:38 Excuse me streams and for wetlands on the property, and has determined
that no direct permanent impact would be but a curve due to the project, and as
well as to the findings of those reports there is mitigation included in
09:41:52 the project to address previous disturbance to a Wetland buffer, and to
restore all used areas or unused areas of the road.
09:42:01 Approach alright. Next slide Helena please okay so here's my last slide
alright, So, as mentioned before, the applicant has done multiple steps to modify
the proposal to pull public concerns and meet the conditional use
09:42:20 criteria. they've moved their development further back from property lines
to decrease the impact to those adjacent neighbors.
09:42:27 They've employed a 50 foot landscaping buffer, which is 35 feet larger
than the required landscaping required for small scale, recreational and tourist
development.
09:42:35 They revise the secret checklist to include additional bmps that are not
specifically required by the code, but just for things to help lessen that impact
just routing uses.
09:42:46 And they've also modified their proposal directly for example, they were
originally proposing a well and due to public concern over the impact of the
aquifer that you've decided to pursue a public water
09:42:59 connection which the Public utility district has approved and can
inconsiderate.
09:43:06 Of all these things at the Jefferson County Comprehensive plan.
09:43:08 The Jefferson County Code, and the determination, not significance, Zoning
requirements and definitions, and the proposed best management practices.
09:43:14 Jefferson County, DCD. recommended, recommends an approval for the
conditional user.
09:43:20 Next slide, please. Alright, and on behalf of Jefferson County, DCD.
09:43:26 I thank you all again for attending the hearing. and this concludes my
presentation.
09:43:33 Okay, thank you, Miss Hunt. And just for the record. because you all
identify exhibits differently than some other jurisdictions.
09:43:40 I just want to make sure that I have it right. These staff report that you
would like me to review and consider.
09:43:47 That is, part of the record was initially was it initially marked?
09:43:51 Either exhibit or or exhibit 19 and Then there is a supplement, I guess,
an addendum and that's included in the record is exhibit.
09:44:02 53. Is that correct? Let me reconfirm that those are the correct numbers.
09:44:11 I am opening up the exhibit list as we
09:44:35 100 records here, which exhibit is it it's the staff report for goodness
sake, you're required by a lot of produce.
09:44:38 It, I understand. Yes, we will continue with that procedure in the future.
09:44:50 Okay, So the original staff report was exhibit 19, and it was known as
exhibit power.
09:44:59 Got it, and then the amended staff report as issued on August thirty‐first
is known as let's see back to my other list.
09:45:11 Look at 53, and there it is. Staff report ad done.
09:45:18 Yep, so exhibit 53
09:45:24 That's what it's called okay this hunt does that conclude the staff
presentation for now it does reserving the right for staff.
09:45:34 And I will do the same for the Abca team to respond to any public comments
if you choose.
09:45:40 But thank you very much. Miss Hutton. Is there anything else from county
staff?
09:45:44 I believe that concludes the presentation, but I just wanna verify
09:45:54 Is there like if you're online I don't hear her. Okay, Well, this hunt I
have. If that's concluded the staff presentation.
09:46:03 I take your work. now we will move on to the Africa team Ms. Kamer. which
individuals would you like to call upon to make the applicant presentation
regarding the conditional use permit application most Ehrlichman's computer
09:46:18 just crashed. she just sent an email saying she'll be back as quickly as
possible. Well, why don't we take just a moment here because I just wanna make sure
that i'm not moving forward before So everybody just hold tight and as soon as
09:46:30 Mick ms litman's back on helena if you'd let me know, and i'll turn my
audio video back
09:49:02 There we go. Is there like men. Are you back online
09:49:24 Opening. No, that would that, concludes our staff presentation. Thank you.
09:49:28 So now we will move on to the Africa team and Miss Kaylor, if you want
again, if you want to again tell me who the optical team would like to call for
their presentation.
09:49:38 And during that presentation whichever individual you call I would ask
that you address one thing let me know if you all reviewed the staff report.
09:49:50 If you agree with the analysis, or you take exception to parts of the
analysis, and let me know if you take exception to any of the recommended
conditions of approval, or if you accept them as written and you can make that part
of your presentation, however.
09:50:04 you choose. But if you don't i'm gonna ask you that question at the end,
so it's probably best to make it part of your presentation.
09:50:11 So I, Miss Kaylor. The floor is yours. thank you, Mr.
09:50:16 Examiner, and I will answer your question up front. We the analysis in the
staff report and accept the conditions as drafted, and for our presentation the
applicant, Miss Burkhart, will walk through a brief powerpoint and
09:50:37 Miss Burkhart, would you like me to share that or or would you like to do
that?
09:50:41 I'll go ahead and do that. Okay, before you begin, if you would please
raise your right hand before you go blank with the screen of slides.
09:50:50 Ms. Burkhart, Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give
today will be the truth.
09:50:55 The whole truth and nothing about the truth. I do. Ms.
09:50:57 Burkhart. The floor is yours. Okay? Hello, not. Can you give me the
ability to share screen?
09:51:03 Yes, I just gave you that
09:51:12 Ms. Burkhardt About how much time do you think you need less than 10 min,
probably closer to 5?
09:51:19 Thank you, Mr. Hearing Examiner, for the opportunity to provide a brief
context about
09:51:26 Pomona Woods, which I think will help everyone understand.
09:51:32 The first thing to understand about pomona woods is that it's not a hotel,
nor is it a resort.
09:51:39 It's being specifically designed to host small group retreats for the
purpose of education and Richmond and connection.
09:51:46 My idea is that by hosting gatherings in a beautiful 2 and a half acre
forest in a sustainably designed, an operated building.
09:51:57 Guests will come away wanting to do and be better together, no matter what
the content of their retreat, and keeping the guest limit to 35, we can ensure
light use of the site, and but also be big enough that the
09:52:11 organizers can invite enough people to cover their costs and create
dynamic interactions.
09:52:17 A focus on nature and habitat preservation is that the cornerstone of our
low footprint operating philosophy?
09:52:26 We are designing to and we'll seek certification at the lead gold level
from the Us.
09:52:32 Green Building Council lead for those who Aren't from with it is a
holistic system that Isn't simply focused on one element of the building like water
or energy or health.
09:52:46 Rather it looks at the big picture factoring in all the critical elements
that work together to create the best building possible.
09:52:53 We hired John Harrison to guide us through the lead process, and our
entire team, from architect to builder, civil, and Mep, engineer and interior
designer, are enthused about designing to lead gold.
09:53:10 John Harrison is nationally and internationally recognized as a lead
expert.
09:53:15 After starting his career at Methoon, where he designed the lead Certified
Island Wood Environmental Building center, he left for Starbucks, where he authored
the lead for retail volume build program, and now he is at the Company.
09:53:33 That he founded green slate sustainability. An important element of
designing to a certification is being able to communicate to guests community
members and business partners in a credible, easy to understand way.
09:53:52 So that it can inspire others to adopt some or many of the same practices.
09:53:58 The examples in the bullets are just a few ways that we will see to bring
sustainable choices to the building in order to get the points for significantly,
gold certification just to give you a sense for Why guests will come to mona
09:54:15 woods. I have 3 main use cases, the first being organizations which
frequently have a need to come together outside of the office environment to
inspire connection to each other and to learn play solve problems.
09:54:34 This is an even greater need. now. as many we're going back to, and
everyone in the office environment just like us here. face to face, is still
important and retreat centers versus a traditional hotel is The perfect
09:54:51 venue. Many people also enjoy going to retreat to share a interest like
quilting or literature, or to practice discipline, such as yoga writing or other
healing arts.
09:55:11 I Won't go into the slide the man to cover Amanda Hunt covered it in
detail.
09:55:16 Just want to emphasize that we carefully reviewed both performance and
use, standard and comprehensive plan before purchasing the property, and we believe
we'll fully comply with these standards as well as exceed the
09:55:31 counties permitting requirements through our lead certification process.
I'm. convinced. in our that after Pomona Woods is launched, the neighbors will
barely notice our existence ms Han also
09:55:47 talked about the changes that we made in the site plan to accommodate
neighbors.
09:55:52 So I won't present that side save time so in addition to helping our
guests do, and be better.
09:56:01 I foresee that Promota woods will positively contribute to the community
in a variety of ways based on my projections.
09:56:09 I believe we'll contribute 38 to 40,000 a year in property taxes, and then
an additional 100,000 inside, and use and lodging tax project.
09:56:20 Jefferson County. we will create a few jobs, but more importantly. We will
be sourcing locally as much as possible, strengthening a variety of businesses.
09:56:31 We'll provide a space for artists and wellness practitioners to host
workshops.
09:56:37 And we'll connect the guest to the community through outings, or by
bringing in invited speakers, especially as the business grows.
09:56:46 We look forward to being active members in the community working together
on local issues.
09:56:52 I'm already participating with the chamber of Jefferson County
volunteering, and have participated in events put on by the Jefferson Land Trust.
09:57:04 I'm lean, and in conclusion I just want to share a little bit about myself
for you, Mr.
09:57:10 Examiner as well as my neighbors. I was born and raised in the Puget Sound
area, and my family goes back 4 generations in Washington State.
09:57:18 In fact, the name Pomona words comes from my great grandparents orchard in
Dayton, Washington.
09:57:27 And that which was pomona ranch i've spent most of my career working on
environmental and social justice issues either for corporations or not for profits
like care and earthworm foundation.
09:57:41 I followed a family legacy of service, volunteering on boards and in
discrete activities and in a lot of different ways.
09:57:52 Most recently I became a soundwater steward, which involved months of
study, and also is a commitment of a 100 service hours.
09:58:03 I share this just to emphasize that I have a proven lifetime commitment to
the environment and social justice.
09:58:12 The details in the Pomona would plan aren't just marketing.
09:58:17 They represent my core values, and how I live my beliefs in the world.
09:58:22 I'm not a developer by profession I am one woman living out an
entrepreneurial dream after a lifetime of developing the skills and network to help
make it happen.
09:58:34 Thank you very much for your time and careful consideration, and that
concludes my brief remarks.
09:58:41 Thank you, Ms. Burkhart. Your presentation
09:58:45 Is your slide show already assigned an exhibit number?
09:58:49 And if not, or do you know or I don't know if it's been assigned.
09:58:53 Oh, go ahead. Yeah, Mr. Examiner, we did share the slides show in advance
with the parties.
09:58:58 In reviewing the carey's most recent witness and exhibit list.
09:59:04 I'm not sure that it made it on there i'm not seeing it.
09:59:08 And so I think, I I Don't know if you've had the opportunity to see Mr.
09:59:12 Examiner or the county did just circulate and updated exhibit list.
09:59:17 They're up to number 72 at this point so this would be added as Number 73.
09:59:23 And if there's no objection, I will accept the flight, show as presented
as the next numbered exhibit, and I will rely on this hunt, or Mr.
09:59:33 Lugman to verify the proper number but Miss kay Order kindly indicated
what number probably would be assigned.
09:59:38 But in case you're missing one you all can fix it at the end.
09:59:41 But is there, Let me he's already. got a number yeah, yeah, no.
09:59:45 That's fine. we we're happy to do that but I would say that miss, most
recent slideshow is also not in the record.
09:59:55 So it, unless there are any objections we'd like to add that as well, I
strongly prefer that I did see that there was an exhibit assigned slideshow, and I
opened it before today and it looked like the
10:00:06 one from way back in so would you like it's probably best for it to have a
separate exhibit number instead of placing the other one that appeared on the
Internet for everybody .
10:00:20 So without objection, I will admit the slideshow by Miss Hunt, as
presented today as a numbered exhibit, and I will rely on staff to assign that
number, and we will take care of that before we close the
10:00:31 record. Thank you, Miss Kaylor. Did that conclude the applicant
presentation? yes, Mr.
10:00:39 Examiner staff report was quite thorough. and the the record is also
thorough.
10:00:46 We know that that you have or will review that so we're not going to to
the labor any of the points.
10:00:55 But do believe that this project has meant to be conditional.
10:00:56 Use permit criteria in the county code, as demonstrated by both of the
presentations today, as well as the information in the record, and would request
approval.
10:01:07 As I mentioned earlier, we will have some expert testimony as well in the
sepa component of the hearing and and belief that that testimony will also support
approval of the conditional experiment.
10:01:19 So with that we'll conclude the applicants presentation and as I did with
the staff presentation, the applicant team reserves the right to present additional
testimony as part of the conditional use permit hearing should you choose to
10:01:31 do so to respond to any questions or public comments that might be made
during the public hearing that i'm about to open for the conditional use permit
application.
10:01:41 Okay, Alright, noting that you reserve the right to call your experts.
10:01:46 That might also be duplicated as part of a Cpa appeal and call the one
time as part of that.
10:01:51 Okay, alright. So it's not 10 o'clock and I'm ready to keep moving here.
now, as an opportunity for any members of the public who might be online who wish
Mr. Siddles you've turned your Video: on and it looks like
10:02:04 you want to say something if i'm ready to open the public hearing
regarding the conditional use permit apprentices. I I was So you know, as these new
exhibit lists come in I don't
10:02:22 have copies of the exhibits after from from 56 onwards.
10:02:32 I have the list that referenced them I don't have the exhibits themselves.
10:02:37 In particular. I don't have applicants transportation response dated
Friday, and I don't have applicants noise.
10:02:46 Technical Review also dated Friday and the habitat summary.
10:02:50 So there's like 3 applicant reports dated Friday that I don't have Can I
get copies of those
10:02:58 Oh, yes, thank you. apologies are misdated.
10:03:05 I believe the date reflects the time, the date they were.
10:03:10 Maybe added to the list i'm not sure what the date reflects, but those are
all of the exhibits that you received initially way back as part of our initial
exhibit and expert report exchange prior to
10:03:25 the originally scheduled hearing. These are not new things you say, like
many.
10:03:49 Did you have something to have? I just would say those were inadvertently
missed initially in creating the record.
10:03:57 Just due to a technical glitch. And so when we reviewed it last week, we
realized that we were missing something.
10:04:06 So we they are all available on laser fish at this point in time, and they
and Miss Kaylor's representation was that these are materials that were distributed
to council months ago.
10:04:19 Is that your understanding was Does that sound right Portney that sounds
right.
10:04:27 I'd have to go back and check yeah according to the point, Mr. Sidel, it
sounds like it's information you have. but you can clarify that if you find out
something else, we have a we have a lot of people online and ready to
10:04:40 move forward to public hearing. if you find that there's something you
still don't have let me know.
10:04:45 But it sounds like you do alright now, it's an opportunity for any members
of the public who might be on this online hearing platform or by telephone.
10:04:56 Who wish to speak today regarding the conditional use, permit application
to let everybody know if you are an expert, lay person or otherwise, Who's been
told that you are going to be called during the sepa appeal as a witness for
10:05:11 either the county, the applicant, or the appellant you will be recognized
by one of those attorneys when the sepa appeal starts, which is not this part.
10:05:22 This is for the conditional use. permit application so if you've come into
the hearing today, and you want to offer public comments regarding the conditional
use.
10:05:32 Permit application now will be your opportunity to speak on that issue.
10:05:37 Everybody when you speak. This is not a question and answer session.
10:05:40 But if you do have questions put the questions in as part of your comment,
and once everybody is done making public comments, I will turn to the applicant
team and the staff team to respond to all comments and questions.
10:05:54 That people have put on the tape all at one time.
10:05:56 Okay, so unless there was a list how old are that anybody created.
10:06:02 Because I don't think there is i'm gonna open it up to people who wish to
speak.
10:06:07 If you want to hit your raise hand, feature on zoom i'll see that, or turn
on your video, and then wave your hand, and i'll see you and you should pop up and
i'll call your name and I will ask you
10:06:17 to introduce yourself and spell your name and then pause and then I will
put you under oath, so that you can provide your testimony.
10:06:26 I'm gonna ask everybody because I see 27 participants that probably need
to get a lot of people. i'm gonna ask you all to keep your comments to about 3 min.
10:06:37 And if you feel you can't do that let me know, and i'll cut you off at
about 3 min.
10:06:43 I have the slowest clock in Western Washington just to let you know I'm
not a good timekeeper.
10:06:48 But I will let you have a second bite at the apple after everyone else has
one chance to speak.
10:06:53 If you feel that you couldn't get all your comments in within the time
limit that i'm signing.
10:06:59 Okay. So who would like to speak? If you do, please raise your hand and
let me go.
10:07:04 Anybody I see a person who's typed in Gordon James, Mr.
10:07:13 James, if you would turn your microphone on you're muted right now, or
staff, if you need to turn his microphone on, go ahead and do that.
10:07:21 Let him into the to testify. Have Good morning, Mr. James.
10:07:24 Can you hear me? Okay, I can hear you. Can you hear me?
10:07:28 I can hear you fine. It is your in fact, Gordon James R. D. O. N. J. A. M.
10:07:34 E. s correct. Alright, Mr. James, if you would raise your right hand, do
you swear or affirm that testimony you are about to give today will be the truth,
the whole truth.
10:07:42 And nothing but the truth. I do. You may proceed, sir. thank you.
10:07:49 My name is Gordon James. I have resided at 34, 47, o pay road since 90 95
I'm.
10:07:57 A concerned citizen taxpayer. I opposed to Pomona Woods Hotel Conference
Center.
10:08:08 The character. The pride proposed project is not harmonious, and in
design, character, and appearance, with the existing or intended character and
quality of development.
10:08:20 In the vicinity of the subject product property. I am also concerned very
much about stormwater runoff.
10:08:31 It will have to flow through the properties on the other side of Oak Bay
Road and down to the bay.
10:08:39 I live below the Skywater. residential properties and storm water has
caused the loss of 40 feet high and a 175 feet wide of the bluff in front of my
home uphill storm water must the runoff
10:09:07 must be controlled by the applicant
10:09:17 As a proposed property must be managed, the conditional use should be
approved.
10:09:27 Should it be approved. To that end the proponents should have to cover all
exterior hidescape, including roads, semite permeable materials.
10:09:46 I thank you. Yeah. keep 3. well done, Mr. James. I appreciate you making
your points effectively and efficiently.
10:09:57 That gives everybody else an opportunity to do the same. thank you for
showing how it's done. Good morning. You may stay online and watch the rest of the
hearing as you please.
10:10:09 Is there anyone else who wishes to speak? Please use your zoom hand or
turn on your video and wave your hand.
10:10:15 I see some here who the email says George heines that that individual
would please turn on the right phone or staff if you would turn it on for them.
10:10:26 You're muted right Now there we go hello who are you
10:10:37 Would you please raise your right hand, and you are Kathy Hines.
10:10:40 Is that correct? alright, Miss hines do you swear or affirm the testimony
you're about to give today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth.
10:10:51 Yeah, you may proceed. Miss Hans was the issue of potable water for the
site, and that seems to have been addressed.
10:11:00 And I would like to make sure that's a condition that they are connected
to the quimper water system.
10:11:07 To proceed. my next concerns are environmental concerns.
10:11:11 This property has several wetlands, 2 streams, and the fact that these
areas were not identified during the sepo process and were readily located when we
called out the department of ecology.
10:11:23 The easy need to believe the sepa determination of non‐significance was
done without a thorough thoroughly review of the It is also a great concern that
Both Cpa determinations were made.
10:11:34 After long drought conditions, and they did not look at the subject
property during the rainy season.
10:11:41 This is especially true, due to the large, clear cut that was recently
completed to North and West Side proposed development.
10:11:45 I can tend that this determination should be reassessed in the rating
months with the newly completed clear cut taken into account, these new
circumstances should be taken into consideration and extermination made on the
changing conditions with
10:11:59 the complete assessment, the determination of adequate infrastructure
cannot be made.
10:12:04 Has there been a study done by a hydrogen geologist to determine the
effects of runoff from the clear cut and proposed in permeable surfaces?
10:12:15 Secondly, the conditional use is harmonious, and design, character, and
appearance of existing development proposed.
10:12:20 24 room, hotel, resort, commercial kitchen, 30 space, parking lot, guest
cottages.
10:12:29 As heines It looks like you see stuff I can't hear your audio
10:12:38 Ms Heinz. It looks like her computer seized up.
10:12:45 So Miss heinz we can't hear you right now. So i'm gonna move on to the
next person in his hinds when you stabilize your Internet connection.
10:12:54 You may want to turn it off and come right back. I will come back to you
for another minute of we've lost Ms. hein?
10:13:03 So. is there someone else who would like to speak? So please turn on your
video and raise your hand or use your zoom raised hand feature.
10:13:10 Anybody
10:13:16 Mr. is it, Malin? If you would turn your microphone on
10:13:22 Yeah, Maelen, Thank you. and visit spelled correctly there.
10:13:27 C. H. R. S. M. A. L. Am. and it said Mainland like Long A.
10:13:34 Oh, yeah, yes, sir. Alright, Mr. Mayland, if you would raise your right
hand, do you swear?
10:13:37 Or affirm that testimony you're about to give today will be the truth.
10:13:40 The whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I do. all right, Mr.
10:13:44 Mainland, you may proceed all right. just in general I feel the county has
made a rush to judgment in determining that the criteria necessary to grant a
conditional use.
10:14:02 Permit has been met. I'll Speak to those hello individually Miss Hines.
10:14:08 We lost your connection. i'm gonna come back to you after Mr.
10:14:09 Mayland. So i'll come back to you okay Thank you.
10:14:17 Thank you. I'll speak specifically to a couple of those can do hit mute on
your device.
10:14:27 Please go ahead, Mr. Mainland. i'm not gonna take away your time.
10:14:31 There, go ahead. Thank you. We feel that the hotel conference center, and
you know we can call it a retreat, a Yoga retreat, or whatever.
10:14:42 But the reality is this is a hotel conference center and
10:14:48 While there may be a condition now that individual rooms can't be rented
if the applicants business model should not bear fruition and need to be changed.
it.
10:15:00 It is not outside the normal possibility to the county will say, Okay, you
can rent individual rooms.
10:15:06 So we really need to think about this is What It really is it's a hotel
conference center.
10:15:11 It's not a little yoga retreat and we oppose it, because we were.
10:15:15 We took over 2 years searching property and a rural residential context to
purchase.
10:15:24 We started that process in 2,010 in 2,012.
10:15:28 We found our property, which is across the street and to the south of the
proposed development, and this materially changes the nature of our neighborhood,
and I think that the DCD.
10:15:39 Has not given careful consideration to the way this is going to change our
neighborhood.
10:15:46 Let me speak specifically to the concerns that we have concerning the
stormwater runoff.
10:15:53 When it rains. Stormwater runs off the lands above Oak Bay road, collects
in a ditch on the uphill side of the road, and passes under the road through
culverts.
10:16:02 The stormwater, then passes over and through the lands to the east of Oak
Bay Road and into Oak Bay.
10:16:07 During heavier, sustained rains. The streams of runoff waters on the lands
to the east of Oak Bay Road are torrential.
10:16:16 I have personally witnessed this as a landowner, as a property owner over
the past many years.
10:16:24 At times the surface damage they have done to these lands has been
devastating. The water is percolating down through these lands and leaching out or
coming out in the form of Artesian springs.
10:16:35 In the bank face it above, obey, have caused massive landslide as
referenced by Mr.
10:16:44 James, and loss of the bank. I have witnessed several of these massive
landslides.
10:16:47 The damage to the bank face and the lands above the bank has been
astonishing.
10:16:53 The responsibility for maintaining the bank, and the shoreline is that of
the shoreline property owners.
10:16:57 The Shoreline Management Act imposes strict limitations on shoreline
property.
10:17:03 Owners in the management of these sensitive areas
10:17:15 Mr. Malen, is your audio off, Mr. Mayland? Mr.
10:17:24 Malen, but we can't hear you
10:17:33 Can you hear me now, Mr. Examiner? Yes, you fell off
10:17:37 You were talking about Landslides Low Bay, and then you went on.
10:17:41 So back up and restate with I apologize i'm not sure what happened.
10:17:47 Let me back up, and I apologize if I if I repeat myself the the surface
run off, and the leaching from the banks of caused massive landslides in the bank
on the shores of oak
10:18:02 bay. The damage to the bank face and the lands above the bank has been
astonishing.
10:18:07 The responsibility for maintaining the bank, and the shoreline is that of
the shoreline property owners.
10:18:11 I'm. one of them, the shoreline management act imposes strict limitations
on shoreline property owners in the management of these sensitive areas.
10:18:20 Clear cutting of forced lands around the proposed development, and the
addition of more than 53,000 square feet of impervious surface will cumulatively
increase both surface flows and suburface migration of water through the
10:18:32 shoreline properties. The county is either ignored the serious threat of
these impacts to the shoreline properties, or has deliberately disregarded these
significant negative impacts on the shoreline properties the county has given
10:18:45 no consideration to these issues whatsoever. Its conclusion that
applicants on site, Stormwater Plan was the possible requirement of arrang garden
or 2 is grossly inadequate.
10:18:58 Shoreline, excuse me, is grossly inadequate, short‐sighted, and we submit
a dereliction of its planning obligations.
10:19:06 Under the Shoreline Management Act. It ignores the inevitable downstream
impacts of these cumulative negative developments.
10:19:15 The Cup Requirements are clear the County may approve or approve, with
modifications and Application for a conditional Use, permit only if all of the 12
Triteria are satisfied, i'd like to speak to 2 or 3 of
10:19:27 those the conditional use will not be materially detrimental to the uses
or property in the vicinity of the subject.
10:19:34 Parcel we submit Mr. examiner that this development. will in fact, be
materially will impact our properties in a material negative fashion. I'm going to
give you one more minute.
10:19:47 You've had a little bit of a technical problem but you're running along
here.
10:19:55 Okay, And if there are, if there's time after others speak, might I?
10:19:58 The conditional use complies. Well, let me let me speak to the the first
detrimental uses of properties.
10:20:11 The county has conducted its review of the Cp. applications in a Checklist
box manner and limited its review to the proposed Development site.
10:20:19 The submitted stormwater Management plan and Stonewater Site Plan.
10:20:25 Proposes to meet the requirements of of the regulations.
10:20:30 We respectfully submit that the county has failed to examine the material
and significant detrimental effects of the Pomona Woods Hotel Conference Center on
properties in the vicinity.
10:20:40 The proposed development. Specifically, the county has failed to assess
the impacts of the Hotel Conference Center on neighborhood neighborhood properties
between the hotel and Oak Bay.
10:20:48 The criteria referenced above have not and cannot be satisfied without a
thorough evaluation of these material and significant depth.
10:20:58 Detrimental impacts on these neighboring properties.
10:21:01 The the I want to reference and I reference later, your honor, the
Shoreline Management act.
10:21:10 I'm not gonna have time to get into the details of it Now I hope to.
10:21:15 If there's time following, other comments but I will just conclude my
remarks right now by suggesting that the Shoreline Management Act is clear.
10:21:27 I'll give you the the reference that the county and the DCD.
10:21:31 Have an obligation to take into consideration the shoreline Management
Act.
10:21:36 I mean it's planning processes and that includes the impacts on the
environment of the shoreline, and we would submit that the county has not taken
into account the significant impacts of the stormwater runoff and the impact on
10:21:50 the downstream properties. Okay, Mr. Mayland you already asked for a
second byte of apple, and you ran away over time. so I'm going to cut you off.
10:21:58 Thank you very much. I'm gonna come back to you after everybody else has
at least one time to speak.
10:22:03 I don't mean to be impolite i'm not being I'm being respectful to
everybody else.
10:22:07 It's online. I explain the rules and I appreciate you recognize they apply
to everyone.
10:22:11 Alright, i'm gonna turn now, to Ms Heinz, who have some technical
difficulties.
10:22:16 Miss Hinds. you were about to wrap up it sounded like so i'm going to give
you another minute or so.
10:22:21 Can you hear me? and would you please turn your microphone back on you?
10:22:24 Remain under oath. the floor is yours. Once again this hides.
10:22:28 Turn on your mic. There you go!
10:22:36 Okay, I don't know where I cut off i'd like to reiterate with the
possibility of increased buffers for Wetlands to minimize the already massive
impact to our property.
10:22:46 I would request that the site plans should not, for in any instance be
shifted closer to the north side of set property.
10:22:52 There is an expectation that owners of residential property have a right
to the peaceful enjoyment of set property.
10:22:59 I feel that the impact of this development on our property and quality of
life have not been properly addressed.
10:23:03 One to 2 years of commercial construction. Your rival departure of up to
35 guests Daily delivery trucks, hikers, campfires, operating noise, and
gatherings, will increase the noise levels on our property 100 to
10:23:16 1,000 cold, we would have ongoing traffic, toumes, dust, and odors from
construction, vehicles arriving and departing, and greatly increased.
10:23:25 Noise, pollution? How are my rights to a peaceful environment being upheld
with?
10:23:28 To constructs a large glass structure with outdoor lighting for past and
common areas and headlines from vehicles.
10:23:35 Our property will be inundated with light. The north side of our park does
not offer adequate natural screen.
10:23:40 Get proposed building site to block this slide and the site line of the
parking and building areas.
10:23:45 The current state of our property is a totally quiet and private
environment.
10:23:49 The only access to our houses to a gated driveway.
10:23:52 The security and privacy will be greatly affected by the proposed
development.
10:23:55 With the only signs to keep trespassers offer property, there will
undoubtedly be hikers wandering on to our land from the whole north side.
10:24:03 Given the fact that the majority of the Pomona Woods property is steeping
on hikeable, there will be a natural inclination to stray under a bridge.
10:24:10 The prospect of accounting strangers in our property is very concerning,
especially with my In this area, which we have an overall lifestyle.
10:24:26 The expectation residents, and it gives continuation of this lifestyle
that they bought and paid for.
10:24:30 I believe that it's a reasonable expectation that the lifestyle would not
be jeopardized by a large‐scale development, a rural forest and environment, and
that the dreams of one would not overshadow that of
10:24:39 all existing homeowners thank you thank you ms Heinz. i'm sorry you had to
take from, but thank you for cooperating coming back with everything you had to say
thank You let's see, now I will
10:24:54 turn to the next person who wants to speak, and Donna Beaten has had her
zoom hand raised for a while.
10:25:03 If all others would go ahead and hit mute Ms.
10:25:06 Be beaten if you would turn your microphone on and your video if you
haven't.
10:25:09 Okay, I have the microphone on i'll refrain from the video.
10:25:12 Since that seems to be causing problems this beaten I recognize you, and
if everybody else would turn off their video to appreciate it. But I really like to
see the witness when they're speaking. if that's possible.
10:25:27 It's not working properly. the camera, so alright without it, but
everybody else.
10:25:36 If you've got video capability I would really rather see you on video.
10:25:42 Is beaten. do you swear or affirm that testimony you're about to give
today will be the truth.
10:25:46 The whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Yes, I do is beaten. the floor
is yours.
10:25:51 Thank you for being here. I agree with the previous speakers.
10:25:59 And also I want to point out that with regard to water runoff.
10:26:05 We're not just dealing with storm water runoff we're dealing with what
comes from a very large septic system.
10:26:13 The supply of that wire has been addressed not to come from wells, but all
that water still has to be disposed of, and it coming through one area of septic
system is also going to be cause a problem of the
10:26:28 properties downhill, and to the south of the subject property, and I want
to mention them at 35, 33 oak bay roll, which is about 4 tens of a mile from the
proposed project.
10:26:44 Also in i'd like to make comments about the report that the Development
Office prepared the responses to some of the residents concerned.
10:26:57 I thought we're not properly researched one is saying just with the
statement that no precedent is going to be established, and I don't think that's
true.
10:27:11 You cannot wave away that a precedent will be established.
10:27:17 Traffic increase. you cannot say there will be no traffic or just a
moderate traffic increase.
10:27:24 You cannot control when and how many people are coming there. you cannot
enforce that.
10:27:28 They car pool again, the same with noise. You cannot control people to
such an extent to keep them quiet all of the time.
10:27:40 And another thing I want to bring up is that I do not think I did
conditional use.
10:27:45 Permit is the appropriate way to deal with this.
10:27:48 This really should be under a zoning variance, and one of the reasons for
that is that a conditional use permit as it is in this application, can be
transferred to another owner.
10:28:05 So say something happens to Ms. burkhart and we all think she's a nice
lady now, and has a great vision.
10:28:12 Something happens to. She wants to sell the property, either because of
something happening in her life or her business model is not working out and who
buys it?
10:28:22 Someone who has a different vision. someone who says well that bottle
didn't quite work.
10:28:27 I'm gonna tweak it. a little bit all the infrastructure is in place for a
nice big air. B, and B, which you will have a huge impact, or it could be a hotel.
10:28:39 Now is this anyone ready to modify this application, saying that all this
infrastructure must be removed, to restore it to be in compliance with the current
zoning?
10:28:51 This is something to think about. we can't just think about what's going
to happen as soon as this place is built.
10:28:59 We have to think 2 years, 5 years, 10 years down the road
10:29:06 The next person i'll recognize if you would please hit your race hand
feature, or turn on your video and wave your hand, and i'll try to see it.
10:29:22 Are there any other members to public who would like to offer comments
10:29:30 Oh, there we go! I see it, says Laney Ross on my screen.
10:29:34 So with that person would please turn on their microphone i'll recognize
you next. your microphone still muted.
10:29:44 It appears There we go. And who are you? my name is Terry Ross.
10:29:50 I live at T. E. Ri Ros. Okay, Ms.
10:29:59 Ross, do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give today?
10:30:03 Will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10:30:05 I do, you may proceed. Thank you for being here. Thank you, your Honor.
10:30:13 I live at 2971 o bay road right across from this proposed project, and my
driveway is exactly across the street from the one that they cut in My driveway was
has a small level.
10:30:32 Oholition up to Oak Bay Road, which causes me to go just to the edge of
the road to see oncoming traffic with more cars, trucks delivery garbage tracks
coming in and out this
10:30:46 proposed property may cause traffic hazards and possible accidents.
10:30:53 If people going around, the drivers that are trying to turn into the hotel
will come on of it other side of the road to get around them.
10:31:02 This is, there is not one driveway on Oak Bay Road that is, directly
across from another, and there is also no commercial businesses on Oak Bay Road,
between the old Alcohol plant in Port Tadlock and the Ian
10:31:17 in Port Ludlow. This is 8 miles of rural residential homes, and this
matter would not be if the property was just
10:31:29 R. 5, and built maximum of 4 homes, there would not cause this kind of
traffic.
10:31:37 This is basically part of the problem with the my driveway is right across
the street.
10:31:45 And i've already had trouble with contractors trucks being on my apron,
and i'm not being able to see when I come out of my driveway.
10:31:55 So. I do have a lot of the other concerns that other people have had.
10:32:01 This is residential area, and there's absolutely no other businesses
around, and we all bought here for quiet rural residential areas.
10:32:19 And we really don't agree with that's proposal. Thank you for your time. .
10:32:26 Thank you. Ms. Ross. Appreciate you being here today.
10:32:30 Are there any other individuals who wish to offer comments regarding the
conditional use? permit application?
10:32:36 If so, please use the zoom feature or turn to raise your hand or turn on
your video and wave your hand, and I'll try to recognize you.
10:32:44 I should say, try to see you, and they call your name
10:32:50 Last call for any members of the public who might be online who want to
offer comments regarding the conditional use. Permit application.
10:32:59 Please raise your hand so I can recognize you I don't see anybody else.
10:33:07 So I didn't see anybody else so now I'm gonna come back to the one person
who did testify Mr.
10:33:13 Maylock, as I told you after everybody had one bite at Apple, i'm going to
come back to you, and I will give you another 3 min although you did run long.
10:33:23 So please try not use them all 3 up covering some of the other conditional
use.
10:33:29 Permit criteria that you felt were not satisfied.
10:33:32 So if you want to target those that would be helpful. Yeah.
10:33:35 And before I start your honor, I I know that neighbors Evan and Marsha
Cana have a prepared remarks that they would like to share.
10:33:45 I know they're traveling today, they were going to be back in town on
Tuesday.
10:33:52 But Terry, if you have their remarks I don't have them.
10:33:55 But if I would propose your honor that someone be allowed to read the
caning's remarks into the record as well in their absence, well, I would prefer
that if there's a written comment somebody wanted to submit that they
10:34:09 transmit that via email to county staff, and it will be accepted as a
written comment, as all other written comments have been.
10:34:19 So if you can see that that happens before close to business I will allow
that.
10:34:22 But there's no reason for somebody to read something that is really a
written comment that should have been sent in as a written comment.
10:34:29 I will allow that to happen. Did you say it was the kane eggs?
10:34:32 Is that Ko and I koei and nig Okay, alright, I'll allow you to do that.
10:34:37 But close to business. all right, Mr. Mayland, if you would go ahead with
your marks.
10:34:41 Thank you. very, very good. thank you. So that back to the conditional use
will not materially detrimental, will not be materially detrimental to uses or
property in the vicinity of the subject parcel
10:34:56 we I may repeat myself, but we respectfully submit that the county has
failed to examine the material with significant detrimental impacts of Mono.
10:35:07 Once Hotel Conference center on properties in the vicinity.
10:35:09 Specifically, the county has failed to assess the impacts of the Hotel
Conference Center on neighboring properties between the hotel and Oak Bay.
10:35:16 We're going back to the shoreline management act the criteria referenced
above have not and cannot be satisfied without a thorough evaluation of these
material and significant detrimental impacts.
10:35:27 On these neighboring properties the applicant is proposing 53,497 square
feet.
10:35:35 1 point, 3, 2, 3 acres of new, impervious surface, and 85,064 square feet,
or 1 point, 9, 5 acres of land.
10:35:42 Disturbing activities. In addition to the new impervious surface and the
land, disturbing activities, timber, clear cutting of many acres upland from and
around the proposed development will have a material and cumulative effects on
10:35:53 the stormwater from a hotel development concentration of subsurface water
will pass.
10:36:03 Excuse me of surface stormwater will pass over and through the neighboring
properties which lie between the Hotel Project and Oak Bay.
10:36:11 As I mentioned earlier, the owners of these properties will bear the cost
and the burden of increased stormwater runoff erosion. management.
10:36:20 The impacts of the proposed hotel development will be imposed by imposed
on the property owners downhill.
10:36:26 From the development. Thus the impacts that cost of increased stormwater
will be borne by the owners of the properties between the proposed development and
the waters of oak bay economists.
10:36:36 Called these impacts and cost cost externalities. These cost externalities
shift the costs and burdens from the hotel development from of Polona, which to the
neighboring property owners these downhill neighboring property owners
10:36:49 are subject to all regulations and limitations imposed by the Shoreline
Management Act.
10:36:54 This act restricts shoreline up property owners in the management of bank
erosion, and imposes obligations on them to protect against the net loss of
shoreline, ecological functions.
10:37:05 And or resources. The county has failed to consider these material and
significant detrimental impacts on the property in the vicinity of the proposed
hotel, and the significant adverse impacts on the shoreline ecological
10:37:18 functions of resources. The county stated a property evaluate, and
consider these detrimental and adverse impacts violates the county's duty under the
Shoreline management, Act, while the shoreline management act regulatory
10:37:30 provisions may not apply directly to the proposed hotel development.
10:37:34 The county is bound to consider the requirements of the shoreline
Management Act, and it's planning responsibilities under the Jefferson County
comprehensive plan, and it's implementing and its implementing developmental
development
10:37:48 regulations, including the Pomona, wood, c. up application, evaluation,
section 18 point, 2, 5, point 0, 3 0 subsections, 5 and 6 of the Shoreline
Management Act.
10:37:59 Provide the following governing principles of the of the master program
The regulatory provisions of this program are limited to shoreline and the State,
whereas the planning functions of this program may extend beyond shoreline
10:38:16 jurisdiction, and it's our argument your honor that the Shoreline
Management Act restrictions and obligations have to be taken into consideration by
the county in its overall planning responsibilities.
10:38:30 The policies and regulations of this program must be integrated.
10:38:33 And Mr. Malin, you're running well over your additional 3 min with you,
would please wrap it up, and if you've already submitted your written comments, let
me know, and if your read you would appear to be reading from a
10:38:45 written statement. If you would like to submit that as part of the record,
I will allow you to do that.
10:38:50 But close the business today. i'll wrap up shortly the policy of
regulations of this program.
10:38:57 Shine Management act and Growth coordinated with the policies and rules of
Jefferson County.
10:39:05 Comprehensive plan. your Honor, we respectfully submit that the county is
bound to consider Shoreline Management Act in connection with its development.
planning, including the evaluation of the promoter, woods c.
10:39:21 Up this the county has failed to do There's been not a word included in
any of the DCD.
10:39:26 Reports or recommendations whatsoever. regarding these important issues.
10:39:31 We further respectfully submit that a fair and objective evaluation of the
Polona woods, c.
10:39:37 Up application requires a finding that stormwater impacts alone will be
materially detrimental to neighboring properties. in the vicinity of the subject.
10:39:45 Parcel does not comply with all other applicable criteria and standards of
the code.
10:39:50 Mr. Maleam, Mr. Mayland, you're not wrapping up. I asked you to wrap up.
10:39:58 I I am wrapping up your honor. that was that's my that was my concluding
with respect. I gave you an opportunity.
10:40:02 Submit your written comments and you accepted that so if you would please
email your written statement to Miss Hansie mail address, and it'll be incorporated
as part of the record.
10:40:12 We'll do that, and your honor, thank you for your consideration, and for
the extra time simply would make a final request that the county be required to
meet its obligations under the shoreline management act in its planning of these
these
10:40:28 additional projects, like Pomona. what's that you made that point multiple
times during your comments I made notes about that.
10:40:34 I heard you. Thank you very much, Mr. Mate. Okay, I opened it for
everybody that wanted to speak, and I've heard everybody who asked for recognition
as explained.
10:40:44 At the end of all public comments which we've reached for the conditional
use permit application now is a time to turn to the applicant team and the staff
team to respond to public comments and questions that have been put on the
10:40:55 table it's now 1041, and I think it's probably a logical time to take,
perhaps a 10 min break so that the parties can review their notes, and then we will
come back on the record it's Now 10
10:41:10 41 i'll take a 9 min break we'll come back on the record, and 1050, and I
will then be turning to the Africa team and the staff team to respond to any public
comments.
10:41:24 As they see fit. So now we were on a break If everybody turn off their
microphones and videos.
10:41:28 We'll come back at 1050 Michael now shows 1041 thank you
10:50:24 I hear that our trustee staff has turned back on the recording.
10:50:30 So so. now, as I explain, we are back from our break.
10:50:34 It is now 1050, and we concluded public comments.
10:50:39 And now, as an opportunity for the applicant team and the staff team to
respond to any of those I see Mr.
10:50:45 Sidel's with his right hand. raise so I take it you have procedural
question of some sort. Yes, Mr.
10:50:51 Mcclain, one of my clients who's also planning to testify as a member of
the public has just returned from her doctor's appointment this morning.
10:50:57 She'd like a chance to tell if possible is there any objection.
10:51:02 No just no objection. Francis Ralphsky and Ms.
10:51:12 Rowski is online. If, he or she would please turn on their video.
10:51:18 So I can see them
10:51:22 I'm not seeing anybody. Yes, I I just got a call from my main client
contact that said she had just returned and wanted to speak Ms Ross.
10:51:38 Can you give us an update on Francis?
10:51:41 Is whereabouts
10:51:48 How about this, Mr. sidel's of if you would go offline?
10:51:54 Get hold of the person. Have them sign in I will let the staff or the
Apocalypse begin their response.
10:52:02 But I don't wanna way too. long I thought they were online, and it would
be happy to recognize them right now.
10:52:07 But They're not here. So ms Kaylor and Missouri and I will turn to the
applicant team and the staff team begin responses.
10:52:16 When one of you gets done, then I will turn to the additional Mr.
10:52:21 Sidel's make sure you got your mute on sorry we were hearing you.
10:52:24 So so Miss Kaylor, is. The applicant bears the burden of proof.
10:52:29 Would you like to start the response process? Certainly. Mr. Examiner, in
the public comment today?
10:52:38 I heard stormwater wetlands, no noise and traffic mentioned.
10:52:47 Those are all also sepa appeal issues. So we are going to defer our
response on those items to the sepa.
10:52:55 Appeal again for me. Oh, yes, absolutely storm water.
10:53:04 And with that the potential for erosion does that include that bluff issue
like land slides and things of that sort?
10:53:10 Or is that something you're gonna talk about differently I will mention
that slightly separately in in a moment good stormwater to to the extent the
stormwater runoff from the site would or would not relate to
10:53:30 something happening on the bluff. that would be something that that I
think would generally be encompassed by a discussion of stormwater that I would
expect to occur in the appeal here.
10:53:44 So I I think generally yes, specifically no. Wetlands was the second
topic, and streams as well
10:54:00 See your reserve on stormwater wetlands and streams.
10:54:12 Noise.
10:54:13 Noisy, and finally traffic, including that driveway alignment issue that
was spoken of, and Mr.
10:54:26 Examiner. The other issues that that I heard are already addressed in the
record.
10:54:34 So what I would like to do now is simply run through that list and
indicate where in the record they are addressed so initially. Mr.
10:54:45 Examer. you had a question about whether the other development in the and
the bluff was going to be included in in
10:54:56 Our testimony with regard to erosion and I would simply say that that
appeared to me to be testimony about the claimed impacts of another development
called Skywater.
10:55:11 And about anticipated impacts from a clear cutting that is not on this
site, and as such those would not be impacts of the project wouldn't be
attributable to the project, and not something that we would
10:55:26 anticipate addressing otherwise. Miss Hines requested that service by the
prefer water system be required, and that is condition.
10:55:41 Number 9 in the staff report
10:55:49 There was some discussion by a couple commenters regarding the new nature
of the proposal.
10:55:59 One issue mentioned was that rooms would not be rented individually.
10:56:06 That limitation is present in the application, which is, exhibit 2 on page
3.
10:56:16 Item number one. It is also then reiterated in the staff.
10:56:23 Report on page one in the project description. another item that relates
to that is, the number of guests allowed maximum of 35, and that is discussed in
the application on page 4 item, number 10 and appears as
10:56:45 a condition in the staff report at pages 30 to 31.
10:56:53 There was some testimony that perhaps the use would change to something
else.
10:57:01 And so I will note that condition. 43 in the staff report specifically
says that no other use is allowed without an additional conditional use.
10:57:11 Permit.
10:57:15 So to be really close to Crystal Clear on behalf of you.
10:57:21 You fully understand that the effect of that condition would be
interpreted and applied to me, that if this property is sold, it's for the use
approved.
10:57:28 If this permit were to be approved, not a different use.
10:57:32 Correct. that is, the applicants understanding based both on general law.
10:57:38 And then that specific condition in the staff report proposed condition.
10:57:45 43, and then moving along there was some discussion of the Shoreline
Management Act.
10:57:57 This property is not within the shoreline jurisdiction, and the Shoreline
Management Act, and the county's shoreline.
10:58:07 Master program do not apply to this project In the staff report on page 3
you will see that Oak Bay road which front fronts the project is a approximately
900 feet from huge sound, and of course the one
10:58:23 jurisdiction extends 200 feet.
10:58:26 Ms. Kaylor. you refer to the staff report.
10:58:30 Are you referring to the Staff report original, which is, Exhibit 19 or
the agenda, which is, Exhibit 53.
10:58:38 Thank you for that clarification. All of my references to the Staffer part
are to exhibit 53 and just based on my review, and it appears that exhibit 53 picks
up the discussion in
10:58:51 exhibit 19, so I believe, exhibit 53 is a complete staff report. The staff
can correct me if i'm wrong about that.
10:59:00 I have them both here. I just wanna make sure I open to the right slide.
10:59:03 You wanna be! Look at! There was a discussion of buffers not being
adequate again.
10:59:12 Exhibit 53 on page 4 specifies that the project will have 50 foot buffers
and notes that that buffer width is 35 feet larger than required by code.
10:59:30 There was a concern about trespassers, hikers wandering onto adjacent
properties in exhibit.
10:59:40 53 condition, Number 32 D. requires the applicant to post.
10:59:46 No trespassing signs at the property line to avoid that that happening
10:59:56 There were concerns stated about the septic system, and I will note again,
this is a good 53 condition.
11:00:08 Number 7 requires that that be approved by the County Health Department.
11:00:18 And those are all of the applicants responses to public testimony that
that we have heard to the extent that there's written public testimony that is
received by close of business today.
11:00:35 If we do, can continue tomorrow, then the applicant would reserve the
opportunity to respond to any new issues that were that are raised in those public
comments.
11:00:46 And in fairness. Mr. mail and I see that you're still online.
11:00:51 If you would please email a copy of the written statement that you read
from today.
11:00:58 If you could do that right away because i'm not inviting you to add to
that, or change it, I really I was giving you instruction to share with us the
written comment you made in fairness to everybody they should have a
11:01:09 copy as soon as possible. So if you would please transmit it by email.
11:01:15 To Miss Hunt, I, who is the primary staff person, and she will receive
that. and then Miss Hunt, if you would please share that with the app.
11:01:22 The team so they can review it as soon as possible and provide any
response as needed.
11:01:27 To that item and to I think it was the coning so I don't see that person
on but in fairness to the conigs.
11:01:36 If you're you're on and you were going to transmit your written comment,
Please do so just as soon as possible. it'd be nice if it happened before lunchtime
today.
11:01:45 So And they mentioned Ms. Ross is somebody who might have been in touch if
they could reach out to them and let no transmit that as soon as possible.
11:01:52 So hopefully you would hear response to those written comments today. just
like you're gonna hear responses to the verbal comments that everybody did give
today. Miss Kaylor.
11:02:03 Anything else, nothing further from the applicant i'm Miss Kaylor.
11:02:09 If you were reserving it as part of it as part of your sepa appeal
presentation.
11:02:15 I'm not sure I heard it is definite as as separated as you might have
thought.
11:02:23 I did hear some comments about this is a and i'm paraphrasing.
11:02:27 This is an uphill site things from uphill run downhill that has to do with
water.
11:02:34 It has concerns to do with septic. And and then the particularly the
water.
11:02:39 There were concerns that it contributed to springs that were on bluffs or
downhill properties.
11:02:44 And then there were. There is the potential for failures of bluffs and
downhill properties that lead upon obey.
11:02:54 So. did you see additional response coming forward? on those subjects as
part of the Cpa appeal presentation witnesses. you're calling as part of the Cpa
appeal presentation.
11:03:05 What I anticipate would be a discussion of the conditions relating to
storm water that have been imposed on the project.
11:03:18 And how stormwater is is to be handled under those conditions.
11:03:22 And so, indirectly, I I I think they The just event would be if stormwater
is handled.
11:03:34 Per those conditions, then? you know we're not gonna have those those
torrents running off site that are of concern without testifying here.
11:03:45 Myself. what I expect is that the testimony will relate to how stormwater
would be handled on this site under the conditions of approval.
11:03:54 Okay, Well, you're on notice I reserve the right ask questions on those
topics.
11:03:59 If I don't hear any phone address. Okay, alright thank you, Ms.
11:04:04 Kaylor. Now I will turn to Ms.
11:04:06 Erlichman and the oh, Miss Taylor, does that conclude the staff, or I mean
the applicant response so far to the conditional use?
11:04:16 Permit application. I did, your honor. It is a comment letter from Miss
Hans Kathy Pines, and it appears to be her comments.
11:04:31 I just wanted to acknowledge that we did receive an additional written
comment from his hinds.
11:04:35 I don't know if he would like her to address it at this hearing at this
time.
11:04:40 I'll accept it if you would transmit that to the app that team.
11:04:44 And So if they wanna supplement their C up process responses today, they
can.
11:04:50 And did you receive Mr. Malins? Yet I have not, Mr.
11:04:55 Mayla, If you would promptly transmit it to Miss Hunt.
11:04:58 We'll accept that into the record your that is your written statement that
you read from today. and if the kane egg or conig representative is online.
11:05:05 If they could transmit that to Miss Hunt today. That would be much
appreciated, too.
11:05:10 And Miss Hunt. If you do receive that, please. you can quote of order.
11:05:14 You can let me know that you perceived it okay, Mr.
11:05:18 Siddles? you don't usually have your video on but you do.
11:05:21 Is there something? Did you have a procedural issue before?
11:05:23 I turned to the staff to provide the responses
11:05:32 Well, it's a different name that I heard sorry I don't know why.
11:05:34 Oh, I know why she She was the one that we were gonna have a minute ago.
11:05:37 But then, like we could get her by phone, she everyone else you got right
with the written stuff.
11:05:43 Yeah, I got you Ms: Rothki if you're online?
11:05:47 Would you turn on your video? i'm not seeing them this is muted?
11:05:54 Yeah, Ms. rothy I don't see you here there's a Francis, I think that's her
can you hear me.
11:06:03 Can you hear me now? I see no francis but I see a three‐six. so, and i'm
not gonna read that person's number out loud.
11:06:09 So it appears on the record. would you be those rafting? Yes.
11:06:14 Can you hear me? I can do You have video today, or you just have audio
11:06:26 It's Francis F. R. a N. C. E. S.
11:06:30 Last name is Rosky R. A. W. S. K. I. R.
11:06:36 Aw S. K. I. Okay, and ms roski I limited everybody's public comments into
more than 3 min, if at all possible.
11:06:46 Do you swear, or first testimony you're about to give today will be the
truth.
11:06:49 The whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I do, hey? My name is Francis
Rosky.
11:06:58 I am a concern, citizen that lives within the private large rural
residential community on Egor Ridge Drive located 2 tenths of a mile from the
proposed commercial Development and Mr. Oski if you would
11:07:15 you know the audio on the computer in front of you or something, because
we're getting feedback talk.
11:07:19 And we hear you said
11:07:27 Okay, Can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you go ahead Okay, I would like
to refer to the Jccc.
11:07:44 18.4 point 5, 3. Oh, the county can't approve and see you up. only if the
criteria is satisfied.
11:08:01 Existing, intent character.
11:08:02 Existing intent, character and quality to the development in the Pacific.
11:08:06 The character and appearance that are, there are no other buildings.
11:08:12 Residential housing, commercial development, or development that is even
close to the appearance that is presented for this development.
11:08:25 This development is built with glass as a majority of the structure which
creates conflict by itself As to glare danglars to wildlife, The appearance is of
the
11:08:46 Design, character, or appearance in a residential, and will have an
adverse impact on the rural character of qualifying the factor to deny the project.
11:09:01 Adequate infrastructure. In reviewing, I did not see any fire protection
other than consideration for one fire hydrant.
11:09:12 This is not sufficient
11:09:20 Fire that would spread from this surrounding area for the development of
this guide.
11:09:28 Okay, I would see
11:09:37 Purely detrimental. I think right
11:09:46 Really detrimental, and that and I think and Staff identified those in
their report, which was Ms.
11:09:58 Roski you could elevate your voice a little bit.
11:10:00 It's hard to hear you you're talking in a soft tone, and
11:10:13 Sorry here. Okay. The staff identified several areas that would be
materially detrimental, and that's noise smoke dust fumes vibrations, odors, and
other conditions
11:10:32 I'd like to point out the increase of noise level of gathering of 50
people outdoors in a rural open space.
11:10:38 Okay, where sound travels for miles, this would create a certainly an
environmental concern in our quiet and peaceful community.
11:10:54 For our sleep, and in our peaceable community up here.
11:11:08 No.
11:11:08 No The development proposes outdoor firepoint gatherings
11:11:23 Arrival of residential firepit activity maybe once a month, and that's
being generous.
11:11:29 A commercial development is marketing this activity on a daily basis.
11:11:36 And multiple times a day does. the generation of additional traffic and
delivery of products of this business will add significant amount of dust in the
residential housing developments, fumes The additional mission from cars and
traffic will cause
11:11:55 to present bad air quality odors. The diesel fumes and gasoline tunes are
not present in our existing residential community to the level that this
11:12:14 Residential development will create this commercial development. The lines
and the commercial area where noise, delivery trucks, waste disposal traffic, large
groups gathered for outdoor activities, not in a quiet peaceful rural
11:12:36 residential area where residents have enjoyed their natural environment
for years.
11:12:47 Josky, or you're facing 5 min here could you wrap up your comments,
please.
11:12:53 I will thank you. Thank you for giving me the consideration, and thank
you, Ms.
11:12:58 Rosky, for i'm sorry you had difficulty signing in earlier.
11:13:02 All right. Miss Katie will give the app and an opportunity to supplement
your response.
11:13:08 If you choose to, based on the additional public comment that we just
received, and Ms.
11:13:14 Roski get mute on your phone You're.
11:13:18 Welcome to stay on everything. But if you would please turn off your phone
or your microphone.
11:13:26 Okay, So I'm, i'm not going to be able to continue with the rest of this.
11:13:30 I'm done them. Yes, I thought you were done and I told you 3 min.
11:13:37 I thought you were finished. Couple other comments that I can add them
would be fantastic if you would move forward quickly.
11:13:47 I held everybody else to a time limit and i'm asking you to do the same.
11:13:52 So if you're quick i'll try and be as quick as I can.
11:13:57 The other issue in the Cup. what the airport Jefferson, counting
international Airport, is approximately 4 miles from the proposed commercial
development.
11:14:13 The a airplanes having a daily fight pattern that flies over this area.
11:14:19 The glare from the glass of the structure of the commercial billet.
11:14:25 Development may compromise safety, the airplane flights and patterns over
this area.
11:14:33 And lastly, would be they're in values the merit and value of the is in
question. but the existing like businesses, are continuously to put heads in bed as
described by ltap funds.
11:14:52 They cannot find people to employ or to retain their employees it's
existing like businesses that have existed in our community.
11:15:03 For many years are not able to attract people to keep the their facilities
full of gases.
11:15:09 The employee, and please give me a logical expectation how this commercial
development will be successful when the long‐standing businesses are struggling
financially to continue to keep their businesses. open.
11:15:25 The business plan, as submitted, does not show anything unusual to be
successful in our community.
11:15:34 This plan is relying on one time gas from out of the area.
11:15:38 A business cannot be successful without the support of the local
community.
11:15:44 The submission from the community and opposition to this commercial
development.
11:15:50 Business will not be supported by the community. Thank you, Ms.
11:15:54 Rosky, that remarks. i've given you way more time than everybody else, and
I want to be respectful of others who divided by the time on it.
11:16:03 So thank you for your comments. Go, please turn your Thank you for being
here today.
11:16:08 Ms Kaylor additional response you'd like to buy Mr.
11:16:15 Examer. Just briefly I heard noise mentioned and again we're deferring
response on noise to the sepa component of this hearing.
11:16:24 With regard to fire protection, I would draw the examiner's attention to
exhibit 53 condition 23, which has fire control measures relating to the fire pit
with regard to the comment on community character and
11:16:46 specifically the airport and potential impact on airplanes.
11:16:52 Exhibit 53 page, 22 notes.
11:16:56 This is a a 2 story building, and and then Mr.
11:17:01 Examiner, just circling back to your earlier comment with regard to the
shoreline erosion.
11:17:09 The geotechnical report which is exhibit 62, and also a staff report
proposed condition that's exhibit 53 condition.
11:17:20 Number 12 do address those issues. So I just wanted to draw your attention
to this.
11:17:26 Thank you.
11:17:31 Thank you, Ms. Kaylor. Appreciate that. alright.
11:17:35 That would be an opportunity for the staff team to respond to any public
comments that we've received.
11:17:40 So. Is there like been Miss Hunt? How would you all like to move forward
with your responses?
11:17:46 I think Miss Hunt will provide a brief response on behalf of the staff.
11:17:53 Thank you and Miss Hunt you remain under Oath I'll Turn to you and let you
respond.
11:18:02 Alright, this is Miss Hunt speaking so so far I can cur with everything
that Ms.
11:18:08 Courtney has had to say in regards to our response, and the references in
the DCD staff report.
11:18:16 So to start off, or would like to say in regards to the airports. This is
not an airport overlay area, according to the Jefferson County code, Additional
regulations and review requirements are applicable to development in an airport
11:18:31 overlay. This project has been reviewed to see if there is an airport
overlay overhead, and there is not so.
11:18:38 Therefore we did not require further review of airport impacts in regards
to the materials of the building, which is supposed to be a class window structure
with wood sightings.
11:18:51 This building is set back several 100 feet from adjacent property lines,
and the property is heavily forested with mature trees.
11:19:02 And I actually I have a list of trees here i'll come back to that, if it's
brought up again during the Cbo appeal.
11:19:08 But these mature trees at their you know, final heights is like 50 to 200
feet tall.
11:19:15 So with these heavily forested setbacks, we are not expecting applicants
to be able to see this building from property lines or from the road.
11:19:25 And again, this building cannot be larger than 35 feet. That is the height
restriction for all buildings in Jefferson County, and so the trees are expected to
screen this building completely.
11:19:37 Okay, and let's see through as regards to the success of the product, real
quick.
11:19:52 I had a question while you were on the subject make it easy for you.
11:19:53 Not that it's a criteria for approval, but it is certainly something
that's of interest to the public members of the public that spoke.
11:20:01 You said that the it's not expected. the project that the building can be
seen from the road, and did you say adjacent properties, or across the street from
the road.
11:20:13 So the North residential property, and the Southern residential property.
11:20:20 The building. So okay, actually, let me pull my measurements. I do have
them on my presentation
11:20:30 Thank you. I just thought it'd be easier for you to clarify
11:21:03 Okay, let's see. Sorry i'm trying to find the specific measurements.
11:21:06 I can go back to the Stafford Port if I do not see them in here.
11:21:23 Okay. So the nearest existing single family residents a lot along Oak Bay
Road is approximately 500 feet from the proposed retreat.
11:21:30 Center proposed caretaker residents is approximately 350 feet from the
nearest single family residents, and both of those are at least a 1,000 feet from
Oak Bay Road.
11:21:42 So you know this is several 100 feet of mature tree stands that range from
50 to 200 feet in hype.
11:21:48 So we're not expecting the public to be able to see structure from their
properties are from the road
11:21:59 And what part of the record did you find that information? So this will be
from?
11:22:05 Exhibit 53, and let me you the page number
11:22:16 Okay, So it's exhibit 53 page 16 of 34.
11:22:23 Thank you. You may proceed. Thank you.
11:22:31 And I'm. looking at the rest of the Comments here in regards to the
question of business success.
11:22:37 Jefferson County, DCD. does not require economic models for consideration
of approval.
11:22:42 So that type of data was not reviewed in conjunction with the conditional
use permit.
11:22:50 And then I i'm gonna move. so I know the applicants. Legal tape has
identified that stormwater and erosion will be discussed during the appeal, but I
would also like to provide some additional comment some shortcut on
11:23:03 the review process. So this is a large stormwater project, and large
stormwater projects require review by the Jefferson County Department of Public
Works.
11:23:13 More specifically their stormwater engineers on staff, and they review
large stormwater projects against minimum requirements.
11:23:21 One through 9 of the stormwater manual for Western Washington.
11:23:25 The 2,019 addition, and in this manual projects are required to have their
strong water managed completely on site.
11:23:35 So Jefferson County, DCD. has recommended approval of the proposed
stormwater bmps, such as full dispersion.
11:23:42 They have identified that that will be feasible in that full dispersion
will manage storm water on site, and that conclusion is included in exhibit.
11:23:57 Gonna pull it up here. Exhibit 17 agencies.
11:24:02 Department comments. Then I can give you the page number 1 s, please.
11:24:15 It'll be page numbers of 9 through real bad that discuss the approval of
the project.
11:24:25 Exit 17 pages 9 through 11. That is correct, and in addition the project
is conditioned to meet those minimum requirements and follow the recommendations of
the Public Works Department and exhibit 53 staff reports in that condition is let
11:24:45 me up for you
11:24:56 Conditions, number 27 and 28 of 43 in exhibit 53
11:25:11 And I would also like to mention that the geologist, professional
geologists from Stratum Group has developed a geological hazard assessment of the
site.
11:25:21 This in analysis of potential landslide and erosion hazard areas.
11:25:27 The geologists has confirmed that the site is not at risk from landslide
or erosion, and the project will not increase the risk of landside or erosion on
site. DCD.
11:25:37 Does not have a professional geologist or license geologist on staff, and
therefore we take stratum groups.
11:25:46 Best professional judgment into consideration in our approval and in that
geological hazard system.
11:25:54 They do say that soils are adequate for full dispersion, which is the
stormwater Bmp.
11:26:01 Chosen? demanded storm Water run off or at least one of them, and they're
saying that it can be it's feasible for the site.
11:26:07 So the soils on the site should be able to infiltrate stormwater runoff
without it, leaving the property 30 Ms. Hun, I think one of the comments had to do
with the potential or for stormwater
11:26:23 to increase landslide or erosion risks downhill and off site.
11:26:30 Do any of the reports you have opine on that topic.
11:26:35 Yes, they do. and let me pull up the specific language for you.
11:26:48 Right. Okay? So and again that 2021 geological hazard assessment, I just
talked about this is exhibit number 9, and I'm going to find the quote that
discusses the risk on and off the site Okay, So this is
11:27:11 on page one of exhibit 9. The more building and access drive onto the
property to assess the upper portion of the property and development of the upper
West.
11:27:22 Part of the property can be accomplished without increasing the risk of
landsides or erosion on or off the site.
11:27:29 As long as the recommendations in the report are followed, and grading and
stormwater for the development area manage in a manner consistent with best
management practices, and with the Western Washington Stormwater manual.
11:27:41 So here they're saying that the development of the site is not expected to
increase the risk of landsides or on or off the site.
11:27:51 So the geologist has acknowledged the risk of other sites.
11:27:56 Exhibit 9, beginning on page one. correct. That is correct.
11:28:00 Thank you.
11:28:09 Okay, so I will move on to the Smp discussion. as many Kaylor has
described.
11:28:18 This property is not in shoreline. Master, excuse me, is not in shoreline
jurisdiction.
11:28:23 The jurisdiction starts 200 first from ordinary high watermark, 200 feet
landward, and we are approximately the road starts approximately 900 feet from
Fugit Sound.
11:28:34 So this site as well outside of this jurisdiction, and so smp regulations
and requirements were not considered for this conditional use.
11:28:42 Permit. In addition, I would like to talk about how critical areas were
reviewed on site more specifically to wetlands and streams.
11:28:55 So with every single project in the county, we first look at our
geographic information maps which has data for wetland streams, do hazard areas.
11:29:06 All of these things, and the Gis maps do not show evidence of wetlands or
streams on the property.
11:29:12 So, just to be thorough. DCD. Staff did decide to
11:29:18 Look at the property, look at where the comforts were located.
11:29:20 In August, the twentieth 21, myself, and the DCD.
11:29:23 Staff biologists went out on the site to meet the applicant.
11:29:26 At that time. Now this was a very dry summer, and we did not see any
evidence of Wetlands or streams coming into the culvert areas at that time, and in
order for DCD.
11:29:39 Staff to require a applicant to consult a biologist.
11:29:43 We need substantial evidence that Strutland, that excuse me, that wetlands
are streams are present on the property, and since we did not see the mapping,
indicating the presence or any onsite indicators, that summer we did
11:29:56 not proceed with requiring a biologist review of the entire property
11:30:17 And that, I believe, is the ending of county response to the public
members Comments today.
11:30:27 Okay, because the applicant bears the burden of proof on the cup.
11:30:33 The condition. use permit application? Oh, Missouri, when I see your video
went live, did you have anything else on behalf of the staff that you would like to
offer?
11:30:39 By way of response, Yeah, I just like to ask Amanda to.
11:30:46 Maybe talk a little bit about What happened when we did go back and after
Wetlands were found.
11:30:55 What happened at that point just to keep that record straight.
11:31:05 This out. Yes, so and on May fourth we did receive a habitat. I think it's
called either summary or assessment memorandum for Wetland, Llc.
11:31:15 They did indicate the presence of Wetlands on the Southern property to the
subject property.
11:31:22 And so that was when the peering was postponed is was for the applicant to
be given the opportunity to submit a full delineation to see how many wetlands are
in the area or on the property so in
11:31:35 July the applicants hired byologists met with the Jefferson County, Dcds.
11:31:43 Staff by biologist on site. they discussed their preliminary findings.
11:31:48 If we agree with what the applicants biologist has determined and based on
our recommendations for what needs to be included in the Wetland delineation
report, the applicant had listened to our recommendations and submitted that final
11:32:03 report in August to describe a full wetland delineation of the site
11:32:18 Is there anybody else you want to recognize to respond to on behalf of the
County staff?
11:32:22 Not at this time. Okay. alright, that concludes the county Staff's
response to public comments and the conditional use permit application reserving
the right to address topics addressed in the Sepa appeal as
11:32:36 Kaylor based on the county staff's responses?
11:32:41 Does the app have any additional information you want to provide regarding
the conditional use?
11:32:46 Permit application response I appreciate Miss Hunts response, and in her
discussion of the staff report I realized I did a admit to mention one additional
condition relating to the lighting glare issue which is condition number 6 in the
11:33:05 staff report that contains, mitigation measures with regard to light and
glare.
11:33:11 But other than that. we have nothing further to add at this time.
11:33:14 Okay, Alright and I, Miss Hunt, Have you received any additional written
comments, or did I ask people to transmit to you now?
11:33:25 Yes, we have It was the original comment from Miss Heines, and then we
also received a written comment from Mr.
11:33:33 Mullen for mainland. Excuse me, thank you very much, and I believe there
might have been one from the
11:33:42 Conig or painting people that you may receive by into business.
11:33:44 That comes in early. I didn't see him online. If you would just at some
point let me know with the point of order when it's logical to let me know if you
did get that okay, your hands yes, I also just saw
11:33:57 that additional comment was received from Francis rusky and so i'll be
sending that to the team right now to the output team and to the staff people, and
if you all have any additional response.
11:34:11 You're gonna let me know i'll let you do that later on in the record here
today.
11:34:18 Okay, So that concludes the conditional use permit portion of the
consolidated hearing of.
11:34:26 Now is the time to move on to the secret appeal.
11:34:29 Part of the hearing and the under the sepa appeal. the appellate bears the
burden approved.
11:34:37 So the appellate representatives and witnesses will go first.
11:34:39 Then the applicant county folks will be given a chance to offer witnesses
and exhibits in response to that.
11:34:47 And again, because the developers divert a proof they will have the last
word on the appeal matter of as his mid mentioned before.
11:34:57 My strong preferences that witnesses are called one time, and not multiple
times, except for good cause and for for rebuttal purposes and things of that sort.
I want to come in council for all parties of record in working together to come
11:35:10 together today, and having shared your exhibit list, disclosing your
potential witnesses experts that might be called the subject matter they might
cover, and any reports that they hope to present as part of the evidence in the
record today.
11:35:24 I want to thank you all for your The civility you demonstrated, and the
professionalism with which you all have conducted yourself.
11:35:33 Outside the hearing record to get to this point today.
11:35:36 I note for the record that it is 1135 I'm happy to begin with, the pellets
first witness Mr.
11:35:44 Sidel that's up to you if you would like to do an opening.
11:35:46 Now. But if you'd rather us take maybe a 30 or a 45 min lunch break, i'm
okay with that, that I'm probably gonna take a half hour or a little bit longer,
break if folks need to take a lunch
11:35:59 break, but i'd rather keep going. if we could so if you're prepared to
make any opening statement, and call your first witness that you think might not
take too long, and then maybe when they're done, we'll take our lunch
11:36:10 break if that's a logical break. Yes, Mr. examiner and I'd like a later
lunch, if possible.
11:36:16 One of my experts is not available from new to 1 30, so the other one of
my experts becomes available at 2 o'clock, so like the later, the better for me 1 h
break or it be a half
11:36:31 hour 45 min. So okay. Well, so I think what i'll do, then is i'll put my
lay witnesses on now.
11:36:39 I'll put my wetlands witness on now and that should take us to lunch, you
know CEO we'll see how it goes.
11:36:47 I'll i'll start with delay ones i'll tell you that al alright, and so for
purposes of procedure here for people who are not lawyers who are online in the
sepo appeal
11:36:59 all witnesses called or all people who testify today will only be
witnesses that are called by the Council for the respective parties.
11:37:08 So this is not an all‐comers get to speak.
11:37:10 Whoever wants to. This is only people for people who are recognized by
council to speak of, and anybody that does offer testimony as part of the Cpa
appeal is subject to cross‐examination by any representative of the
11:37:22 other party, so just let you all know that all right.
11:37:27 So, Mr. sidel's who would your first witness be or did you want to make a
brief opening statement and just for the record?
11:37:32 I want to let you know that I have a hard copy. of your second notice of
appeal, which was the revised appeal based on the revised secret threshold
determination.
11:37:44 And that's the basis for the appeal
11:37:49 I'll start with a short opening step, and Mr. Examiner just to
11:37:54 You kind of orient you a little bit we'll be putting on expert testimony
on 3 issues.
11:37:59 Wetlands traffic noise. those are not the only environmental issues.
11:38:05 So I will put on a couple of lay witnesses delay witnesses are, you know
it's subject matter you've heard before.
11:38:11 It's going to be you know light and glare the main thing.
11:38:16 I want to to. to get across to you, Mr. Examiner, is the personal impact
that that the project will have on these people.
11:38:21 So when we're talking about you know noise for example it's not just in
the abstract, it's a specific property, a specific location.
11:38:29 Same goes for traffic. so the way I would characterize
11:38:39 The 3 issues where we do have experts, you know, wetlands, traffic and
noise.
11:38:45 There are aspects of those issues that the county has not considered at
all, so that right there is grounds to send the Dns back to them with instructions
to think about this stuff.
11:38:55 Hey? noise is a bigger deal than you realized. You know the appellants
have done a noise study.
11:39:01 You need to do one yourself. you know. Same same for traffic.
11:39:06 With regards to Wetlands of course they do have a study.
11:39:09 But as we'll hear the the study is factually around us in 2 regards
11:39:18 Those are the Wetland typing for Wetland, A.
11:39:20 And wetland e are both mistaken. in reality. those are both category.
11:39:24 3 wetlands with much larger buffers, buffers that are large enough to
actually require a redesign of some components of the project at a minimum.
11:39:34 The driveway at septic field and also the parking area.
11:39:39 So That's that's the testimony that you're gonna hear in just a moment.
11:39:46 My first witness will be Miss terry ross and She'll give us an intro to
the group, and where everybody lives.
11:39:51 These are, you'll recognize the names, Mr. examiner because you heard him
during public testimony.
11:39:55 But you know It's so short I want to show you where these things are.
11:39:58 So, Terry, are you ready? Okay, and do I have screen sharing powers?
11:40:04 So let's see you're already under oath.
11:40:09 Okay, so. that's recidals when you call folks just remind me if they're
not already under oath, and i'll do so.
11:40:14 Okay, and just so folks know who's on deck i'll be calling francis after
this and then Kathleen
11:40:24 So exercise my newfound screen sharing powers i'm going to be calling up
appellant exhibit 8.
11:40:34 This is a Google Earth screenshot. So bear with me while we do this.
11:40:45 Okay, everybody. Is there a Google Earth screenshot on everyone's screen?
11:40:49 Yes, excellent. Okay, And I get the thumbs up from our examiner.
11:40:56 All right. So Terry, do you see? up north here, where it says Eagle Ridge
Road?
11:41:01 Yes, and if you walk down south on Oak Bay Road, you see Oak Bay Road
there.
11:41:07 Yes, didn't we come to this unnamed driveway heading eastward towards the
water.
11:41:13 Do you see that? Is that your driveway? Yes, my driveways?
11:41:27 Where's your house there's a guest house right where you are now
11:41:38 My main helm is your main home the gray roofed house.
11:41:43 No, that's my indoor tennis court Where is your main home further to right
there, right on the water.
11:41:52 Okay, and across Oak Bay road. to the west there's this large forested
area.
11:42:01 Do you see that Is that the project area? Yes, okay.
11:42:07 And to the south of the force area there's a small complex of buildings
with grey roofs.
11:42:12 Do you see that? Yeah, I believe that's Kathleen's Kathleen Heines Okay,
is Catholic hinds the neighbor to the south of the property Okay, and I see a
little tiny almost looks
11:42:25 like a trailer in a clearing here to the North of the subject property.
11:42:28 Do you know who's there? Jennifer Russell and can you indicate to me
approximately where the coatings live they live further South from kathleen and
11:42:43 finally, can you tell me where Francis Rowski lives?
11:42:48 The up on eagle ridge drive the complex she's up at the top by the
roadside and drive alright. So of the group members we've heard Is it fair to say
that you to the east of oak
11:43:07 Bay road, and Kathleen Hines to the south of the property are the ones who
live closest to the Pomona woods.
11:43:15 Project. also write down from my tennis court is Chris Mailen. Chris
Mayland.
11:43:24 By this large grassy field? No, where the houses are Okay, Thanks.
11:43:30 I appreciate that orientation. Can you tell me?
11:43:35 You know what is the Oak Vay Concerned Citizens Group?
11:43:40 Well, when we first found out about this project going on we didn't, we
only had a 5 days, or so to read what was going on.
11:43:52 We got about a 100 people involved up and down Oak Bay Road and on in
different Ludlow that were very concerned about a commercial entity going in a
totally residential area.
11:44:08 As I said before, 8 miles about bay road of no other commercial
businesses.
11:44:18 And this was concerning to us because we didn't want obey road turning
into you. know I pave Paradise, and like a song.
11:44:31 But we got together, and we've had quite a few people comments.
11:44:38 I saw that they that Amanda said there was 29 comments which I would
probably think might not be right, because I know over a 100 people send in
comments very concerned about the traffic.
11:44:54 The noise. obey. Already is people drive faster than 50 miles an hour, and
11:45:02 I have trouble getting out of my driveway. as I said before cause it's
it's got an elevation that I have to come up all to the road, and now there's a
driveway directly across from me and we were
11:45:15 just you know concerned about what the building looks like it doesn't seem
to be harmonious with the area and
11:45:26 The project itself there's you know so many other people that have
businesses that can't support or does don't ever get corporate people to come to
this area and it's for bloodload doesn't and thank you
11:45:45 terry i'd like to move on to issues specific to your property, as I
understand the single issue that affects you the most Is traffic.
11:45:57 Is that correct? Yeah. or the stormwater, because it all comes down
already from that property.
11:46:03 And now that the property to the West of her has All been clear cut it's
going to be more once the rainy season starts and so how does storm water coming
off the Pomona woods property.
11:46:18 Affect you. Well, it already comes across the street and comes down
through my tennis cord and through a canyon that goes down to the water.
11:46:29 So I I have the same kind of erosion that Gordon, James, and Chris Melen
has. alright.
11:46:37 And do you? if she has a driveway the same right across from my driveway?
11:46:45 And how does water coming onto your property affect you and your property?
11:46:49 Well, it roads the the driveway that i've put in the all of the
surrounding areas of my my forest, and And are those are those impacts that you are
already experiencing.
11:47:10 Now not as much right now, because it's summertime, and it's dry.
11:47:15 But I have in the past, and our rainy seasons had a lot of erosion and
bank deterioration.
11:47:24 And do you believe that new roads and new impervious surfaces associated
with kimona woods will increase the runoff onto your property?
11:47:30 Oh, absolutely it's, just gonna all run I mean I know it runs down an
asphalt to driveway versus a gravel driveway, and it just all it all comes
downhill.
11:47:43 I'd like to move on to the traffic issue i'll be calling up some
photographs that you provided me for example, while you're speaking, the Google
Earth image What exhibit number was that so that was appellant
11:48:01 exhibit 8 thank you and these photographs i'm about to show are appellant
exhibit 5 the way we did appellate exhibit 5 it's.
11:48:13 These 5 standalone images. but they're all part of appellant. exhibit 5,
So i'll be calling those up onto my screen in thanks.
11:48:20 You know, about 5 s here just helps keep track of things.
11:48:24 If you let me know what exhibit it is and while you're doing that?
11:48:33 Ms Ross, if you don't mind the address on your parcels on obey what number
is that?
11:48:41 Well, I have I have 17 acres. Here 1 one is 2, 9, 7 one which is my
primary residence, and that's an obey road address. Right? Oh, hey?
11:48:55 Road. Yes, that's all I need to that's Okay, alright, are we ready for
photos?
11:49:03 Okay, Am I, indeed? photograph of a driveway right now on your screens.
11:49:09 Excellent So, Ms. Ross, what are we looking at right now here in
appellant?
11:49:15 Exhibit 5 i'm standing on my driveway right next to my mailbox, and across
the street is Kimona.
11:49:29 Woods is cut in that they did which I don't know it.
11:49:33 Doesn't go any further than that, and scholars had had a tough time
cutting it in because to the left of that little tree.
11:49:45 There was a lot of water, so I know the guys that cut it in. And so I
asked him why they were putting it right across from mine, and they said that was
the only place they could put it without moving It is it your understanding that
this cut in will one day become the driveway for the pomona woods
11:50:03 hotel i'm assuming so I don't know anything different.
11:50:07 Is that there's not one driveway on obey road that is, directly across
from another.
11:50:13 Okay, let's do the next photograph that's too similar.
11:50:19 And so here's a somewhat blurry photograph.
11:50:22 This is the third photograph within a pellet exhibit 5.
11:50:23 What are we looking at here? that's the apron of my driveway?
11:50:30 And so you can see that I come up and I have to come up a little hill in
order to look both ways.
11:50:37 So i'm almost at the roadside at the road line in order to be able to look
at oncoming traffic?
11:50:47 Do you have to kind of stick your car out, you know, closer to traffic in
order to see?
11:50:53 Yeah, especially when the Pomona woods had their contour and everything on
my apron.
11:51:01 I could hardly see to get out the image I'm looking at here is looking to
the West right from the Pomono Woods property.
11:51:13 It's looking immediately west towards your property it is it's looking
east. and then I see that there's a drop off That must happen from the road to
access down towards what is your drive.
11:51:27 Correct? yeah that's my driveway let's see the next one.
11:51:35 Alright here's what we're looking at here. This is the fourth photo within
a pellet. Exhibit 5.
11:51:41 That's someone coming out of my driveway and truck going by.
11:51:47 I I didn't take this picture so I don't know who did take it.
11:51:51 I don't know it might have been one of the traffic guy our expert, all
right.
11:51:58 We'll we'll We'll, authenticate the photographer here. Mr.
11:52:02 Examiner put on the traffic expert Yeah, That's how far I have to come up
in order to see.
11:52:09 So if there's cars or you recognize that as illustrating your driveway
approach on the road.
11:52:18 And what about this picture makes you Think that's your driveway approach,
and that's what they wrote my drive my mailbox.
11:52:26 2, 9, 7. One is right there in the left side of the picture.
11:52:29 Alright, you don't need to call somebody else to authenticate that photo,
Mr.
11:52:31 Sidel's she knows i've been there for 26 years.
11:52:44 So is this illustrating the problem that you talked about how how the the
traffic comes up whipping by when you're trying to get out of your driveway?
11:52:52 Yes, you know somebody's trying to turn left into Pomona woods.
11:52:58 People are gonna go around and go on my side of the road.
11:53:04 Alright that's it for our photos how will having the Pomona woods driveway
directly across the street from your driveway.
11:53:15 Exacerbate. this this site line problem that you've talked about well with
people turning in to Pamona would say, coming from the south, people coming from
the north are going to go around there There's no turn lane to get
11:53:35 into her driveway. So it's it's gonna cause congestion there every time
somebody's going in or coming out either North or South, people are gonna start
going around and you're gonna have to you know look both ways
11:53:52 all, and sit there for a long time, and it's it's just confusing to have
all of that traffic going in and out. all right.
11:54:03 Thank you, Miss Ross. No further questions. Okay, make sure I'm not muted
to Ms arlich men or Miss Kaylor, that either of you have any questions. Ms.
11:54:14 Ross.
11:54:19 Your honor, I have no questions. Miss Elizabeth are like man alright.
11:54:24 The county has no questions, Ms. Kaylor. and thank you, Mr.
11:54:30 Examiner just looking at my notes. and I do not believe that I have any
questions, either.
11:54:40 Thank you. thank you, Ms. Ross for being here today.
11:54:45 You're welcome to stay online in here but he's else's testimony.
11:54:48 No one else had any questions. so Mr. Sidel who's your next witness
11:55:03 And this, Heinz, if you turn on your video so you'll pop up for everybody.
11:55:08 Okay. Just hang on here
11:55:15 Oh, it says you cannot start your video because the host has disabled it.
11:55:20 Okay, Helena, if we could turn on her video or whoever's got that room
control I see you now.
11:55:29 And Miss Heinzer remind you, remain under oath.
11:55:31 So Mr. Sidel is gonna ask you some questions. and then the attorneys for
the other parties have a right cross‐examined you.
11:55:38 Okay, Mr. Ms. Hans did you hear Ms Ross's testimony just now.
11:55:44 Yes, did she correctly identify where you live in relation to the project?
11:55:56 I'm sorry you just broke up Oh, perhaps the problem was on my end.
11:55:59 Did Miss Ross? I correctly identify where, where your property is in
relation to the Pomona Woods property.
11:56:13 My property is to the south of the proposed building site.
11:56:22 Are you? How How far to the south
11:56:32 Alex. She has trouble with Wi‐fi up there.
11:56:41 Maybe could she call him by phone with that Yeah.
11:56:45 Ask her. She can call, Okay, Kathleen, Can you call in by phone?
11:56:53 Is that
11:57:01 Why don't we Why, don't we pause with his hinds for now we'll have her
call in by phone, and maybe that will be better and we'll do francis Rowski
11:57:11 while we wait for that Kathleen in the email that I sent you with the Zoom
invitation.
11:57:17 There should be a phone number for call‐ins let's let's get you off the
computer and see if we can call in by phone, please.
11:57:26 Okay, do you Wanna proceed with Francis while I do this exactly.
11:57:31 And Miss Heinz, I just have to ask it as soon as you get your telephone
call to get through, please.
11:57:37 And go ahead and mute your zoom. thing right now? otherwise we're gonna
get terrible feedback.
11:57:45 So who's your next witness, Mr. sidel's and please stop your video as
well.
11:57:50 Ms. Heines Mr. Sidel who's your next witness, Francis Rowski, will be my
next witness, and Ms.
11:58:01 Rowski? Was she just by telephone and not with video?
11:58:03 Or does she have video now? When she spoke in public she was just by
phone, I don't know what her current status is
11:58:15 Phone. Only please, All right, Miss rowski your main under oath, and I'm
getting feedback.
11:58:23 It sounds like you've got another microphone or something on behind you or
speaker.
11:58:27 If you could turn that all the way down and rely on your telephone to hear
us, cause we're hearing feedback.
11:58:33 Well still here again and that's not coming from my computer titles.
11:58:39 It's the telephone Listing to somebody's computer I'm hearing it, too, Mr.
11:58:45 Examiner. Miss Rowski, did those instructions make sense, please?
11:58:48 Mute. All devices except for your phone
11:58:54 Did that help Did that help if you would turn off the speaker on your
computer. I think your ipad or something. And just listen to the audio that's
coming through your phone I think that worked can you count for
11:59:12 for me. Can you hear me? Can you count 2, 4, please?
11:59:19 1, 2, 3, 4, perfect. There's no Feedback all right Ms. Rowski. Mr.
11:59:26 Sidel will ask you some questions now, and when he's done asking you
questions. Ms.
11:59:31 Kaylor and M. Missouri. men can ask you questions, too, and Miss Mr.
11:59:35 Sidel will have a chance. follow up if he needs to.
11:59:38 So you remain under oath, Mr. Sidel. You may pose your questions.
11:59:41 Thank you, Miss Rosky. all. Where do you live? in relation to the Pomona
Woods property?
11:59:48 I live approximately 2 tenths of a mile I believe that's north of the
property.
11:59:56 Okay, Were you present for the testimony by Miss Amanda Hunt this morning?
12:00:07 Yes. Did you hurt? Do you hear her?
12:00:13 Ms. Russell. Sorry I did not hear what Sorry, Miss Rowski, Did you hear
Amanda Hunt talking this morning?
12:00:26 I did not hear all of her conversation. Did you hear the portion of her
conversation where she talked about the fifty‐foot vegetation buffer around Pomona
Woods?
12:00:40 I did not. Are you aware of a condition in the staff report that requires
a fifty‐foot landscape buffer around the Pomona woods property?
12:01:03 Do you believe that the 50 foot landscape buffer will be sufficient to
prevent light and glare from being visible at night?
12:01:18 I do not. Why? Because of the the glare from the glass.
12:01:27 And where it is located. And now, with the logging behind the property,
everybody on our and well, our house at the end of the project is completely
exposed. now.
12:01:47 Even though we do all have trees around our property. even though she's
planning on leaving trees around her property.
12:01:57 It's still going to be exposed and and do you believe that the the light
from her property, the outdoor lighting from her property will be visible at night.
12:02:11 I do believe it will. we all have lights.
12:02:21 Dim lights in our our areas. not all of the houses that some of them do,
and they're they're visible.
12:02:29 And I probably on my property, have the most trees surrounding my
property, and I still have them.
12:02:37 The dim lights on the house that show. Is it your understanding that the
lights from the Pomona woods project will be brighter than the dim lights on the
existing houses in your neighborhood?
12:02:50 And do you believe that that will lead to a a worse light and light impact
on your property?
12:03:03 It's certainly going to change the dynamics of our property, because in
past we only had trees. And now there's going to be light and clear from this
development
12:03:22 What measures do you believe, would be effective in preventing light and
glare from this property?
12:03:29 From this development
12:03:42 It, I think probably lesser lighting not as bright lighting.
12:03:50 And then a future buffer that would protect and surround that property.
12:03:59 For many reasons to do not only keep z light and glare down, but also to
contain the noise level that will spread from that development to our development.
12:04:16 Tell me about the noise levels. in your neighborhood under existing
conditions.
12:04:27 The the noise level. Now we live in a very quiet serene We're a sleeper
community.
12:04:38 Retirement community. basically. the majority of us are retired here.
12:04:46 We have 2 residents per home and several of the soaks here are in bed by 6
or 7 o'clock at night.
12:04:59 So our noise level is very, very low.
12:05:08 And do you believe that the Pomona Woods project will introduce new types
of noise and new levels of noise to your neighborhood?
12:05:17 I do, and the reason for that is, you go from, Do 2 people, 50 people
outside the noise level is going to increase from 8 people to 55 people
12:05:42 The go ahead. No You please. continue and with having the outdoor
recreation, and and the in the report you're gonna have people out by fire.
12:05:59 Kids. You're gonna have people stargazing people walking and the noise of
all of those activities.
12:06:10 Will be directly in our back door or our front door, if you will.
12:06:12 Either way. What about noise from mechanical equipment, such as kitchen,
exhaust fans or air conditioning units?
12:06:21 Does that type of noise exist in your neighborhood today?
12:06:30 You know ours are. Is there not commercials or residential development?
12:06:35 We do not Have commercial exhaust fans, and all of that noise is going to
come right through the fronts of our property, and probably the back as well.
12:06:51 On a day when over on Beaver Valley, Z. Winery over there has an outdoor
event and not amplified.
12:07:00 We hear people talking over there in our property so and that's much
further than to 2 tenths of a mile from our property.
12:07:11 Okay.
12:07:23 Alright, Thank you. Ms. Rosky. no further questions.
12:07:27 Okay, does the County or Apple Council have any? Do you either of you have
any questions, your honor?
12:07:37 The county has no questions, and to the Advocates Council, Ms.
12:07:42 Kaylor. I just very briefly thank you Ms. Rosky. Hello, I'm Courtney
Keith, representing the applicant, and I have just one or 2 questions for you
initially on your your
12:07:59 noise testimony. you're you're simply testifying as a a neighbor, correct
you're you're not.
12:08:07 You don't have any particular expertise in noise analysis am I right about
that.
12:08:12 That's correct. you testified about 55 people.
12:08:20 Do you, believes that there will be 55 guests at the Retreat Center?
12:08:30 Well, if you have 24 rooms and there's generally double occupancy plus,
you have the
12:08:39 The housing and workers and groundkeepers. to keep the development going.
12:08:44 I do believe It's going to be in the numbers of 65, and so that 55 number
is based on an assumption of 24 rooms, all with double occupancy.
12:08:55 Is that right
12:08:58 Well, part part of that is, and then the other is with the
12:09:04 The workers that are going to be there to take care of the grounds.
12:09:13 And your the caretaker facility and the kitchen staff, laundry
12:09:22 Thank you. and and similarly with regard to to lighting. Do I understand
that your testimony is is as un neighbor?
12:09:35 But you don't have any particular expertise in in lighting analysis?
12:09:43 Am I understanding that right? Correct? Okay. Thank you very much. based
on it on what we experienced here in our community.
12:09:58 Alright, I have no further questions for you thank you Okay, Mr. Sidel's.
12:10:03 Do you have any redirect for Miss Rowski and Miss Rusky?
12:10:07 I think, what Miss Kaylor was getting at is there is a permit condition
that there's to be only 35 guests, not, you know, 48 guests.
12:10:15 If we assume 35 guests instead of 48.
12:10:18 Does that address? the level of noise increase that you anticipate
12:10:28 Whether it be 35, or 55. The The noise level is certainly going to
increase up here in our neighborhood when our neighbors is basically quiet,
everybody that comes up to visit always comments on how quiet and peacefully it is
up here.
12:10:46 Thank you no further questions, Thank you. Miss Rowski.
12:10:50 Appreciate you being here today, Your excused, unless you want to watch
her.
12:10:54 Listen to the rest of the hearing. You can turn off your telephone or
speaker. and Mr.
12:10:59 Sidel, who's your next witness well we were gonna try again with Miss
Hans, will be my last lay witness this afternoon.
12:11:13 But they're on mute but I think That's a good wi‐fi connection that Ms
Ross had.
12:11:19 So as Ross, you turn on the microphone and Miss Hines, I believe that you
seated there, would you wave your hands so?
12:11:24 I know what you yep all right i'm assigned you remain under oath, and
thank you for relocating yourself.
12:11:29 So you have a stable Internet connection Mr. sinel's You've called Ms.
12:11:35 Hein. so Miss Hinds you you're gonna be asked question by Mr.
12:11:39 Sidel's and then either bizarre but or Ms. Kaylor can follow up with
anything they have.
12:11:45 So so where we lost you Ms. Heines.
12:11:47 You were just talking about how the existing single family houses have a
lesser degree of outdoor lighting which you can still see.
12:11:56 And then you were comparing that to the amount of lighting that this
commercial facility will have summarized it accurately.
12:12:09 All right. tell me about the existing lighting conditions in the
neighborhood that well as a as of this time during the nighttime hours, it is
virtually pitch dark in our area, unless we have outdoor lights on
12:12:30 ourselves. I can't see any light and do people tend to have outdoor lights
on in this neighborhood.
12:12:38 Not that I can see. Okay. Is it your understanding that the Promota Woods
Hotel will have outdoor lights on?
12:12:48 Yes, both in the lighted pathways and in the building itself, and in the
gathering areas.
12:12:57 Oh, and by the way, i've been calling it a a hotel.
12:12:59 I guess we should call it a a retreat center.
12:13:02 So. I apologize for that. And what will be the effect for you, neighbors,
of having this brighter commercial outdoor lighting Once the thing is built.
12:13:15 Well, we we are ourselves and lists as one of our activities.
12:13:20 Star gazing, and we are ourselves will not be able to do stargazing. She
and I believe she won't be able to do any stargazing activities with that much
light in a you know in an environment that
12:13:32 now is totally dark. What would you take? Go ahead? And also, you know,
just it will affect the general environment of our property.
12:13:45 How so? Because we're used to it you know our our outdoor area, and when
we go out there ourselves to enjoy any kind of activities, it being totally dark,
and that in quiet.
12:13:59 And now there's going to be light leaking through, especially from the
proposed building site, is not as heavily treat in that area as some of the other
areas.
12:14:09 Well, I was just going to ask you. Are you aware of a proposed permit
condition to have a fifty‐foot tree retention buffer around the around the Pomona
Woods property?
12:14:20 I am like to make it clear though that in that area where the flat part of
her property is. It is not very heavily tree between us and them.
12:14:30 There's a lot of low ferns and things like that, and I have a direct sight
line from my yard up into that area.
12:14:36 Are you talking about the south edge of the pomona Woods property?
12:14:42 And you're saying, under existing conditions you can you can see right
through right?
12:14:47 Okay, Is it your belief, then, that once the Retreat center gets built you
will directly see the lights.
12:15:03 I I definitely believe so absolutely, since I can already see up to the
proposed building spot.
12:15:10 I don't know how the lights could be behind me I could not see the lights.
12:15:17 And Does that also mean that Blair, from the glass facade of the building
will be shining towards you during the day.
12:15:24 Yes, and it may seem an obvious question. but do you receive glare from
any other properties at this time?
12:15:31 So this Will this be a new impact for you? Then
12:15:43 You mentioned noise a moment ago. tell me about the existing noise
conditions on your property.
12:15:49 My property as of now, is blissfully quiet. Aside from an occasional
airplane going over my house, there is absolutely no noise.
12:16:01 And do you believe the Pomona Woods property will introduce new types of
noise?
12:16:06 I do, because whenever you have large gatherings, or even I could hear,
when Anne is visiting the property, and has one or 2 people with her, I can hear
their conversations.
12:16:17 So it's What are you talking about Anne Burkhart the developer.
12:16:21 Okay, continue. So it's hard to believe that with gatherings of 35 people.
12:16:25 It's not going to be very intrusive into our backyard other than the sound
of 35 people's voices.
12:16:33 What other types of noise do you anticipate from this project?
12:16:36 I also anticipate noise from first of all there's, the delivery area
scheduled on our side of the property and the delivery area on on the southern end
of where and has the delivery area
12:16:53 slated is over towards our border of our property. Why don't I call up a
site plan pardon me he's gonna call up a site
12:17:12 And
12:17:21 Okay, i'm calling up county exhibit 45 revised site plan should be on
everyone's screen.
12:17:31 Now. Alright, so Miss Hines we've been talking about the South, you know.
portion of the Pomona Woods property.
12:17:43 Now, what? What were you talking about a moment ago with deliveries? Okay.
12:17:48 Well, she has the delivery coming around, to this side of the property
right by the manager's residence, and this will introduce a lot of noise into our
property, because, as you know, anybody who's her delivery trucks first of
12:18:08 all there'll be the driving up the unloading and Then you have the backing
up and beeping, and the people associated with deliveries and all that stuff right
there, close to our property, lines, and just to be clear do
12:18:22 you hear delivery truck noise from any other property anywhere in your
neighborhood?
12:18:28 All right, other than delivery trucks and 35 guests talking.
12:18:32 What other sources of noise do you anticipate?
12:18:34 Well, also any kind of mechanicals like vents heating anything like that?
12:18:46 Pardon me, why would there be mechanical venting going on anywhere on on
the Pomona Woods property?
12:18:51 Well, i'm talking about heat and air conditioning and and kitchen noises,
events, those kind of things.
12:19:04 Yes, a kitchen suitable to serve 35 guests.
12:19:08 Correct laundry facilities, Arrival and departure of guess garbage.
12:19:18 Pick up a lot of these, you know different noise aspects of noise that
will be affecting our property.
12:19:26 How will it affect your quality of life to have these new sources of noise
present?
12:19:32 At the property next door. Well, the whole purpose of us moving to this
area and buying this property was to have peace and quiet, and the whole, that
whole purpose is being negated, because now i'm going to be next to a fairly large
12:19:45 commercial enterprise that will have ongoing noise from if they said 7 am.
12:19:51 To 10 Pm. That certainly is a vast difference from the state we're in now.
12:19:58 Would a smaller project, you know, like a like A, you know B and B scale
project, with only a few guests as opposed to 30.
12:20:06 5 guests. Would Would that tend to reduce the amount of noise impacts that
you anticipate?
12:20:12 Oh, it definitely would. And when I first met Anne burkhart in March of
2,021 that's what she told me they were building, there was a small 3 to 4 bedroom
airbnb and i'm gonna I was
12:20:31 there's been an Objection made So everybody stopped talking. and Miss
Kaylor, your video was done. So I see you.
12:20:48 Now let me turn mine on ms Kaylor I believe i'll sustain that Mr.
12:20:50 Sidel's next question all right I would note Mr.
12:20:54 Examiner that if Miss Burkhart described it one way to the neighbors, and
a different way in her permit application, that would be a statement against her
own interest.
12:21:04 So I would ask you to reconsider and allow that hearsay question as an
exception to the hearsay rule alright, and can you rephrase it?
12:21:10 Did they receive any correspondence, or any writings from the appetite
indicating what they plan to do?
12:21:16 If so, let me see it. You want it in writing, Mr.
12:21:20 Examiner. No, I said, did they receive any correspondence or anything in
writing from the applicant?
12:21:26 Alright. Ms. Heinz. Did you receive anything in red from the applicant?
12:21:38 This was when I initially met her and invited her over to our property, in
which .
12:21:47 Just don't know you here like this all right I'm gonna allow just a brief
question Ms. Miss Hines.
12:21:54 I believe you said you had a conversation with the applicant, and she told
you something.
12:21:59 Of what did you understand the project to be and Miss Kaylor?
12:22:02 You're going to be allowed to ask your client of anything about this, if
you want.
12:22:07 But We're just covered this right now? we'll move on so Miss Hans?
12:22:10 What did you hear? The project was going to be okay originally in March of
2021
12:22:17 I I saw an on her property, invited her over to to introduce ourselves.
12:22:22 My husband was also there, and I was surprised to hear at that time.
12:22:25 That was, she was planning to build a 3 to 4 bedroom.
12:22:29 Airbnb and my husband and I were shocked that even that was happening.
12:22:36 We did not find out till we got the later letter in late August, that it
was actually a 25 room retreat center.
12:22:45 Move on Thank you, Mr. Examiner.
12:23:02 No, I think we've covered it no further questions alright.
12:23:06 Any follow up questions from Miss Kaylor and Missouri
12:23:15 Good morning, I think. Still morning. Oh, no good afternoon Ms. Heinz I'm
Courtney Kayla, representing the applicant, and I just have a couple brief
questions for you the first relates to your
12:23:29 test to any regarding noise and this is the the same question that I asked
your neighbor.
12:23:33 It's my understanding you're testifying as a neighbor but you don't have
any particular expertise in noise analysis.
12:23:41 Is that right? correct, and similarly, with regard to lighting you're
testifying as a neighbor, and don't have any particular expertise in lighting
analysis, Correct?
12:23:56 No correct. Those are all my questions, thank you. Is there any questions
from the county?
12:24:06 Not at this time. we will be addressing some of the issues she brought up
concerning light glare through bringing back Amanda Hunt you don't have any
questions for Biz Hines right Alright, thank you
12:24:20 very much. Mr. Sidel City follow up based on Miss Kaylor's question.
12:24:26 No, sir, and that concludes my lay witnesses. I wonder if now might make
sense for that lunch break, and then we'll do the experts.
12:24:34 I have a little critter to my left who's better than all my arm off,
telling me that would be a good time to take lunch.
12:24:40 So is a half hour sufficient for everybody. Mr.
12:24:46 Examiner before we go, sorry about that.
12:24:54 Go ahead, Miss Kaylor, before we go. if I can ask Mr.
12:24:59 Sydles. What order he intends to call his experts in.
12:25:03 We're trying to address a scheduling issue on our end. Yeah.
12:25:07 And i'm i'm kind of constrained here because my experts have their own
limitations.
12:25:12 So if we're back let's say one o'clock we'll put on wetlands at that time.
12:25:17 My traffic expert becomes available at 1 30 so if We've wrapped up
wetlands in half an hour.
12:25:23 We'll do him at 1 30 otherwise we'll do him a little bit later, 145 or 2
whatever it may be.
12:25:28 Once traffic is done, my noise expert becomes available at 2 o'clock.
12:25:34 So. so. the order will go Wetlands traffic noise, and it has to be that.
12:25:41 Thank you miserly. Any issues? No, thank you. actually 35 min.
12:25:51 If we go to one it. So if we take a lunch break right now, we'll come back
online at one o'clock.
12:25:56 Is it ready? About 35 min? Is that okay?
12:26:00 Hearing no objection. All right I will take us off the record and on break
until one o'clock, and we'll come back for Mr.
13:00:05 It's one o'clock, so if everybody reconfigure themselves and get backed up
on your computer we'll start.
13:00:12 Oh, I guess we started it now. alright looking for ms Erlitman's video
signal.
13:00:21 I don't see it
13:00:27 For some reason it gave me the power to admit her to the waiting room
which I have now done.
13:00:33 That may be because you have the control because you're now calling
witnesses and pulling up slides, alright, I will.
13:00:40 I will use my powers judiciously but I don't see her
13:00:51 If county staff could notudge Is there like once some mouth?
13:00:55 You all have a separately communicate with her and Let her know we're back
on the record.
13:01:02 I see her now. Are you talking about Amanda or Helena?
13:01:09 Oh, either, or this is Amanda hunt sneak and i'm here, Mr.
13:01:15 Hear an examiner. Okay, Could you make sure that here you are, I, Barbara?
13:01:24 I did not see you you're on one too, I don't know why .
13:01:29 All right. So Miss Ms. Kaylor and Mr.
13:01:30 Sidles are all present and accounted. for Okay, and We were continuing the
hearing the sepa appeal presentations.
13:01:39 It's 1 min after one o'clock when we said we'd come back from our lunch
break.
13:01:43 Mr. Cytles, you were in a call a few of your witnesses that you identified
before the lunch break because of their schedule.
13:01:50 So i'm gonna let you move forward unless there's some technical or
procedural issue.
13:01:53 We need to take care of before we start. Well, we did just get a Wetlands
report.
13:02:00 From Ms. Kaylor. looks like it came in about 9 min before my wetland
expert is due to start testifying.
13:02:08 Obviously my Wetlands expert has not had time to review that report in
9 min.
13:02:14 So I don't know we'll see how today. goes. I I do want to give her a
chance to read that report, and rebutt it.
13:02:24 So I guess i'm kind of looking to the examiner for for guidance here. How
should we?
13:02:28 How should we, You know What Mr. cytles is speaking about? what's the
circumstance?
13:02:37 What do we have? Certainly I can provide some background so we received
Mr.
13:02:43 Sidel's wetland experts reports at about 5 30 on Friday, and we had had
some prior communication about that.
13:02:51 So there's no objection to that but of course that didn't provide any time
to do the robot exhibit that we would typically do.
13:03:00 And so, in reviewing that report over the weekend, our Wetland expert put
it her thoughts down in writing. So I out was intending to offer that with our
Wetland experts testimony everything is
13:03:19 directly responsive to the points that are made in Mr. Cytles experts
report.
13:03:27 There's nothing that's not directly responsive I guess what I would say
is, these are the things that are expert would testify to in response with or
without a writtenings of it, I thought it might be helpful both to the
13:03:43 examiner in I mean frankly to Mr. Silos.
13:03:47 I think his experts gonna get a reply opportunity right at some point.
13:03:53 To have it in writing so I I am intending to offer it.
13:03:57 If the examiner excludes it, I I will understand why.
13:04:01 But just by way of explanation that's what it is and I appreciate that.
13:04:10 Thank you for your representation. Mr. sidel's I take Miss Kaylor and word
no reason not to.
13:04:17 So let's move forward through witness if for some reason you believe
there's something in that report that your witness is reviewing, while others
testify that you want to call them after the county, and the app that have provided
their response testimony during
13:04:33 this hearing during your apply portion of the hearing, I will recognize
that as cause for you to recall the person, if you choose to do so, based on things
that might be in that last minute.
13:04:45 Exhibit, so to speak. Does that sound fair? fair enough, Mr.
13:04:49 Examiner. i'll take fair enough thank you very much It's more than you'd
get for most people, sir, and you do have the courtesy of having laid out for you
what that ex what they're
13:05:01 what the applicant expert might be saying so you've got you definitely got
a leg up on that end, so whether you want to cover it now or later.
13:05:08 It's your pleasure. but I will let you recall this person, if you need to.
13:05:13 Solutions with us, so it's our Wetland expert as a matter of fact.
13:05:15 Miss Diane Brewster.
13:05:20 In this, Brewster? I see you've turned on your video How are you today?
13:05:24 I'm doing well, thank you and I can hear you loud and clear. very good,
Miss Brewster.
13:05:29 If you would please raise your hand right hand. do you swear?
13:05:31 Or affirm the testimony you're about to get today will be the truth.
13:05:35 The whole truth and nothing about the truth. I do. And this, Brewster,
have you been online hearing others testify.
13:05:41 Today. I have all right, so you understand Mr. Sidel's. will ask you
questions, and then Miss Kaylor or Ms.
13:05:47 Ericman could ask you questions, and he'll have a chance to follow up with
you.
13:05:50 Okay, Yes, if you hear objection, please stop talking i'll address the
objection of So we don't talk over each other.
13:05:58 So if you hear me her up, please stop whatever You're saying we'll come
back to you all right, Mr.
13:06:02 Siddles, you may proceed with the witness. Alright, thank you, Miss
Brewster.
13:06:08 Will you describe your profession and qualifications, please? Yes, I will.
13:06:13 Here we go, yeah i've been doing Wetland consulting services for the past
30 years I got my college degree bachelor of science from evergreen state college
and I provide the
13:06:34 services for Wetlands and my parent ecosystems provide environmental
documentation and permitting assistance.
13:06:41 I've provided expert testimony regarding Wetland issues, and king and
snowholmish counties.
13:06:50 Regarding wetland delineations and functional performance, assessment,
development, and implementation of cost‐effective.
13:06:59 What linen my period, mitigation, plans, wetland, monitoring, and agency
negotiation.
13:07:06 I have been project manager or lead biologist and support of road
residential, commercial, industrial development in park improvements and
whetherline mitigation, banking problem projects and my clients include in
governmental
13:07:27 agencies, utilities, airports, including the port towns and airport.
13:07:33 Educational institutions, commercial firms, developers, and nonprofit
groups in 10 counties throughout Western Washington, or throughout Washington, 9 in
Western Washington.
13:07:45 Thank you so much. Ms. Brewster. Miss Brewster, Cv.
13:07:49 Is appellant. Exhibit 9. Her written report is appellant. exhibit 10, and
it is specifically about your written report.
13:07:57 Appellant exhibit 10 that I want to ask you this afternoon, Miss Brewster.
13:08:02 Describe the work you did to review the Pomona Woods Critical areas
Report.
13:08:08 So I looked at exhibits 48.
13:08:13 The Cpa checklist exhibit 49.
13:08:16 The critical areas. Reports exhibit free The Upland Restoration Memo for
Promota Woods An Exhibit 53.
13:08:26 The staff report and I. The The documents that I based my decisions on are
the 2,010 regional supplement to the core of Engineers Wetland Delineation Manual
for Western Mountains valleys and
13:08:45 coastal region and the Washington State Wetland rating system for Western
Washington.
13:08:54 The 2,014 update for that dated today. It's It's a a response to your own
exhibit 10.
13:09:09 I assume you have not had a chance to read that report.
13:09:13 No! Would you be available after we get done with Wetlands to read that
report?
13:09:17 This afternoon. and then come back on, and and, you know, give us any
thoughts you may have about it, you know, like later this afternoon, or or frankly
possibly tomorrow.
13:09:27 Sure. later this afternoon would be better. Alright, tomorrow morning I
have meetings all morning.
13:09:37 So. Okay. Well, we will do scheduling issues if that comes up later.
13:09:43 We'll try to give you as much time to read for now, though, let's focus on
the work that you did in producing appellant exhibit tent.
13:09:49 So you just listed the documents that you reviewed
13:09:56 We'll get into the specifics in a moment but just first from from sort of
a broad like overarching perspective.
13:10:03 What problems, if any, did you identify in the critical areas?
13:10:07 Report. So one of them was looking at the rating for Wetland A.
13:10:14 It looks like they used the wrong hydrogemorphic class rating forms.
13:10:19 For that. They rated it as slope wetlands as they did for the other 3
wetlands that they bought
13:10:27 But this one looks like it's a hydrogenomorphic wetland based on how they
described it in their report is not really being on a slope, but being in a
depression other big picture takeaways before we
13:10:48 get to the details S. 3.0 in the rating forms which covers water quality
issues that relate specifically to water quality function.
13:11:06 In the Wetlands this is again from the ecology's, rating form they were
not answered correctly.
13:11:16 There are 3 specific questions that are asked. does the well end discharge
directly within one mile to a stream, river, lake, or marine water?
13:11:24 That is, on the 303 d water quality list is the wetland in a base or sub
basin, or sorry in a basin or sub basin, where an aquatic resource is on the 303 d
list and the third
13:11:37 question is, Has the site been identified in a watershed or local plan for
maintaining water quality?
13:11:46 And on all of those for all of the Wetlands.
13:11:50 They answered, No, but one of the things that the rating form requires is
that
13:11:59 You include 2 figures that are an integral part of answering those
questions in Section 3.0, and it's a screen capture from department of ecology's
website that covers 3 o 3 D listed waters it's
13:12:17 a map. you can pair it down right down to the sub basin, and then you can
choose the 303 d listed waters. You want to see which, in our case for this rating
form it's category.
13:12:29 5 listed waters I I don't I don't want to get too far into the weeds right
now. just kind of lay out a roadmap for the testimony for the examiner so issue
number
13:12:40 one the hydrogenomorphic class of Wetland.
13:12:43 A issue Number 2 for all Wetlands inaccurate responses about basins.
13:12:48 With regards to water quality. issue number 3, any other big picture
issues.
13:12:54 There are also an issue there's an issue for what land e on question S.
13:13:02 1.3 in the rating system, which is another water quality function.
13:13:07 And then for Wetland a question s 4.1 that has to do with hydrologic
function.
13:13:16 And I believe that might be it. yeah that's it and then and then due to
those I did come up with alright ratings for a couple of the women did you come up
with a a category?
13:13:31 3 wetland for Wetland, e I did. And did you come up with a category?
13:13:35 3 wetland for wetland? A: Yes. And are those wetlands rated by the
developer in the critical areas?
13:13:44 Report as category force. Okay, and does a category.
13:13:46 3 wetland need of bigger buffer than a category, for it does alright.
13:13:51 So let's watch through these 4 issues in order issue number one Wetland A.
13:13:56 Has the wrong hydrogenomorphic class. Issue number 2, all Wetlands. An
erroneous question related to Basins Question 3 wetland e.
13:14:05 A water quality question, and question 4 wetland a also a water quality
question. So we'll we'll take the issues in order, and then you can give us your
conclusions about why you think these should be category 3
13:14:14 wetlands. The last one for Wetland is a hydrologic function.
13:14:30 You do not, misspeak. I wrote it down wrong
13:14:37 Alright. Well, all of these opinions are stated, I take it, and exhibit 10
of how it's exhibit.
13:14:44 10. Yeah, Yes, That's right and just in the interest of efficiency. Mr.
13:14:56 Examiner, Have you had a chance to read appellant?
13:14:58 Exhibit 10 in advance of this hearing one time.
13:15:01 Okay, Did you have any questions that you would like us to focus on?
13:15:05 No, no. Okay. alright. well,
13:15:14 With with regards to the first issue, Ms. Brewster.
13:15:16 I guess the the the the heart of the controversy.
13:15:21 Here is the developer, says Wetland A is a sloped wetland, just like
everything else on this property.
13:15:27 You say Wetland A is just a regular old depression.
13:15:30 All Wetland. Why have you arrived at a at a different take on Wetland A.
13:15:35 Than the developers expert. Okay, so that should be clear. Have you been
to these wetlands?
13:15:46 Partially. part of it is located in the south western corner of the Site
and it extends off site to from from the property.
13:16:00 It. It extends a little bit to more to the northwest, from the property,
and also extends to the southeast from the property.
13:16:08 Alright, so absent a trespass could the developers expert have walked all
of of wetland a now that I'm i'm sorry for cutting you off.
13:16:20 Tell me why. you think it's a regular depression Wetland, and they think
it's a slope toilet.
13:16:25 Well, I think it's at least partially depression Wetland, and that is
important for something I will talk about in a few minutes.
13:16:36 But i'm calling it a depression wetland, because on page 8 of exhibit 49
the critical areas.
13:16:45 Report. Okay, I believe I am showing us all page 8 it says double click to
enter full screen mode for you for me.
13:17:18 On my screen. I am already from the screen mode.
13:17:21 Maybe you can double click on yours let's see Mr.
13:17:25 Sidel's all i'm seeing is that you've started screen sharing it doesn't
show anything.
13:17:30 Alright, i'm taking screen sharing off now i'm turning screen, sharing
back on Now what do we see from my perspective.
13:17:40 It was the same both times, but all right so we're on page 8.
13:17:44 What did you want to call our attention to Diane?
13:17:45 So in in in the section 3.3 point 2 wetlands, and then they have
subsections below that wetland, a and the first one they describe the wetland and
the fact that it extends
13:18:01 off site and It says that the wetland is located in a surface depression,
and hydrology is supported by precipitation.
13:18:13 So from that sentence That's very different from the descriptions of all
the other wetlands that talk about it being drainages and on slopes.
13:18:22 So this tells me that there is at least some portion of the wetland that
is, in a depression area.
13:18:30 And the reason why this is important is because the ecology's rating form
requires that when you have 2 h, 2 hydrogenomorphic classes like both depression,
and perhaps slope and
13:18:48 i'm and you know, looking at the base map that was used for their diagram
or their figure showing where the wetlands are.
13:19:00 They use a topographic map underneath it which is really helpful.
13:19:04 Actually and but this is something that is not site specific.
13:19:11 These are like topo maps that are made by agencies.
13:19:16 Can I? can I? Can I display it for you?
13:19:19 Sure, alright. So and so they're on page 33 of critical errors report,
which is exhibit 49. Yeah.
13:19:31 And if you can blow this up so that we can just see that one corner of
there easily. There we go.
13:19:35 So now we can see all the topographic lines. so it looks like there is
that it is slope.
13:19:42 But when because what they saw on site I see it doesn't extend off to the
north was there just to the southeast because it does not extend off site, or
because they said that it's located
13:20:01 in a depression. What that says to me is that a part of this well end is
probably located in a depression, and the other part is probably sloped in any
wetland.
13:20:16 You can have one or more 100 geographic features.
13:20:21 And so the ecology's rating form is very clear about what you do in that
case they would not have access to.
13:20:30 No, I wouldn't have if I had been working on the site to know whether
they're it's all just in a depression area, or whether it's part depression or part
slope and the only way to really
13:20:48 know that is, to get somebody in there to do something, do a topographic
survey on land. but they probably would have to go onto the neighbors property to
really tell that.
13:21:00 So from this perspective of what they observed and what we see here.
13:21:06 We could just assume that it has both depression and slope wetlands.
13:21:11 And so the department of ecology is very clear and their document, the
rating system form document on let's see on it's within the rating form itself.
13:21:30 It is, would be on the second page of any of the rating forms that are
shown in Appendix B.
13:21:41 Of this report, and they have a table in there That shows that.
13:21:47 If you have a wetland that is both slope and depression, then you use the
depressional.
13:21:54 What line rating forms? and did they do that in this instance?
13:22:02 If i'm following you correctly that makes that makes it sound like they
used the wrong rating form for Wetland A.
13:22:09 Is that what you're trying to say here
13:22:16 Well, we don't really know because we don't have all the information about
the whole wetland, and I didn't really go through.
13:22:24 I wasn't I I I kind of walked through the depressional forms, but because
I was not out on sites. There's so many things that they asked about that I would
not have had the opportunity to really see out there the details
13:22:37 of it. but part of what? oftentimes depression wetlands will have a higher
score.
13:22:47 Then Slope wetlands do, and that is because in the depressional forms
ecology asks many more questions in which you get.
13:23:00 You, you know, points in a depression wetland.
13:23:04 Then they do in a slow Portland for instance? What's that? Why, Why do
they ask so many more questions about a depression wetland than a slope wet?
Because a depression wetland?
13:23:18 Has a lot more a lot more options in the wetland as far as the hyperlogy
goes, and the geomorphic shape or position of the wetland, whereas with the slope
wetland
13:23:34 slope wetlands. The water has to run all over the surface, or just very
shallowly through the soil.
13:23:45 To the ground close to the soil surface let's say that and and also there
can be no there's nothing that obstructs water running through the wetland. that
is, it's on a hill slope and so
13:24:04 the water just runs over the land and over the top few inches of the soil.
13:24:11 Through the top few inches of the soil but water doesn't actually sit in
the wetland in a depression wetland.
13:24:19 There is an actual outlet there's, usually a point one or 2, maybe points
of outlets for the water flow in the wetland, or water moving through the wetland,
and in a depression wetland.
13:24:34 The lowest point of the wetland is not the outlet.
13:24:39 The lowest point is somewhere in the middle of the wetland, whereas with
the sloped wetland there's nothing constraining the water.
13:24:47 The water just flows across the landscape. do you have anything to add
about our first issue?
13:24:56 Use of the wrong hydrogenomorphic class, and therefore the use of the
wrong waiting, rating form for wetland.
13:25:01 A I would just say it's important to use the correct rating form to
accurately assess the functions provided by Wetland A, and determine the
appropriate buffer with required by a county code alright
13:25:18 our second issue was, and this one applies to all the Wetlands.
13:25:24 You said section s point 3.0 relating to water quality was not answered
correctly.
13:25:32 Why don't you tell me what what question 3.0 is all about, and I suppose
we could call up an example of it.
13:25:41 If that would be helpful sure if you go down into appendix F, and then
you'll see that there is actually the wetland a rating form there, and if you go
down to Yes, third
13:26:08 alright. So here's f Here's the rating, this is for Wetland a And so if
you scroll down one more, another page actually go up to the next page the phone
page again so this
13:26:24 number 2, the number 2 table when it says, Oh, where are we here? No.
13:26:31 Go down to the next page. Sorry, that is hilarious.
13:26:36 Okay, And then go down some more. One more.
13:26:41 Okay. The page on the left hand side. This was the table I was talking
about.
13:26:47 That shows that if you have a slope and a depression a webinar has slope
and depression Hdm.
13:26:55 Classes within it. Then you use the depressional rating, for are you
talking about this table here, where the the second process slope plus
depressional?
13:27:04 And then you go over to the right each gym class to use in rating
depression, know what you're referring to. Okay, excellent.
13:27:10 And and you're saying that's not what they did that is not what they did.
13:27:14 Because you see right on that you see on the right hand side here that
they use the slope Wetlands it's slow wetland at the top here It talks about is
13:27:32 it has questions relating to water quality improvement provided by the
site valuable to society.
13:27:38 So this is the value of the water quality the site performs or the
wetlands perform.
13:27:59 Okay, there'd be helpful if you gave us A.
13:28:03 We have a bait stamping in the exhibits that has page numbers for the
whole record.
13:28:09 If you could prefer to those pages, it would be very helpful I don't.
13:28:17 I don't have it in the base stamped format I can tell you that it is
appendix, 5 page 5
13:28:23 I I have them as standalone pdfs that's how i'm looking at them This is
Appendix F.
13:28:31 In the report, and it's the Wetland rating form for Wetland a question s
3.0.
13:28:39 All right. So Ms. Brewster, you said that not just for Wetland A.
13:28:43 But for all the Wetlands these questions 3 were not answered correctly.
13:28:49 Why did you say that that is correct? And also this same section?
13:28:54 And these same questions are asked in the depression wetland form there's
no difference between the slope and the depressional forms for this.
13:29:04 So I said this because okay, go up one page sorry I shouldn't mention this
on the way down so on the left hand side.
13:29:13 You see the left hand page. It says Maps and figures required answer
questions correctly for Western Washington, and then they broken it down by slope,
wetlands or depression wetlands.
13:29:30 And again, This is the same. as for the depression and for the slope
wetlands, Actually, for all of the wetlands, you have to supply a screen capture of
a map of 303 D listed waters in
13:29:43 the basin from the ecology website and the screen capture and list of Tmd.
13:29:51 Tmdls for the ria in which the unit is found.
13:29:56 So the ria is i'm forgetting what all of the letters mean.
13:30:00 But their units that our forces
13:30:08 The W. is watershed watershed resource, inventory area by and so
13:30:18 So these 2 figures were not included in the report.
13:30:24 I did create those figures. but first let's go down to the following 2
pages.
13:30:36 Okay, so, section, and you really have to have those. You have to have
that in order to answer these questions correctly.
13:31:04 So in Section 3.0 The 3 questions are: Does the wetland discharge directly
within one mile to a string river, lake, or marine? water?
13:31:14 That is, on the 303 D list section.
13:31:21 3.2 is the wetland in a basin or sub basin, where water quality is an
issue.
13:31:28 At least one aquatic room in the basin is on the 3 o 3 D.
13:31:31 List and question 3. Has the site been identified in a watershed or local
plan as important for maintaining water quality? Answer.
13:31:41 Yes, if there is a Tmdl. for the basin in which the unit is found, your
answer is wrong.
13:31:52 What's that? Why are the answers in this critical areas report in correct?
13:31:56 So they said, No, for each one of these the first one does the wetland
discharge directly within one mile to a stream, river or marine water that is, on
the 330 d list so the answer to that
13:32:15 is Yes, for what land e and wetland D. because both of those have direct
outlets from the wetland under the road across the people's property to the south,
and into Puget sound which is on the 3
13:32:38 O. 3 d list in the area. That is a immediately downstream of that or down.
13:32:46 Yeah downstream watershed wise from the project site.
13:32:52 Is there any other reason to believe that the developer has answered
question?
13:32:57 S: 3.0 incorrectly. Yeah. So S: 3.
13:33:01 Point 2 is the Wetland in the basin or sub basin, where water quality is
an issue, and I get time out real quick Miss Brewster. I didn't track you clearly,
you gave a very to me. and my I must have stopped and
13:33:18 didn't hear you and I confused myself. so I want to make sure you make it
really clear to me.
13:33:21 And we're talking about Puget sound is a listed water body?
13:33:25 Is that correct? under 3 O. 3? D. Is it a listed body or not?
13:33:30 You said something about a portion of it is, and you said something about
downstream.
13:33:35 So is the portion where the outfall for these wetlands are speaking of. Is
that portion of huge sound on the list?
13:33:41 Or is it some portion of puget sound that's further down, hey?
13:33:49 There are some that are in different locations on the sound.
13:33:55 The the Wetland Llc. Who did? The report actually included a figure that
shows future sound being identified as having a 303 d issue immediately adjacent to
where the call where the water would outlet into
13:34:19 the Sound from Wetlands and I was using the term outfall.
13:34:24 That may have been the wrong term, but it's basically the water from these
wetlands where that water enters Puget Sound.
13:34:32 Are you telling me that at that point Puget Sound should be considered on
the 303 d list?
13:34:38 Yeah, according to the figure, the one figure that what Llc.
13:34:45 Did put in their report. And what page does that show upon?
13:34:49 So that is that is sorry I can't give you the page at the moment. it's all
the way at the the It's like the last page in the report.
13:35:04 If you can. Oh, yes, all right so we're back in exhibit 49 again.
13:35:16 It's pdf page 1 25 it is actually the third to last page in in that
exhibit is it? Figure figure C on the right with the orange So what they're showing
on this is
13:35:34 that. there is a Puget Sound nutrient resource reduction Project, Ttmdl in
development for this area of the Sound.
13:35:46 Okay, thank you for pinpointing that for me. Ms. Brewster.
13:35:51 Are we ready to move on to our third of fourth issues?
13:35:57 So not not quite so. The 2. The other 2 questions that they answered with
0 should also have been answered with, Yes, and so if you can go into my report
exhibit 10 coming up, and the you would wanna
13:36:19 go to just after my page 4 so it's the first figure in attachment.
13:36:27 A which would be page 6 on that document. So in up a little bit more.
13:36:38 So see where he's the 6 over on the left hand side Okay, So this is the
one that shows the actually go up one more yes, that one right we are on page 5 of
appellant exhibit 10 right So what you can see here.
13:37:03 Is i've identified approximately, where the site location is it's hard
because this map is so small and but it's approximately in that area, and so you
can see sort of the pinkish lines in
13:37:16 there, and that shows the sub basin. so when I answered these last 2
questions.
13:37:21 I didn't do it for the basin as a whole because these wetlands are located
on this slope that slopes to the east, so any water quality that these wetlands
would provide wouldn't really benefit
13:37:36 listed waters that were up slope from them.
13:37:41 So I was just sticking to this, slower to smaller sub basin, which is
identified up above as being in riot 17.
13:37:51 And then the sub‐based number and this all comes off of the Department of
ecology's water quality Atlas map. Okay.
13:37:59 So they got so they were wrong about the large basin, and they are also
wrong about the sub basin.
13:38:04 Is that about right Well, I believe they just didn't really look at these
particular maps which were required by ecology to put into the rating form,
pronounce that and then another one a little bit to the north and then
13:38:38 another one, that sort of triangular shaped one.
13:38:45 And so then, if you go down to the next page, page 6, then what that what
I did for that is.
13:38:57 Then I clicked on each one of the and what I did was I chose only the
category 5 303 d waters, because that's the only ones that relate to the rating
system and so the one I
13:39:13 clicked on the one further to the north, and then it tells us what is the
tmdl parameter for which it was listed, and why that
13:39:27 Why that qualifies. So I I took a screenshot of that, and added again the
site location, so we could find ourselves on the.
13:39:37 So I did that for all 3 of those areas. which is what should have been in
the rating form. Okay?
13:39:47 And so is that yeah.
13:39:59 So that was that. so? that answers the question that why they should have
answered yes to those last? 2 questions in Section 3 point: Okay, Very good.
13:40:11 Now are we ready to move on to Wetland? E. question S.
13:40:13 Point 1 point, 3, alright. So this is a water quality question.
13:40:19 I mean I kind of hate to call it up? What is it helpful for me to call up
the rating form where they're answering this question?
13:40:25 Or is it? Is it better for you to describe verbally what's going on?
13:40:31 Let's see. So in this let me look Yeah, Okay, So it would be good to call
up their critical area.
13:40:45 On the way exhibit 49 here, and appendix G is for Wetland.
13:40:51 E: Am I correct? Yeah. good appendix. G. If you go down to a appendix, G.
13:40:58 Find Appendix G. and I believe those are forms for the rating, and Mr.
13:41:18 You were the one mentioning times and you got people available and
available.
13:41:20 It's 1 40 right now. just Yeah, actually the longer this goes, the more
the more people come available.
13:41:26 So. we're in good shape in that department Miss Brewster. I think Appendix
G.
13:41:31 Is the wrong place to send us? are you looking for the wetland rating form
for it for Wetland e Is that what we're looking for?
13:41:40 No, not the rating form, but I will I will take you to Appendix G.
13:41:46 And you can tell me if We're in the right place or not alright.
13:41:49 So Appendix G. no go up to Appendix F.
13:41:57 Appendix F. is. very long I will take us to that is all the rating forms
and then towards the end is again where their figures are.
13:42:08 And so we're going to let's see yeah we're gonna look at a figure a and
appendix g you mean alright.
13:42:22 So here's what i'm going to do I it's not a rating form if you go past all
the rating forms, and then they have the figures immediately after that i'm going
to show everyone.
13:42:32 What i'm doing here just so we're all kind of following along.
13:42:36 So We're in a Pellet exhibit 49 I'm. on Pdf.
13:42:42 Page 112. He has the rating form for Wetland.
13:42:43 E: Okay, So we're gonna keep going further into the report.
13:42:50 So so these are dial relating to Wetland, e. i'm. a pbf, 123 of exhibit
49.
13:43:03 Yes. and so you see over on the upper left hand side, and they say dense,
uncut, orbaseous plants is greater than 90%.
13:43:16 I will zoom in on that statement. so. But when you go to the Wetland e
question s point one that relates to that, and ask you actually that is one of the
questions in there you will see that they did not choose
13:43:35 that question. So I just wanna be sure what you're saying, right now, i'm
looking at the figure the figure seems to say dense, uncut verbaceous plants
greater than 90%. Okay, And do you think this photograph is This aerial
13:43:48 photograph is is consistent with that statement yeah it doesn't the they
don't really show that in this diagram they're just making a list on the side here.
13:44:03 Okay. So now you want to take us to the rating form where this issue is
discussed.
13:44:10 This is for Wetland, e and its question s point 1.3.
13:44:14 That's okay. So go down and Miss Brewster and Mr.
13:44:19 Sidel's just schedule the first they're doing it, and everybody else gets
to hear this.
13:44:24 But please don't talk over each other and Miss Brewster let Mr.
13:44:29 Sidel's take you to what the question might be and if he asked you to find
something for him.
13:44:33 If you don't mind if you could tell him what exhibit number, and what
page?
13:44:38 Okay, but please don't speak over one another thank you Mr.
13:44:42 Examiner. So Miss Brewster. we are looking for Wetland.
13:44:45 E question s point 1.3 am I correct that's correct alright. So let's see
Alright so here we are on Pdf.
13:44:55 1 16 of exhibit 49. This is Appendix F.
13:44:58 It is a Pdf. 116 it's the wetland E.
13:45:02 And here we have question s 1.3. Let me make it larger here.
13:45:10 Alright, what are we looking at now, Miss Brewster?
13:45:13 So They're asking about the characteristics of plants in the wetland, and
then they give a list to choose from and
13:45:27 They in the figure that we had just looked at. They did say that dense
woody plants were less than 90%, which probably means there more than half of the
area.
13:45:39 So they chose number 2, but the instructions in the rating form is, you
can't just start at the bottom and stop when you hit something at the top.
13:45:49 You have to go all the way to the top and if there's something that
matches it.
13:45:53 You have to choose the higher, not rating number. And so what we just
looked at is that on that figure for Wetland, e?
13:46:01 They said, dense, uncut, orbitious plants were greater than 90% of the
wetland. Well, that's what the figure said.
13:46:08 What does this rating form? The rating form says that it was dense.
13:46:14 Woody plants greater than half of the area. So But but the question, Miss
Brewster, the top question, which would have given you 6 points, seems to be asking
dense, uncut, herbaceous plants greater than 90% of the
13:46:28 Whitland area. if yes, 6 points. Have I understood that correctly?
13:46:33 Yes, So based on the dialogue, which showed greater than 90% dense, uncut,
orbitious plants.
13:46:41 What should the answer have been here? It should have been 6, and instead,
it is a okay.
13:46:49 What is the significance of this number? So if you look at the whoops?
13:46:55 If you kept that up. i'm sorry I I like to have your face on there instead
of the thing.
13:47:00 But okay. So if you see just below this box, it says, rating of site
potential, what they do is they take the total number.
13:47:12 That would, you know, when you add all the points in the boxes above.
13:47:16 It changes from a 2 to a 6, and so then they take the numbers, and they
change it into a value.
13:47:23 And so, instead of being low value, it would be moderate value so? i'm
looking here 0 to 5 equals. L.
13:47:31 Does that mean? If you have 0 to 5 points, you are a low value.
13:47:34 Wetland. Yes; but if you are 6 to 11 points m that's a moderate value
wetland for this particular function.
13:47:56 Yes, I think that's enough on the Wetland e question s point 1.3 I guess
the last of our 4 issues here was wetland, a question s point 4.1 which you said
was a
13:48:12 hydrological question, so let's go take a look at that one.
13:48:16 Okay, and well, i'm looking for the for the rating form?
13:48:21 Why don't you tell me you know introduce us to how hydrological issues?
13:48:26 What? what? What are we even talking about here? Okay, So this particular
question in this section is about the potential hydrologic function that this
wetland can provide.
13:48:39 And so it's asking asking us to characterize how much of the wetland is
covered with plants that provide a physical barrier to sheet flow coming down the
slope.
13:48:54 Okay, now, shall I call it up again? this is Wetland A.
13:49:03 So if it's really a depression if it really should have been depressional,
this question would be different.
13:49:08 But because We're looking at this one I just wanted to point this out. so
I have now taken us to exhibit 49.
13:49:17 We are at Pdf. 84 of that. This is Appendix F.
13:49:21 This is the wetland rating form for Wetland. A.
13:49:23 And I have on the screen. Now question s 4.1 why don't you tell us what
the question is getting at?
13:49:29 So it's the characteristics or plants that reduce the velocity of surface
flows during storms.
13:49:37 So they're looking at how how well can this Wetland slow down the flow of
stormwater, and they're asking that you only consider stems of plants that are
thick enough.
13:49:53 Usually one eighth of an inch, which is pretty it's not that thick or or
if the plants are dense enough to remain erect during surface flows, so they gave
this 0 point what should they have given
13:50:10 it, they should have given it 1 point so Let's see, let me go through my
notes, and make I sure I say this the right way.
13:50:26 So what the question is asking for is that if plants found within the
wetland are dense, ungrazed, rigid plants for more that cover more than 90% of the
area of the wetland, the plants can
13:50:42 be herbaceous shrub and or tree species as long as all the plants are more
than 6 inches tall.
13:50:49 This is instructions in the rating form. The individual plants must be
spaced closely enough that the soil is barely, if at all, visible with at least
greater than 75% of the ground being obscured by
13:51:04 plants. So the way I came up with this that they should have given it to
one was by looking at the photographs that they have given showing Wetland A.
13:51:22 There's just one photograph of what land a i'll see if I can call up that
photograph.
13:51:26 You keep talking? And what that photograph shows is that slusage is
growing very, very densely in the wetland.
13:51:37 In some areas that is the only plant that is growing in other areas.
13:51:43 You can see the slusage growing very densely underneath.
13:51:47 Salmon, barry shrubs and they definitely cover when you're standing, when
you're looking from the perspective of the photograph, you cannot see anywhere near
25% of the wetland soil and you can
13:52:08 see that the herbaceous plants and the Salmon Barry are very dense.
13:52:15 Okay, I'm going to try to call up some photos here.
13:52:19 We're going to go back to exhibit 49 and Mr. Titles.
13:52:24 It's now 152 you're approaching 1 h with this witness and nobody else has
had a chance to ask your questions about how much time do you need to wrap up your
direct examination 15 min should be more than
13:52:37 enough. try and do it properly, because you've got other people you
mentioned, and I have to allow time for people to cross‐examine the witness as
well.
13:52:45 So Okay, move on. So here are some photos. Ms.
13:52:51 Brewster So I believe it's the lat on the last page of photographs.
13:52:58 Alright. So here we are at pdf page 50 so it's the photo in the upper left
hand side caption, says Wetland, a in southwest corner of site. Yes, alright. is
this the photo you relied on to
13:53:14 determine that the correct answer to question S. 4 point: one should be
one.
13:53:18 What about this photo made you say that? Well, you can see how densely
growing the sluce edges, and also the fact that it continues underneath the salmon.
13:53:31 Barry shrubs and
13:53:38 Sorry I had a thought in my head and then it just went away.
13:53:43 We'll go on and see if it comes back
13:53:58 Like of believes that. You see there is a stock where all of the leaves
are coming out together and going up, and then they spread out.
13:54:05 So they definitely are wider than an eighth of an inch at their base.
13:54:11 All right now. So you've identified 4 categories of error here.
13:54:17 For Wetland a should have been depression rather than slope for all
wetlands.
13:54:23 They didn't provide the required maps and answered the basin questions
incorrectly.
13:54:30 For question for Wetland e question s 1.3 was answered incorrectly,
because, their own findings were that it is greater than 90% dense uncut herbaceous
and finally, the fourth issue with
13:54:44 Wetland a question for point. one should have been a a one on the
hydrological question.
13:54:52 Putting that all together, what about these findings leads you to conclude
that the correct category of these wetlands should have been a 3 rather than a 4.
13:55:03 So if you go to page 4 of exhibit 10, my report
13:55:10 I have a couple of tables that so it's easy to see at a glance So what
happened because of that is that it raised?
13:55:26 It raised the now. Yeah. So this is this is the ecology rating form.
13:55:34 So. So you saw in the ecology rating form at the end of every section.
13:55:39 It turned it took a numeric raising and turned it into a water quality.
13:55:49 Rating are a a a the meet the low, moderate, and high.
13:55:58 You took you, took the numbers and turned it into an L or an M.
13:56:00 Is that right? right? or an H. if you got a high enough score, So what you
can see in these 2 tables is, I marked the cells where the the scores went higher
So this is So the high that you see So
13:56:22 for improving water quality under value. It went from a low to a high,
because now you are answering those questions and sections.
13:56:33 S point 3 0, and not making each one of them 0.
13:56:39 And all you need is a number 2 in order. to turn that that from a low to a
high.
13:56:49 And so that's why you see that same one in both the corrected a rating
score and the corrected e rating scores. I just want I, Mr. Examiner I I want you
to be you know absolutely clear on what you're seeing here in terms of
13:57:04 like. you know what these tables are who the author of them is why it's in
yellow.
13:57:09 Are are, I know it's hard to like do this on the fly.
13:57:13 We've all had hours to look at this stuff you're hearing it for the first
time.
13:57:15 Are you tracking yep but it would really help if you told me again what
exhibit number and what page cause you've zoomed in, and I can't put that in my
notes because I can't see it Yes, sir, it's exhibit
13:57:32 10 at the one time you said it Yes, it's exhibit 10, page, 4 of exhibit,
10 and these are the only highlighted tables in exhibit.
13:57:37 10. But this is kind of the. this is kind of the meat of this witnesses
testimony.
13:57:40 It all boils down to this table. so I want to be really sure we're all you
know, tracking Thank you for doubling.
13:57:46 Thank you for circling back. Make sure my notes. show that
13:57:57 But in the record it's exhibit 67 thank you.
13:58:02 And in the future, if you don't mind just say pardon me, this is Missouri.
13:58:07 Sure anybody else does that as well identify yourself by name. alright,
13:58:14 So so. Miss Brewster, the tables that aren't the the cells that aren't
highlighted are the ones where you agree with the developers critical errors.
13:58:25 Report the ones that are highlighted are where you know you've essentially
done.
13:58:30 Their work for them, plugged in the correct numbers, and then generated.
this table Have I?
13:58:34 Have I accurately described how this table came into existence?
13:58:39 Yes, okay. and you know, I see the end result here, both for corrected
Wetland.
13:58:48 A and corrected Wetlandy. In both cases you you end up with a 16.
13:58:52 What what is that? What does that do for us so that tells us that it's a
category 3 wetland on the first page of any of the rating forms that I'm.
13:59:08 So sorry, I realized I should have just put some of these forms in in my
report, so we don't have to keep running back and forth.
13:59:14 So there's but in it of the rating forms on the very first page you will
see this table and above the table.
13:59:21 It will have a list of category, one through category, 4 wetlands, and
what that total number has to be in order for it to qualify as what category it is
and so having a 16 changes it from a
13:59:39 category 4 to a category. 3 category.
13:59:43 3 Wetlands range from 16 to 19, I believe.
13:59:51 Mr. Mcclain, I know you have a ton of experience with wetland
delineations.
13:59:56 In these hearings, so I will not walk you through the significance of
being a category.
13:59:59 3 wetland and the the larger buffer that would be required.
14:00:07 I think i'll i'll save that sort of thing for closing elicit it from this
witness you'll notice that buffers and other performance standards are often more
stringent depending on
14:00:20 the higher. I guess the lower number assigned to the Wetland in this case
a 3, right.
14:00:25 Yup, yup, yup, all right well with that thought.
14:00:32 I think I have no further questions for you, Miss Brewster.
14:00:34 Thank you. Alright, Ms. Brewster make sure i'm on here.
14:00:39 Which of the esteemed council here would like to go first? Ms. Kaylor and
Mr.
14:00:43 Hutman. We can always do it one way or the other.
14:00:46 I can alternate, or whoever wants to go first. and go first, i'll go ahead
and take the first turn here. All right, Go ahead, Ms Cayla. Thank you Good
afternoon, Miss Bristol and Courtney Kayla
14:01:07 representing the applicant, and I just have a couple of questions for you.
I'm actually gonna be able to make this quick.
14:01:12 I think so. First, I believe You indicated in your testimony that you had
not conducted a site visit.
14:01:21 Is that correct? that's correct, and so you have not seen any of the
Wetlands in in question Personally, I have seen the photographs of the Wetlands in
the report, and I also read their descriptions
14:01:35 in the report. but that is what so that's what I know about the white
lines.
14:01:39 Okay, And so you have not seen any of those person correct?
14:01:42 Correct
14:01:52 Those are all my questions for you. Thank you, Missouriichman.
14:01:56 Did you have any questions on behalf of the county?
14:02:05 Yeah, I guess I do have one. There you are.
14:02:14 And and forgive me, i'm going to have to time back into my notes here.
14:02:21 You you were talking about the the screen captures. that should have been
done for the Tmdl's.
14:02:33 You refer to one document in the applicants Wetland report.
14:02:39 That was a map that showed a large orange area for Puget Sound, and it
said, Tmdl under development.
14:02:51 Do you recall that slide? I do. alright. now is that is a Tmdl under
development.
14:03:00 The same thing as a tmdl let me see.
14:03:05 Oh, I used to have there. Oh, here we are 49.
14:03:13 So let me. I just want to get back in and look at that.
14:03:15 Here my myself. so what it says. You have to scroll all the way through
the report here
14:03:33 Here we go!
14:03:38 It says Puget Sound, nutrient resource, reduction project, Tmdl in
development.
14:03:46 So what that? What I am assuming that this is saying is that the Puget
Sound nutrient source, Reduction Project.
14:03:56 Tmdl is the name of a project, and that the project itself is in
development.
14:04:03 Okay, have you looked up this project? I did not have the opportunity to
do In truth, you really don't know that what it is to you.
14:04:13 I know it has to do with Tmdls. but I but it is not I.
14:04:19 I do not know all the details about it. Okay? I think that was the only
question I have.
14:04:25 Thank you. I have a question in my. I got it on Ms.
14:04:31 Brewster. Do you know what Tmdl stands for?
14:04:36 I know it has to do with water quality in the in the figures that I
provided the Tmdl is a They get into the specifics of what is making it 3 3 d
catategory 5 area and So they're
14:04:57 looking at? What are the pollutants? Is it pollution?
14:05:01 Is it sediment, or is it bacteria?
14:05:05 Is it sediment? Is it lack of oxygen that those sorts of things?
14:05:10 And so in those figures that I put in there.
14:05:14 It shows that little pop up box shows what that element is.
14:05:20 And i'll take judicial notice from prior experiences as a aging attorney.
14:05:26 But Tmdl stands for total maximum daily load.
14:05:30 A Tmdl can be set by a regulating agency.
14:05:34 In this case they are those that are on delegation from the Epa.
14:05:40 The department of ecology here would be Tmdl can be set to control a type
of pollutant that might enter a water body.
14:05:47 So a Tmdl number is very important and with paper mills.
14:05:53 We have hearings from time to time where there's a tmdl allowing for a
certain level of say, dioxide, dioxin, or other pollutants that enter say the
Columbia River.
14:06:05 In this context. can you hear today answer missouri lickin's? question Yes
or no.
14:06:09 Do you know if the phrase Tmdl under development means that there is
actually a Tmdl.
14:06:16 That is established for the portion of the Puget Sound Water body, where
the outfall for the water from these alleged wetlands enters into Oak Bay.
14:06:26 Yes or no, no, you don't know okay alright there might be.
14:06:32 But you don't know alright just wanna clarify that Mr.
14:06:36 Sidel's. Do you have any follow up questions for this witness, based on
questions, on cross‐examination or mind?
14:06:42 None of this time but given that we're about to hear from their well‐end
expert.
14:06:47 I think we'll be calling Miss Brewster back to give some rebuttal
testimony.
14:06:50 We can address some of this tmdl stuff based on whatever they say, and
based on that 9 pages you're talking about that.
14:06:58 Okay. Alright, Alright, Well, thank you, Miss Brewster.
14:07:00 We may hear from you again later. but thank you for your testimony today.
Alright, Mr. Sidel, you ready to call your next witness. Yes, So Diane.
14:07:10 Well, well, you're kind of checked out there. you know I do want you to
listen to their wetland experts, so like, you know.
14:07:16 Stay in the vicinity. but you've got that report of theirs to read, and
then some some questions that were put to you about Tmdl.
14:07:22 So please use the non wetland time to start preparing for that, trying to
try to get through this for everybody.
14:07:28 All right. So i've got just 2 more witnesses to go, Mr.
14:07:31 Mcclain, one on traffic, one on noise. Mr.
14:07:35 Tillman is my traffic expert, and he has waited patiently all day, so as a
reward, he gets to go first.
14:07:41 That's fine, and I appreciate you extending a courtesy to folks who have
been patient here.
14:07:46 So go ahead. Where is it on ice cream I see him and i'm not yet,
14:08:02 I am with you. But there you are. You needed to speak, to move yourself
and add you on the speaker feature instead of gallery.
14:08:10 So there you are, Mr. Tobin, your name's phil our oss space T.
14:08:14 I. L. Gm. A n correct that's right sir. and you have the nice Dyson air
cleaner or air conditioner there behind you, moving around so I see you in your
comfortable space, Mr.
14:08:27 Do I say it, Tillman? that's correct till number I I've known families
with that last name, and wanna make sure I pronounced it right. so if you would
please raise your right hand Mr.
14:08:38 Tilman, do you swear or a firm that tell me you're about to give today
will be the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14:08:43 I do. have you been let? I heard you were listening to testimony
throughout the day.
14:08:49 So. Do you understand the drill so far? yes, I do, sir.
14:08:53 Alright. so thank you very much, Mr. Sidel he's your witness.
14:08:57 Thank you for waiting, Mr. Tillman. Will you describe your professional
qualifications and experience?
14:09:01 Please. I mean transportation planner. I have been practicing as a private
consultant my entire career.
14:09:10 I started to work full time in late 1,984, and have been doing this
continuously since then.
14:09:18 My education is a undergraduate degree in history and a master's degree in
geography with emphasis on transportation.
14:09:27 I've been working with a diverse set of land uses throughout my career.
14:09:33 Providing traffic, parking studies, traffic impact analyses, master plans
and the range of projects I've worked with are anywhere from small single site to
large area plans, recreation, special event and public assembly facilities have
14:09:52 been key features of that experience. work years ago at the for the
semi‐amu the plan and monitoring the early operation.
14:10:04 This resorted Semi‐amu up in Blaine, Washington, and have worked with
other recreation projects throughout Washington State and elsewhere.
14:10:16 And What work did you do in reviewing the Pomona Woods project?
14:10:20 Well, I visited the site. I read through the Cpa checklist the staff
report the amended checklist.
14:10:31 I believe there was also an additional project narrative describing more
about the project.
14:10:39 So I have read those documents primarily alright.
14:10:43 We were you present for the testimony this morning?
14:10:47 Yes, I heard. I I think the bulk of it.
14:10:51 Did you see when I was showing Ms. Ross those photographs of the driveway?
14:10:55 Yes, I did. Were you the one who took those photographs?
14:11:01 That the one photograph that was in question that I recall. I don't
believe I did take I have taken similar photographs, but I don't believe I took
that one as I did not find it in on my camera and double
14:11:14 checking Okay, But did you recognize the site based on the photographs and
your own site?
14:11:20 Visit. Yes, I do. Okay. And incidentally, Mr. Examiner, those photographs
I had referred to them as appellant exhibit 5
14:11:29 What with the renumbering they are, you know, official.
14:11:32 Exhibit Number 30. Remember when we did those photographs with Ms.
14:11:35 Ross. So so you might just put a note in your notes that it's it's hearing
examiner exhibit 30 alright.
14:11:43 So, Mr. Mr. Chairman, you have provided your own expert report, and i'm
gonna give it to the examiner here with the correct number on here.
14:11:51 So it's hearing examiner exhibit 28 is Mr.
14:11:55 Tillins report. We refer to it as a pellet exhibit 3, but it's hearing
examiner 28. Mr.
14:12:02 Tillin. What did you conclude would be the traffic impacts of the Pomona
woods project?
14:12:10 Well, the principal conclusion I came to had one to do with the volume of
traffic.
14:12:17 That I believe the The busier season described in the Cpa checklist would
result in a range of daily volumes from close to what the checklist said to a
volume considerably greater than what the checklist
14:12:34 had indicated. So that is one the other principal conclusion is that the
the proposed point of access from Oak Bay Road being essentially opposite Mrs.
14:12:54 Ross's driveway. could set up conflicts unnecessary, could set up
unnecessary conflicts.
14:13:03 Based on the drawings we have seen so far. the driveways overlap, but are
not precisely aligned.
14:13:11 Directly opposite one another. The problem I see is that with the projects
driveway being located slightly north of the center line of Ms.
14:13:24 Ross's driveway is that vehicle's waiting to turn left into that project.
14:13:32 Could block movements in and out of terry ross's driveway, and that if
they were a better alignment, or even a separation, much greater separation.
14:13:41 These driveways, those conflicts could be reduced, if not eliminated.
What!
14:13:46 What do you mean? A a better alignment or more separation?
14:13:48 Well again if there's a slightly staggered alignment it as I described
vehicles waiting to turn left.
14:13:57 That is they're coming from the south and we'll turn left into the site.
14:14:04 They will overlap any vehicle wanting to go in or out, and this is ross's
driveway.
14:14:10 So it causes a blockage that doesn't occur now, So if the if the driveways
could be better aligned
14:14:19 So that they are truly opposite one another. That would somewhat reduce
that conflict if they could actually be separated, so that they were both the
effectively t intersections.
14:14:32 It would eliminate that conflict. I wanna make sure I understand you
correctly.
14:14:36 It sounds like it would fix the problem to make the driveways more
aligned.
14:14:40 It would also fix the problem to make the driveways like much less aligned
like, much further apart.
14:14:45 But there's this kind of like you know middle zone which is like the worst
of both worlds, and I am I tracking this correctly?
14:14:52 Yes, with the project's driveway being offset slightly to the north of the
Ross driveway.
14:14:59 Yes, that creates the maximum conflict. if it could be offset to the
south.
14:15:05 Either somewhat or a lot. Get them, as I say, reduce or even eliminate the
conflicts.
14:15:14 And Are there other similar conflicts elsewhere? along Oak Bay Road?
14:15:20 Well again. they're very I don't recall in this immediate area.
14:15:26 Any other 4 way intersections and I think heard residents testify that
it's basically just t intersections.
14:15:36 The driveway meets the road. you don't have driveways directly opposite
one another.
14:15:44 And rt intersections superior in terms of avoiding the type of backup
problem that you're describing.
14:15:53 Yes, there are fewer points of conflict at a t intersection.
14:15:58 They're really only 9 points of conflict at a 4 way intersection.
14:16:04 There can be from 28 to 32 points of conflict, because there seems more
maneuvers that overlap
14:16:13 The paths of other vehicles. What do you mean?
14:16:15 32 points of cost. What does that mean?
14:16:17 Assuming full movements that there are no restricted terms.
14:16:22 At a four‐way intersection there are 32 points where vehicles could
potentially collide.
14:16:28 What are you basing that off of standard highway? information?
14:16:37 This would be in the highway capacity manual. This would be in virtually
every state.
14:16:42 Do t design manual it's in virtually every traffic planning, engineering,
primer illustrating the number of conflict points A.
14:16:55 T intersection, obviously only has traffic entering and leaving the road
from one side There's simply fewer points of conflict.
14:17:03 Okay.
14:17:11 See.
14:17:17 Besides the excessive points of conflict at ms Ross's driveway your report
provides a table of estimated trip generations.
14:17:31 I'm going to call that up so we can all see it
14:17:39 So here comes the the table from his report, and again in terms of exhibit
numbers.
14:17:47 Where we are at is hearing examiner exhibit 28.
14:17:52 We are on page 4, Mr. Tillman, did you generate this table that we are
looking at now?
14:17:59 Yes, I did. and what does this table illustrate?
14:18:08 Well first, the The first bit of information is trip generation, if only
residential at one dwelling unit per 5 acres.
14:18:18 That is the the underlying zoning the residential zoning.
14:18:23 So this site at just to take over 20 acres could be developed with 4
single family homes, or that the case it would generate an average of 38 vehicle
trip‐ins.
14:18:40 Daily. So that is the basic point of comparison. What what existing zoning
allows Below that, then, are 3 different operating scenarios for the proposed
project, and one would be what I would turn the worst.
14:18:59 Case it is a day where the project has been fully occupied, and the group
that has been there is departing.
14:19:10 And then sometime in that same day, the next group to occupy the project
arrives.
14:19:17 Now this, this, this worst case is based on the 2224 guest rooms assuming
2 persons per room, and then it works through the number of vehicles that would be
expected based on that number
14:19:41 of guests the possibility. I think the strong possibility that at least
one in 2 guess might make an extra trip out.
14:19:51 For some reason during the day. it shows that staff 6 staff would arrive
they would arrive to work and then later depart.
14:20:01 That there could be 2 deliveries within the day.
14:20:05 Trips are signed to the man managers, residents a single family home, and
then there might be 2 maintenance vehicles that arrive, and later depart, so that
could be a total daily.
14:20:19 Volume of 95 vehicles that's basically 2 and a half times greater than
14:20:27 The trips from 4 single family homes where the property developed that
way.
14:20:31 And Mr. Tillman, I see on here, you know things like like in that top
line.
14:20:35 There. it says, you know average of 1 point: 7, 3 persons per vehicle.
14:20:38 How did you arrive at that number? That is looking at what we call the
mode split?
14:20:45 That is Some share would actually drive a single occupancy vehicle.
14:20:52 Some may share a car pool well I mean that certainly makes sense.
14:20:58 But i'm just wondering like where did that specific number come from.
14:21:01 Why is it specific? Number 7 4 that one I I assume Again, this being a
worst case, worst case, 25% of guess would drive themselves drive alone.
14:21:20 65% would carpool with an average of, say, 2 point.
14:21:24 One people per vehicle, and then perhaps 10% are in a van or small bus.
14:21:31 With an average of 5 people. that works out to an average of 1.7 3 people
per vehicle.
14:21:40 Now, again I indicate that's my assumption of a worse case.
14:21:49 Then the The second case is title Peak season, Turnover Day, and this
again follows information largely in the
14:22:02 The Cpa checklist where the applicant even though they're 24 guest rooms.
14:22:08 They indicate there'd be a maximum of 35 people, so that zooms that some
rooms have only one occupant and other rooms have 2 and I and then staff trips to
delivery trips Manchester
14:22:25 residents maintenance trips. So for a total daily vehicle count of 68,
just about 1.7, 9 times greater than
14:22:37 The single family volume, and I think you'd be clear You don't need the
single family volume for one house.
14:22:44 You need the single family volume. if if this thing was developed to its
maximum residential density, correct?
14:22:52 Okay, And then what is your final scenario there? And the final scenario
is the peak season.
14:23:00 The mid what I call the midst day when there's no turnover.
14:23:04 The applicant indicates that the groups booking the property would
typically stay 2 or 3 days they're staying 3 days.
14:23:11 That means day 2 you don't have scheduled guest arrivals.
14:23:17 You don't have scheduled Yes, departures I suggest that it's still highly
likely that some one of those 35 people may make extra trips on it off site, and if
it's only one out
14:23:32 of 10. that would be 7 additional vehicle trips, and then staff delivery
managers and maintenance trips.
14:23:41 So for a total on this day, when there is no turnover in the guest rooms
daily, vehicle trips would be expected to be 32.
14:23:51 So that's a little less than what 4 single family homes on the property
would generate.
14:23:59 But i'll note that even at 32 daily vehicle trips.
14:24:04 That's still less than the average number that the applicant indicated in
the C.
14:24:09 But checklist. Yes, I see your remark there at the bottom of the page.
14:24:12 You say the Cpa checklist, you know, provides much smaller numbers than
this.
14:24:16 How did that happen? Well, that number in the checklist is derived from
their what appears to be an annual average occupancy assumption.
14:24:31 I believe they indicate an average occupancy of 72% across the year.
14:24:41 And so that's simply a consequence of that assumption their assumptions do
not account for any extra guess trips.
14:24:49 Any leaving the property for any reason during their stay.
14:24:55 And I believe in some cases they may under account the number of staff
deliveries, and it's certainly under counts trips from the managers residents.
14:25:08 A single family home, which I believe, for transfer for planning purposes,
needs to be treated as a regular single family home.
14:25:17 So that's why I think even even in the peak season on the day when there's
no turnover. the volume is likely to be just a little higher than what the Cpa
checklist indicated would be the average
14:25:29 condition. No, I I wanna be clear, Mr. tillman I didn't hear anywhere in
your testimony.
14:25:34 You, alleging that there would be a level of service violation.
14:25:38 No, will there be there? No, I don't see any level service issues here.
14:25:45 Yeah. and and yet, there will be some adverse impacts to the neighborhood.
14:25:51 Describe those. Well, this would. This has to do primarily with safety.
14:26:00 But again, this is a us higher concentration of vehicles turning in and
out of a driveway than occurs elsewhere along those portions of Oak Bay road.
14:26:13 Again with if they're up as many as 95 daily trips.
14:26:18 That's a good deal higher than any other location and based on the
operations the applicant describes.
14:26:30 It seems highly likely that the majority of visitors coming to the site
will be driving up from the south on Oak Bay Road.
14:26:39 So that means they have to turn left to enter the project's driveway.
14:26:45 And depending on the volume of opposing traffic. they may have to yield.
14:26:50 Well, they'll certainly have to yield to opposing traffic, but perhaps
even have to stop and wait their turn to turn left.
14:26:58 Oak Bay road has a posted speed limit of 50 miles an hour in this section.
14:27:03 So, a stop vehicle being approached by somebody traveling 50 miles an hour
is a big difference in speed, and so it does suggest
14:27:15 There could be an increase potential for rear end. accidents based on
vehicle stopped right?
14:27:24 So that's one safety consideration and then the other relates to the
14:27:31 The driveway. opposite Mrs. Ross's driveway and the conflict.
14:27:39 She described concerns about those oncoming vehicles not headed to the
project swerving around vehicles waiting to turn in and coming over the shoulder
right at the apron of her driveway that's one and Then the other is obviously
additional traffic
14:27:59 while it's not a lot of additional daily traffic on a bay road.
14:28:04 It is a narrow road. People do ride bicycles on there.
14:28:07 I it during my site, and is it I observe people writing bikes on the road?
14:28:12 There's little to no shoulder it additional traffic there does pose
additional hazard to people on bicycles.
14:28:25 Recognizing that it's not the burden of the oak Bay concerned citizens to
design a safe project.
14:28:29 What are some kinds of things that could have been done differently to to
make this less of an impact?
14:28:37 Well, one reigning the intersection so that it doesn't create the kind of
overlap with Terry Ross's right way would be one relocating it to avoid that
overlap altogether would
14:28:53 be another and even potentially restricting movements at the try if other
options aren't available restricting movements.
14:29:02 So what if the driveway were right in and right out, that greatly reduces
conflict with traffic on a bait road?
14:29:12 Alright, thank you, Mr. Tillman. No further questions
14:29:20 I'm back there we go because ms Kaylor went first.
14:29:25 Last time is our liquid is the county. How many questions this witness?
14:29:29 We do not your own right, Ms. Kaylor.
14:29:33 Does the applicant have any questions for this witness
14:29:39 Excuse me, I was muted. I do have just a couple of questions.
14:29:46 And let's see good afternoon, Mr. tillman i've been introducing myself to
the other witnesses.
14:29:58 But we know each other so I hope you're hope you're doing well, thank you.
14:30:01 Yes, and you, too. I just have a couple of follow up questions here.
14:30:09 So first I believe you went just briefly over your qualifications.
14:30:16 You are not a transportation engineer are you that's correct. I'm.
14:30:20 A planner in your discussion of potential traffic impacts.
14:30:34 You You were discussing potential conflicts at the project driveway.
14:30:40 Entrance. Have you done any analysis of of of delay at that driveway
entrance?
14:30:54 No, I have not. okay. Have you done any any quantitative analysis of
transportation delay at any location for this project?
14:31:07 No, it did not examine delay. Thank you. I did mean for this project.
14:31:13 Yes.
14:31:19 Oh, briefly, your report that you discussed a moment ago.
14:31:26 Oh, May I please have access for screen sharing
14:31:34 I don't know It's down made you the Co‐host, Ms.
14:31:37 Cable. Thank you.
14:31:45 And There we go. Thank you, all right. I have just pulled up the
14:31:53 Your report, which I believe was accounting. exhibit 28, and I wanted to
ask you a couple of questions about this.
14:32:07 So first looking at page 4 of that exhibit the column that's entitled
worst case Turnover Day.
14:32:19 Which Oh, yeah, shows on the first 2 lines a departure group and a rival
group.
14:32:31 A number of trips on each line is 28, and I believe your testimony was
that that this was based on 24 rooms at double occupancy.
14:32:45 Correct as worst case that's correct. Okay, and have you reviewed the
staff report.
14:32:52 For this project? Yes, I have. And Are you aware, then, that there is a
condition of approval limiting the number of guests to 35?
14:33:08 Yes, so these numbers would not be consistent with that condition.
14:33:14 Would they? They would be above that condition. My concern was, if in
fact, rooms have, if all 24 rooms are capable of double occupancy, condition or no
condition, the potential exists that they could all all beds could be occupied.
14:33:33 And so my question was this is that assumption is not consistent with the
conditions of approval.
14:33:39 Is it as recommended by staff that's correct
14:33:51 And then, looking through all of your totals here i've noticed, you've
totaled up estimates of total daily vehicle trips in this in this table. you have
not attempted to identify peak hour
14:34:10 trips Have you that's correct this is daily travel lonely.
14:34:15 Okay, In discussing the applicants set assessment of traffic impacts, and
in your table, which I've now just closed.
14:34:30 You've made certain assumptions about trips to and from the caretaker
residence.
14:34:34 As being consistent with with generally with single family.
14:34:40 Trip. generation. Do you know, in the estimates for a single family home?
14:34:49 And trips generated. Do those include trips to and from work depending on
the day or week?
14:34:55 Yes. And so, for example, if a household did not need to leave the phone
to go to work those trips would not then exist within.
14:35:12 If that were true of all members of the household, that would be true.
14:35:18 Okay.
14:35:24 Oh, and I did apologize. Just want to pull that document back up again.
14:35:30 Briefly, i'm looking at the last scenario in your table and the number
below compared to single family residential point 8, 4.
14:35:43 So with your last set of assumptions. In fact, the project would generate
less trips than what would be allowed by a single family development of this
property.
14:35:54 Correct for perhaps a couple of days a week. That would be correct when
there is no turnover.
14:36:02 It would be true whenever there is no turnover correct.
14:36:09 Yeah. assuming, yeah, yes, for those days that they turn over That's
right.
14:36:15 Okay.
14:36:26 I think I have one more question for you. If I can read my own notes
14:36:35 Actually, I do not have any other questions for you. Thank you very much.
14:36:40 Thank you. Thank you, Ms. kaylor for the questions Mr.
14:36:46 Sidel's do you have any follow up questions for Mr.
14:36:48 Tillman, based on the questions posed and I didn't have any myself.
14:36:53 So, Mr. Toman, thank you for being here and watching things of You're.
welcome to watch the rest of the hearing there.
14:37:00 You're excused. or do you believe you might need to call him and rebuttal,
or Alright, Thank you.
14:37:11 Mr. Sidel, who would you like to call next i've got one more witness, Mr.
14:37:14 Examiner. I would like a brick before that witness if that's possible.
14:37:19 Let's see it's okay have about we come back on the record at a quarter of
is that enough time?
14:46:05 If our hearing coordinator would like to go ahead and turn on the
recording, i'll wait
14:46:14 We are now back on the record and recording It's now 246, and Mr.
14:46:21 Sidel had asked for a break, and we took one.
14:46:23 He said that he had one more witness to call so he'll turn to that.
14:46:29 Before we start any of procedural issues that popped up during the break
that I need to be aware of council.
14:46:34 Single hands raise. Let's go forward, Mr. sidel who would you like to call
as your next witness? We will be calling our noise expert, Mr.
14:46:41 Adam Jenkins. And does it say noise expert somewhere on here? it, says
Green Bush, which is the name of his noise.
14:46:48 Consulting company. There we go, and I see a person with Adam and then
Green Bush right there with his headset on Mr.
14:46:54 Green bush. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes, Mr. Examiner, I can hear you just
fine. Can you hear me?
14:46:59 Okay, absolutely great audio quality from your end if you would please
sort of raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to
give today will be the truth the whole truth.
14:47:09 And nothing but the truth I do, and sir, were you on for any of the
hearing so far today or not. I've been present for almost an hour.
14:47:19 Okay? Well, I'll just be brief. you Understand that Mr. Sidel's can ask
you some questions after that council for the applicant of the County Missouri,
admitted Miss Kaylor.
14:47:29 Can ask you questions, and then Mr. Sidles will have a chance to do some
closing.
14:47:32 Follow‐up questions if he feels he needs to. Okay, Excellent.
14:47:36 Thank you all right. If anybody's talking besides you please don't try to
talk.
14:47:41 Don't talk over each other. If your objections please stop and let me
address those that i'll tell you when whether you can answer how you can move
ahead.
14:47:49 Okay, Mr. Cycles, he's your witness Mr.
14:47:52 Greenbush. Welcome! we'll move forward here thank you Mr.
14:47:55 Examiner. So for the folks following along the exhibits that we'll be
referencing in the course of this testimony are, exhibit 29 which is Adam Jenkins
noise report we
14:48:09 refer to that one as a pellet. exhibit for but it's exhibit 29 on the
county list, and then the county had a i'm sorry the applicant had a rebuttal to
that which
14:48:18 was exhibit 66, and that was the one that we were kind of talking about
like.
14:48:25 Oh, did it come in on the 20 third, or whatever at the beginning of this
year?
14:48:29 Alright. Mr. Jenkins, can you describe your professional experience and
qualifications?
14:48:35 Please. Yes, sir, saddles i'm a vice President at the Green Bush Group for
a consulting engineering firm based in Seattle.
14:48:44 Washington have been practicing as an acoustical acoustical consultant at
Greenbush for 16 years, and over that time I've had a emphasis on environmental
noise and impact assessment I obtained my
14:48:56 undergraduate degrees and physics, and electrical engineering, and a
masters of engineering degree in acoustics from end state.
14:49:05 I'm a board certified noise control engineer by the Institute of Noise
Control Engineering, and i'm also a licensed professional engineer in the State of
Washington.
14:49:14 Thank you. Can you describe the work you did? reviewing the Pomona Woods
project?
14:49:19 Yes, so we initially reviewed the record as it existed prior to issues of
our of our report.
14:49:26 We conducted noise monitoring on the site to characterize the existing
noise, environment.
14:49:31 And we developed a computer noise model to try to predict the potential
noise emission footprint from the proposed project.
14:49:40 Since such a study had not been completed. and took the results of that
analysis based on the requirements in the code and pursuant to Sepa for for noise
effects.
14:49:52 And issued the our memoranda. My memorandum, that is in the record dated
April, 20 s, 2022.
14:50:00 And which is the exhibit number for that Mr.
14:50:05 South. So that's your report which is exhibit 29 excellent.
14:50:09 Thank you all right. when you say that you went out there and
14:50:13 Measured the noise. describe that process. So we deploy, and we deploy the
noise monitoring terminal at a nearby adjacent property, and left it for an
extended period of time to characterize what that existing ambient noise
environment
14:50:26 is during the day and night without this project present. Okay, And then
you said you modeled the noise that the project would generate.
14:50:35 Describe that process. So since the the record was fairly thin in terms of
what equipment might go somewhere in terms of you know, buildings have mechanical
systems, it's common to to provide air conditioning and and comfort features of
that especially with
14:50:53 facilities of this nature So, based on our experience also being a license
mechanical engineering firm, we will able to determine what we felt was a
reasonable potential equipment, noise, emission level from the the systems.
14:51:07 We don't know exactly what type of mechanical system it will be whether
it's a trial refrigerant flow or a unitary system, or a he he pop We don't know.
14:51:18 So we've made that we felt was a a reasonable estimate of how loud the
piece of equipment might be where it might go for garbage collection.
14:51:24 We use sound levels typical of of carbon collection vehicles and made
essentially the the best conclusions that we could draw, based on the information
that that was in the record.
14:51:36 Once you had made reasonable assumptions about what kind of noise
generating equipment would installed?
14:51:43 How did you figure out how noisy it would be to install that stuff here?
14:51:48 We use a computer noise modeling program called cadna a it's actually a
noise modeling environment.
14:51:54 It uses a computational noise model developed by little standardized by
the Institute of the International Standards organization.
14:52:01 Iso part 96, 15, and we we use that Iso standard within Cadna to predict
sound levels at adjacent property boundaries.
14:52:12 It is, one of the 2 most common computation tools for environmental noise
emissions used in the industry.
14:52:20 Does this model take account of local features like topography, and and
you know existing structures and things of that nature. It does.
14:52:29 It accounts for geometry, it accounts for screening So if there's
something that blocks line of sight between a noise source and a receiver, it
accounts for absorption qualities of the ground whether the ground is porous or
14:52:41 not so, this would be pavement or grass, and accounts to some extent for
meteorological conditions, such as refraction in the atmosphere, and some wind that
you send different propagation.
14:52:55 Characterist. you you can get based on various wind conditions, and it
rolls that into what considers a representative typical emission from the site.
14:53:06 Okay, In just a moment. I will call up your report here.
14:53:15 And again we examine Did you have any operations in advance of this
hearing to?
14:53:20 Read Mr. Jenkins report. I have not read this one yet.
14:53:30 So we're going into intended I notice that the Wetlands issues came up
before.
14:53:36 So that's why I focused on that this so we will call up exhibit 29 here.
14:53:47 Alright, and i'm on page 7 of that exhibit
14:53:57 This one is beats stamp on who knows? So the page numbers are on the top
there.
14:54:04 So here on the right, you see page 7. So, Mr.
14:54:07 Jenkins. I see a photograph here of some kind of you know mechanical
looking device.
14:54:12 Is that your equipment? Yes, that what you see? there is a tripod and a
microphone with a windscreen and a protective shroud that keeps the rain off the
expensive parts.
14:54:23 And then you see a pelican case, which is that black camera looking case.
14:54:28 That is where the external equipment is located.
14:54:31 The actual meter itself. Gotcha and then down below that There's a map
with a red dot right on the property line.
14:54:36 That red dot is labeled measurement Location Correct. And how long did you
leave it?
14:54:42 There. We left it there for an extended period. We pull up our dates.
14:54:48 We deployed on the fifteenth, and we did lose about a day of data we
needed to swap the meter out to shuffle summer at stem some equipment around in the
office.
14:54:59 So we started on the fifteenth. I left it for 24 h, and then deployed
again on the eighteenth, and picked it up on the twentieth and the cell, always in
the month of april and 20
14:55:09 22 all right and let's see what you detected.
14:55:15 So here on page 8 of the exhibit There's table 5 measured our least sound
levels.
14:55:21 I take it. this is what you what you measured that that's correct.
14:55:25 So what you see on the the the 2 right. Most columns are the typical sound
levels we measure during the day and night.
14:55:35 And there are a few different mo noise metrics that are presented.
14:55:38 The the Washington State code is adopted by the the county jurisdiction.
14:55:44 On on this matter uses not the metric shown, but it describes the sound
levels as percent exceeded versus a certain number of minutes over the hour, .
14:55:55 So you're gonna slow down, Mr. jenkins I'm i'm losing you here.
14:55:58 My my question, I think, was a simpler one. just what does your table
show?
14:56:02 Measured sound, level daytime. Then there's a range with another number in
parentheses.
14:56:06 What is this table telling us so? On each row we have of of the table we
have a different noise.
14:56:12 Metric. So it's describing the the statistical percentage of sound over
that hour.
14:56:20 So we we set those percentile metrics for each row based on what's in the
Washington State code under chapter 173 60.
14:56:29 The range of values. For example, the L. 25 noise metric under the daytime
column, between 29 and 52 means that the hourly L 25 sound level arranged between
29 decibels and
14:56:43 52 decibels during daytime hours, 1525% of the time.
14:56:55 And this goes back to the Washington State Code where it doesn't give us
metrics.
14:56:57 It says here's your sound level limit for up to 15 min in an hour.
14:57:03 So we take that 15 min per hour and apply it to the statistical metric.
14:57:08 L 25, and it attempts to quantify that L.
14:57:18 25 means that you know, within a typical hour one quarter of the time
that's where the 25 comes from.
14:57:27 The sound will be within this range. 29 to 53 one quarter of the time of
each hour, almost.
14:57:38 It's unfortunately a bit more complicated So during those during those
hours. so between 29 and and but during those sound those the periods that have the
sound levels between 29 and 52 decibels that means that
14:57:51 it's that sound levels actually exceeded 25% of the time.
14:57:55 So it it's fair to say. in my in my experience that these L 25 is what the
Washington State code would consider the typical sound level limit at the site.
14:58:06 So we you could say that sound levels are typically between * and * over
the course of the hour.
14:58:14 Now it's more complicated than that there's a lot of statistics involved.
14:58:17 But this is the as simple as the Washington State noise ordinance gets.
14:58:21 Okay is is so W. within that L 25 metric.
14:58:26 The hourly sound level is somewhere between 29 and 52.
14:58:30 During the day with a Median value of 39.
14:58:34 So typically the L. 25 during the day is 39, where the code limit is 55.
14:58:40 So what is an l o 2 limit? then? l. 2 l, 2 l.
14:58:46 2 is the sound level exceeded 2% of the time.
14:58:50 So 2% of the time it's louder than 34 to 54 correct.
14:58:56 Okay, all right. So you know I I recognize it's kind of hard to boil a
subject as complicated as noise down to a single number.
14:59:04 But I think that's what you're trying to do with the number in parentheses
is that right?
14:59:09 That's correct we're trying to Get we're trying to characterize the
existing site.
14:59:11 To see how it compares to what the facility could produce, and still be
compliant with with with the optical regulatory criteria, which is 55 decibels, L.
14:59:23 25 during the day, 45 decibels, L.
14:59:26 25 at night, so the existing site is 39.
14:59:30 The project can be up to 55 during the day. you say the project can be up
to 55 that's some kind of like regulatory limit set by somebody.
14:59:44 Yes, the the kind of code adopts Washington Administrative code.
14:59:45 Chapter 1 73 60 as a threshold. for just determining a public nuisance.
14:59:53 So that's the regulatory criteria that 55 decibels in is here is your hard
stop.
15:00:00 If you're above that you're you're You're a noise, nuisance under the
code.
15:00:02 Is that right for the L. 25 Metric That's correct, and i'm seeing that Mr.
15:00:10 Jenkins under whack limit daytime it's 55, and at night time it's 45.
15:00:14 In other words, the Washington Administrative code, and by adoption the
Counties code in Jefferson County has a lower threshold for noise.
15:00:23 That happens, 25% of the time in an hour at night time that it does
daytime right, and that number is 45.
15:00:28 Very 45 in the daytime. right Yes, Mr. Examiner.
15:00:35 That's exactly correct. all right, i'm tracking you can move ahead, and
this signals Thanks.
15:00:38 So you know our what you might call our average ambient.
15:00:41 There, then is is, is 39 under existing non developed conditions during
the day, and our average ambient at night. Time is 30.
15:00:49 One is that fair? Yes, Okay, alright, so so that's the results of your
measurements.
15:00:58 Let's go here to your modeling results
15:01:08 I guess. Table 8. Well, maybe you'd better explain to us both.
15:01:13 What table? 7 and table 8 are. So table 7 discloses the sounds, strength,
if you will, for all the modeled noise sources that we use.
15:01:25 So if anyone wants to try to recreate this model, they could use that
information to determine that and other lists.
15:01:31 The the source that we use to develop that. So, for example, they are
compressed.
15:01:36 Air compressor uses a part of the Hac system. at a distance of 50 feet we
use the sound pressure level of 80 decibels.
15:01:45 The dump truck sound level. Is this it there as well? down to the
mechanical equipment which is based on a rooftop unit that the who would be serving
the facility or some sort of mechanical
15:01:58 equipment we don't know if it's gonna go on the roof.
15:02:00 We don't know if it's gonna go on a mechanical room, but some piece of
equipment that's going to be provided conditioning for the interior and closed
spaces is shown as having a a sound pressure level
15:02:11 89 decibels at 3 feet. So this this is giving the source strengths of the
individual pieces that we've modeled in our computer noise model.
15:02:21 The input data. If you table 8 is the output data.
15:02:25 So given the inputs, and our best guess is where this stuff might go on
the project.
15:02:34 I am using the information presented in the app in in the application and
record table.
15:02:38 It's our output. This is what we predict sound levels to be at at the
property line, which is what the the noise code isn't is where the noise code is
enforced that the noise could have established is sound
15:02:52 intruder into a receiving property at or within that receiving property.
15:02:56 It could be at the property line. it could be on someone's second story
window overlooking offense anywhere inside that receiving property is where that
those sound levels apply.
15:03:08 And then we also presented predicted sound levels as an output of the
noise model.
15:03:11 At the location, that we conducted the measurements, so that we could do a
fair comparison of what the facility may.
15:03:20 Emit in terms of fugitive noise emissions at that location compared to the
existing ambient that would characterize in our measurements.
15:03:35 And and I gotta kind of close the video here, so I can see.
15:03:38 So when i'm looking at this column that says property line, the
construction noise will make 63 decibels at the property line.
15:03:47 Right. That is what we estimate and construction noise would be 58 at the
ambient location which was the red dot on the map that we saw. Right?
15:03:54 Correct. Okay, then, you've plugged in the median existing sound level.
15:03:59 L. 25 that did you take that from that earlier table?
15:04:02 We were looking at. Exactly correct. Okay. And then I guess here in these
right 2 columns you're comparing, all right.
15:04:11 So like. If construction noise is 63 at the property line, how much louder
is that than 39?
15:04:15 Is that? what is that? What this is comparing Yes, Okay, so it's the
increase correct?
15:04:21 Alright. so I see, increases, for various sources of noise here, and the
different sources have different amounts of increase.
15:04:28 For example, the construction has an increase at the property line of 24
decibels, and an increase at the ambient location of 19.
15:04:37 The the generator has an increase of 16 and at the ambient location.
15:04:41 It's 11
15:04:47 In terms of how big of an increase is that? what? What does it mean for
something to say?
15:04:55 Increase by 60 decibels. So human responses to noise is is very
complicated.
15:05:04 It's widely accepted in in our community that a change of 8 to 10 decibels
is approximately twice as loud, So an increase of 8 to 10 Db.
15:05:13 Is twice as loud, and that that doubles and magnitude.
15:05:18 So if you go another 8 to 10 db it's 4 times this loud.
15:05:22 So if you're 16 to 20 db higher it's 4 times louder than what it is, and
that the actual effects of noise in terms of an increase are also affected by the
characteristic of sound.
15:05:35 So if you take the same sound and make it 8 Db.
15:05:38 Louder. Most people are gonna say hey? that's twice as loud, If you take a
fan and someone hammering you know it's it's it's much more of a potential issue
since you have the different characteristic of sound
15:05:53 so I wanna just just clarify that that 8 to 10 vegetables of doubling
assumes the same sound source.
15:05:59 Someone has a fan they turn it on. they turn it up 8 to 10.
15:06:03 Db: and now it's twice as loud okay so when you say, for example, that the
when they're running their generator, it'll be a 16 desktop.
15:06:16 Increase. It'll be 4 times louder than it is today at the property line is
that it am.
15:06:21 I basically interested get out of that thing and one other comment I'd
like to point out on that table, if possible. Mr.
15:06:32 Sales is. Look, while the modeling was used to try to quantify how loud
the project might be at the measurement location.
15:06:42 I just wanna make clear to the the hearing examiner that regardless of
modeling results.
15:06:48 It's helpful to compare the actual regulatory criteria, The ambient noise
levels right so the regulatory criteria that we looked at earlier of 55 during the
day and 45 at night his 16
15:07:04 decibels higher during the day than what's there now, and 14 desibles
higher during the night time than what's there now?
15:07:14 So regardless of modeling assumptions, and who use what truck?
15:07:18 And where was the mechanical unit, and how loud was it?
15:07:21 The fact of the matter is, this project can emit without any additional
permits, 55 during the day and 45 at night, which is, would present increases
regardless of of the modeling I just.
15:07:36 Wanted to make sure that that was clear. I don't quite fall It would
present increases, regardless of the modeling.
15:07:41 What do you mean? So we don't know exactly how loud this project is going
to be so?
15:07:46 We don't know exactly what the equipment will be, and where it will be
located But the project will be allowed under Jefferson County Code, which adopts
the Washington administrative code chapter 1 7,360
15:07:57 to be up the 55 Dba during the day It's.
15:08:01 A typical condition. L. 25, and up to 45 Dba.
15:08:04 At night as a typical condition under the L. 25 metric.
15:08:11 So regardless of of our predicted sound levels we've predicted sound
levels that are consistent with compliance with that code.
15:08:17 If other assumptions were made that had much lower noise emissions it's
it.
15:08:23 It's just important to be in mind that the project can be as loud as
what's allowed by code. And that's really the important element to assess potential
effects of the project is how loud could the project be without having to go
15:08:35 through another public review process. It could be 55 during the day and
45 at night.
15:08:42 And what kind of impact would that results in the community and the
answers substantial and adverse?
15:08:48 So I want to flesh that out a little bit.
15:08:50 So here on table 8 you've modeled the generator, noise at the property
line as 55 decibels as we just discussed, and, as you just said, under the
administrative code, you're allowed to make 55
15:09:02 decibels worth of noise to your neighbors so you know this this doesn't
strike me as like you know, facially unlawful.
15:09:09 Is it exactly. And yet, even though it's allowed under the the numeric
limits, you know, we still have to, you know, reckon with the with the reality that
that's you know a 16 decibel increase which is like 4
15:09:25 times as loud as as folks currently face. right? Exactly so in terms of
describing the magnitude of that impact, You know.
15:09:39 What does it mean for people enjoying their own property? you know walking
in their own woods, in their property, which they're allowed to do?
15:09:46 What does it mean to them to be faced with noise that's 4 times louder
than what they currently are?
15:09:51 Is that a big deal or not a big deal? It would be a big deal. We classify
that as a is a severe noise impact and would expect to result. The substantial
number of voice complaints, especially if the characteristic of sound
15:10:03 is is unique to the environment. not something that's commonly heard, but
just a decimal level alone would be would present advert adverse noise effects.
Would you say we you know the green bush group characterize it as a severe noise
impact you know
15:10:16 substantially greater, you know substantially adverse. What are you basing
that off of?
15:10:22 Well and cited in our report the Epa region to Eis Guidelines back from
the early seventies.
15:10:30 Initially tried to address this issue by establishing a tiered set of of
impact thresholds based on increase in the existing amate noise condition up to 5
decimal.
15:10:40 Increase it described, there being few complaints if a gradual increase, 5
to 10 decibels was more complaints, especially if, during sleeping hours, and over
10 decibel increase was expected to result.
15:10:54 The substantial number of noise complaints, and this was really focused on
the issue of community noise.
15:10:59 And these guidelines were thereby adopted by some jurisdictions, Not all,
but some jurisdictions adopted.
15:11:06 These, for example, Club, clark County took the plus 5 no we're not in
Clark County, just just providing some references under their under their sepa
guidelines. any increases of plus fives required so special noise
15:11:18 review the State of Oregon took a plus 10
15:11:23 So in in our experience you comparing these various increase thresholds of
different jurisdictions and agencies use plus 5 is maybe there's a noise impact
plus 10 or more.
15:11:35 Is there there most likely definitely would be a noise. impact and That's,
where eagerly see above 10 is is is is presenting a substantial, nice impact on the
environment.
15:11:48 And yet the Jefferson County code does not require this developer to
perform any,
15:11:55 Any noise mitigation measures right like there's nothing that says if
you're above 10 here, are the steps you have to take, there.
15:12:01 Is, Is there anything like that? no that's one of the issues with the
Washington State code is for very quiet environments.
15:12:08 It's not equally a it's not adequately protective.
15:12:11 Pursuant to sepa so if you've got a quiet noise environment.
15:12:13 Those those regulars, those regulations on the on their face by
themselves.
15:12:20 Do not present adequately protective regulatory criteria by which to
assess noise effects.
15:12:25 Unfortunately. so I mean if the code doesn't tell us what to do to address
this noise impact.
15:12:39 I suppose that that throws us into the realm of sepa.
15:12:44 What if anything, can a can a county do to assess and mitigate noise from
a project like this?
15:12:53 Oh, there's there's a lot that that could be done the project certainly
could have project specific sound level limits based on the very quiet existing
ambient environment.
15:13:06 So, instead of deferring to the Jefferson County go which adopts the
Washington Administrative code, specific project, sound level limits could be
developed to limit these increases.
15:13:16 For example, during the day If, the sound level couldn't be exceeded
existing sound level couldn't be exceeded by more than 10 descibles.
15:13:26 As an example, there could be project specific sound on most of 49
Decibels during the day and and and 41 festivals at night.
15:13:35 As an example, the orientation of the project and the citing, and, some of
those characteristic features of the facility could could also be condition to try
to reduce the noise footprint.
15:13:47 Well, you know, you talk about, you know, suggested conditions that could
that could apply to noise.
15:13:53 It just so happens the staff report has some i'd like to call those up and
get your take on them.
15:13:58 See if they address these numbers that you've come up with in the course
of your modeling.
15:14:01 So we'll go to 53 yes, sir, 53
15:14:06 And this will be condition. 24 proposed noise conditions I'm.
15:14:10 Going to put it up on the screen for you Mr. Jenkins. Don't worry about
calling it up yourself 8 alright, and I don't know if it's big enough for you Mr.
15:14:22 Jenkins to read. but here is a condition. 24 says here you know. the
applicant, you know, has to use best management practices.
15:14:35 Avoid any public nuisance. pursuant to 8.7 point 5.
15:14:40 Oh, do you see that? Yes, I do public nuisance means that it's above 55
decibels. right? correct.
15:14:46 Jefferson County Code defines a public nuances.
15:14:50 Sound levels that exceed the Washington state called limits. But
15:14:53 As if I understood your testimony correctly, you know adding 16 decibels
of noise, making it 4 times louder, will be a severe, noisy impact, even though it
doesn't violate this code limit right correct all
15:15:06 right. I noticed that they propose, you know, scheduling deliveries for
daylight hours only limiting the number of guests to 35, limiting the speed limit
to 15 setting hours for construction that all seems you
15:15:22 know reasonable. The one thing I wanted to ask you about kind of jumped
out at me here.
15:15:33 This condition. G. here says property owners shall monitor noise and other
related impacts.
15:15:40 What does that mean to you Well, I i'm not sure because it's it's not very
clear.
15:15:50 The language is is quite vague that could mean anything from the owner's
the one that that handles noise complaints to the owner intends on hiring a
professional consulting firm to monitor noise emissions
15:16:01 from from the project. It could fall anywhere within that within that
range.
15:16:06 Does anything in this condition 24 or anywhere else, for that matter.
15:16:14 Compel this developer to keep her noise levels to to a non severe level.
15:16:23 No, I was not able to locate any mechanism that would compel the the
property owner to make any changes with their operation, based on any noise.
15:16:34 Complaints with the results of any of any monitoring.
15:16:37 Simply that, hey? shall monitor No, his impacts but does does that strike
you as a as a effective mitigation measure to prevent a severe noise impact.
15:16:51 No, no, it doesn't what would be an example of a of a condition with some
real teeth in it that actually would avoid a severe noise impact.
15:17:04 If if the county wanted to take the monitoring approach a couple of
different ways to handle this, there's a study approach in the monitoring approach,
or a hybrid of both, where a study is actually done based on the specific
15:17:16 proposed equipment and final layout used to obtain the building permit.
15:17:21 When that type comes to predict noise emissions from the site, and to
design them down to meet some threshold, and presumably and recommended more
stringent than washing administrative code thresholds because due to the quiet
15:17:33 site environment that if if that weren't done and the monitoring approach
were were used instead, or in addition to a study approach, there would have to be
more details about how the monitoring program would be conducted are they actually
monitoring
15:17:47 noise actively as a continuous Is it once a quarter?
15:17:50 What are the conditions they choose to for the monitoring day or days, if
it's once a quarter to qualifications of personnel conducting the monitoring always
monitoring is a specialized field that anyone can find
15:18:04 either on Amazon. But to use it properly and know what you're measuring is
the the project, and not a motorcycle on the street, and these these are things
that come with experience.
15:18:14 And then also the reporting requirements. How often would these monitoring
reports be issued? would be a summary of noise complaints, and then,
15:18:23 If there are any issues that are revealed as a part of the monitoring
program, what sort of remediation measures would need to be taken by by the
property owner to resolve us no complaints or exceedances
15:18:35 of thresholds. What about setting a numeric noise limit?
15:18:39 Right, because right now 55 is the limit not because It's a permit
condition, but just because everybody's tied to 55. That's what the law is for us
all.
15:18:48 What about setting a neweric limit that is lower than 55?
15:18:52 How low would you have to go to prevent this severe noise impact? I I
wouldn't go any any I wouldn't go any higher than 10 decibels above what existing
ambient is so that would be 49 during the day 51
15:19:03 at night. Did you say that? 51 at night, 40, 49 during the day, and 41 at
night?
15:19:13 Apologies. 49, and 41, some some agencies would go ambient plus 5, which
would be down to 44 and 36 44 during the day, and 36
15:19:25 at night. but I wouldn't go higher than 10 decibels above What's there
now?
15:19:32 All right. And if there were a numeric noise limit set up along the lines
you describe, and a monitoring program to make sure that that was hit. let's say
the monitoring program detected that you know the the project is
15:19:50 is is louder than that limit. Is there anything that the operator of a
facility like this could do to reduce her noise levels?
15:19:58 Yes, some are easier to quiet than others. for example, traffic, noise
emissions are on site, traffic, noise, emissions from vehicles operating on site.
15:20:09 Those are more challenging to resolve after the fact because they're so
spread out.
15:20:12 It really takes a perimeter soundwall, and your neighbors see over it, and
those are the most challenging to address post occupancy.
15:20:20 But some of the easier ones to address might be, you know, rooftop
mechanical systems.
15:20:23 But even those would often require replacement, replacement of units or
installation of screen walls, which might present other visual effects.
15:20:33 So from a mathematical perspective, they're certainly resolvable.
15:20:37 But for from the implementation standpoint they tend. They do tend to
present some, some challenges.
15:20:47 But those challenges, I mean it strikes me couldn't you address those
challenges in the course of you know, studying this and designing your project, you
know, with noise limits in mind.
15:20:57 I mean, are these solvable problems to an engineer Oh, certainly, and that
that's the best place to handle it in our experience. That's and that's what we do
we we work on conditional use permit projects quite regularly whether it's
15:21:09 a hotel or a daycare, or some other wedding venue, some sort of permitted
use or conditionally permitted use to do a sound analysis during design to help
with the citing layout and look at the mechanical
15:21:20 equipment selections and help the mechanical engineer.
15:21:24 Locate those devices in a place that will ensure mental impact to the
surrounding environment. that's the best place to try to address them is is during
design prior to construction the last subject that i'll ask you about
15:21:37 is The developer came up with a with a rebuttal
15:21:43 This landau Report let's see what was the exhibit number of that thing.
15:21:49 This is the one that we were it's exhibit 66
15:21:58 So I don't want to walk the examiner line by line through this. I'm sure
we're going to hear from the author of this report in a nutshell, though on page 8
of the report they say there's only going to
15:22:06 be a one or 2 decibel increase not the you know 16 that you're finding
from one noise source and the 8 that you're finding from another one or 2 desibles
is not a very big increase is It Well, you say
15:22:20 there's gonna be a big increase. they they say there's gonna be a tiny
one.
15:22:24 Why the discrepancy? Well, the we, we! They made different assumptions
than we did in terms of what type of equipment would would go? where, for example,
they use a much quieter mechanical unit?
15:22:38 They? what in my experience, not one large enough to to serve a facility
of this size.
15:22:43 But they looked at the information available in theory with information
being fed from the applicant, and they came up with with these representative
selections.
15:22:52 But their numbers are a lot less because they use quieter noise sources,
and in their prediction.
15:22:58 And even below what will be allowed by the state code so that's one of my
concerns with this analysis.
15:23:06 Is this as well it could be this quiet it's not legally obligated to be,
but it could be, and if it were this quiet there wouldn't be any noise impacts
that's my biggest concern with with exhibit
15:23:16 66 is that tries to estimate how loud things might be by using some quiet
assumptions.
15:23:22 In my opinion, professional opinion, but it doesn't look at what the the
regulatory limit of what the project could emit, which is higher than their
predictions in table one, and the assumptions in exhibit 66 are those you know
15:23:36 bake into Permit conditions anywhere in the staff report, you know, like
staff report makes a condition.
15:23:42 You must use this tiny little unit that the that landau said anything like
that.
15:23:48 No, I mean that the vehicular traffic is slightly tied to some of the
elements of of the of the record.
15:23:54 But there is, I could not find anything in the record or in the staff
report that has the recommended condition to limit the sound emissions for any
specific type of equipment, whether it's a generator or a rooftop
15:24:07 mechanical unit or a garbage truck. Okay, Thank you.
15:24:11 No further questions. Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. now will be an opportunity
for Ms.
15:24:18 Kaylor or Miss Erlichman to ask any.
15:24:21 Follow up questions, Miss Kaylor. I believe this witness is yours.
15:24:26 First. hello, Mr. Jenkins, good afternoon i'm Courtney Kaylor,
representing the applicant, and I have just a few questions for you
15:24:52 And let's see apologies i'm trying to read my own writing.
15:24:56 I am going to pull up the report that you were just discussing with Mr.
15:25:09 Signals, and
15:25:23 Let's see here, let me find that topologies I think this is it.
15:25:27 Here we go. So first I wanted to look on page 11 of your report and
15:25:41 We had some discussion first in your report. you acknowledge
15:25:48 The Washington administrative code. sound levels Correct? Yes, and those
are sound levels that Jefferson County has adopted.
15:25:58 Correct? Yes, okay, and in your predicted sound level chart.
15:26:09 With the exception of construction, all of the sound levels are below.
15:26:17 Those levels Correct? Yes. Are there some exemptions as well?
15:26:24 In the Washington administrative code that apply and all, for example, are
there any exemptions for particular traffic not on sight?
15:26:33 Are there that? for offsite particular traffic?
15:26:38 If the if the vehicles are traveling on a public roadway, they would, they
would be exempt from the sound of a limits.
15:26:45 In chapter 1, 73, 60, and are there exemptions or assumptions correct for
the generator?
15:26:51 It depends whether or not it's permitted as an emergency generator set
which would be required for essential public health and safety.
15:26:58 Usually they're not usually their standby generator sets and usually those
are not exempt from code.
15:27:04 But it depends how the the generator set is is permitted.
15:27:08 Okay. with the exception of construction, all of these fall within those
limits.
15:27:11 Do they not? correct? Okay. and construction activities would be treated
separately wouldn't they under the code
15:27:30 In, and you can certainly tell me if you if you don't know this.
15:27:34 But and i'm not asking you here for a legal conclusion.
15:27:38 I'm simply asking for your understanding in your professional capacity,
but
15:27:44 Do you know, in addition to adopting these standards?
15:27:48 As nuisance standards. Has the city adopted these standards under Sepa?
15:27:52 Do you know, I do not know you mentioned I think the Epa region 10
guidelines has the has the county adopted those not?
15:28:08 That's my knowledge. No, Okay, they could have right if they wanted to
correct, and I may have Miss spoken one of my questions and said, City, if I did, I
apologize for talking about the county here and I assume that is
15:28:26 how you took my question. if I did misspeak I meant what you knew. Yes,
yes, thank you.
15:28:36 I like that, Grace. I Miss kaylor just to be really clear.
15:28:38 You're talking about your questions have to do with whether the county in
its code, has adopted certain reference documents as a basis to implement or to
mitigate something under authority.
15:28:48 Cpa authority. Is that correct? That is correct.
15:28:52 My my my question that Mr. jenkins didn't know the answer to was whether
the county had adopted its code, this portion of its code, or any portion of its
code as the basis for the exercise of its substantive
15:29:05 cpus already under undersea, and you asked about an epa region.
15:29:09 10 guide. Whether that had been adopted and he didn't know right
15:29:14 He, I believe, indicated that it had not been. but Mr.
15:29:18 Jenkins, i'll let you answer that question do you know, has Epa the Epa
region 10 guideline that you refer to in your reporting your testimony?
15:29:27 Has that been adopted by the county I I don't believe it has. but I don't
know I don't know for certain That's That's more helpful thank you
15:29:50 And you you mentioned the county code standards and that the project could
under the code. generate those noise levels under your own predictions.
15:30:04 They don't, though it's the the project would would it even under your
predictions.
15:30:08 Actually our predictions were really close to what would be permitted
under code.
15:30:15 If you'd like to refer to except at 29, I can walk you through that.
15:30:27 That's Okay, I will take your answer that they were close
15:30:35 And actually hang on. I think I have to I i've got to share.
15:30:40 And now stop share where we get this normal scream. pack.
15:30:44 Okay. Thank you.
15:30:55 You discussed the landlord and indicated that
15:31:03 Their sound levels were based on The assumption of some quieter equipment
than you assumed is this, that the only difference?
15:31:10 No, there. There was also a a difference with the assessment criteria.
15:31:16 Oh, it's to assess a noise impact that was another difference
15:31:24 I have no further questions. Thank you. Good. Thanks very much, Ms.
15:31:30 Kaylor, bizarre Litman, Do you have any questions for Mr.
15:31:33 Jenkins, I don't believe so thank you Okay, Mr. Jenkins, I have a question
for you. Mr.
15:31:43 Sidelines to ask you going forward if there were noise problems. How could
you deal with it?
15:31:50 And at 1 point you said, Well, it's better to deal with it on the front
end, on you mentioned mechanical and I think you were talking about mechanical
equipment.
15:31:58 And here, in this context, I would think of something like a an h back
system, heating and ventilation system for the structure and other things that
support the facility.
15:32:11 That's the type of equipment you're thinking about right.
15:32:14 Yes, Mr. Examiner, that's correct not not all inclusive.
15:32:18 But some of that stuff is there. is there a best practice in your industry
where i'm just gonna make it up.
15:32:26 Let's just say company a b and c companies a B and C. make mechanical
equipment that that heats and cools facilities like this.
15:32:37 But your studies have shown that equipment been made by Company A of the
scale needed here.
15:32:44 It's just always too loud, and you should never use a company a product.
15:32:47 Is there any some? Is there anything like that i'd hate to use an example,
but like a diesel car can be much loud.
15:32:54 A truck can be a lot louder than a regular gas fuel or an electric car on
Hvac.
15:33:01 Systems. Are there just certain brands or types of stuff that just
straight up?
15:33:06 You'd Say, gosh, I really wish the county would have asked him never to
use this type of system.
15:33:13 That's it's. really a question Mr. examiner so in my experience it has
more to do with the heating ventilation and cooling topology.
15:33:24 Then it does the brand. So is it a a heat pump on the outside and an air
handler inside?
15:33:31 Is that one big top roof, big rooftop unit that has the refrigeration
cycle and the compressors and the fans in addition to the fans of blow air inside
the bigot building is it a
15:33:42 these new variable refrigerant flow systems you've probably seen them on
the three‐story townhouses.
15:33:47 They have the unit that sits on the side of the the building with the the
duck that goes, the the refrigerant piping that goes inside the unit.
15:33:53 It really depends on the type of system that's often driven by the energy
code on on what the facility needs to provide to satisfy that energy code based on
their their orientation of the building where they are geographically the heat
15:34:08 load that they get on the different facades based on the glazing of the
types of windows that they use.
15:34:15 They really need to study that whole envelope to determine what sort of
system they need to provide.
15:34:18 The compliance with the energy code and my experience after they go
through that process.
15:34:23 There's usually only one or 2 of available and once the system type is
selected, based on that study.
15:34:31 There can be variation between manufacturers in terms of sound levels.
15:34:35 My get name‐specific manufacturers that I think would be required than
others, or you know for for ethical reasons.
15:34:40 But it. When we go through that mechanical engineering analysis, the
process is figuring out what type of system will comply with the energy code while
giving the the comfort level that the occupants are need for the for the type of
occupancy
15:34:57 and then working with the mechanical contractor or the vendor to get this
sound data for that equipment.
15:35:03 So it might seem like an abstract thing predicting that noise emissions
from mechanical equipment.
15:35:08 But we do it all the time, i've yet to run into a piece of mechanical
equipment, whether it's a heat pump, air handler, chiller, whatever it might be
that doesn't have some sound data it might have
15:35:19 been collected on the factory floor, and you know any in the the city that
they manufactured the equipment.
15:35:27 It might have been done in a lab but there's all I've always been able to
find something, and if I haven't.
15:35:32 I'll find a unit locally and go measure it so There's that information
that's available on the specific mechanical equipment that the applicant might
install that that analysis could be based on .
15:35:47 Please, for goodness sake, don't let them use a diesel air conditioner.
15:35:51 I'm just making that up but there's not you know something that you know
is a common option that buildings of this scale have the choice to use that you
believe to have just absolutely horrendous noise impacts And that you would
15:36:04 really prefer never to see it used, because it looks like your report
thinks that even when built, it's all going to be below that 55, 45 Db.
15:36:14 Threshold. Yeah, and unfortunately, no that that it's not that simple And
I, I will say that we've been involved in projects, post construction after
occupancy dealing with most complaints where it doesn't meet that unless
15:36:29 you're in the jurisdiction that requires a noise study to pull a
mechanical permit like the city of Seattle does.
15:36:34 There's there's no one to determine whether or not noise levels will be
compliant with code or not until it's built.
15:36:42 So it's unfortunately not something That's this looked at very, very
proactively. Okay, Mr. Sidel, do you have any follow up questions based on my
questions?
15:36:51 Or those of the other council. Yes, i'll follow up on your question first
Mr.
15:36:56 Examiner. so, Mr. Jenkins. it.
15:37:01 It seemed to me the exam. the exam was kind of looking for.
15:37:03 You know things that we could do, or things that we could avoid to bring
these noise levels down a little bit.
15:37:08 I took your answer to be well, maybe but it's It's complicated There's not
like a single silver bullet.
15:37:14 We can just fire into this thing. Is it possible, at least in theory, to
keep the noise increase of of a project like this below 10 decibels?
15:37:25 The severe noise threshold. Yes, all right, and then my other follow up.
15:37:33 Question was for one that Miss Kaylor asked.
15:37:35 She was asking about differences between your report and the exhibit.
15:37:39 66 landau report. She She identified the 2 differences.
15:37:43 The one was different assumptions about equipment.
15:37:48 They assume small, quiet equipment. and the other one you said that there
were assessment differences, and then she didn't ask any.
15:37:57 Follow up questions, but I want to. What? What did you mean by that?
15:38:01 So the landlord exhibit 66 used the impact impact assessment.
15:38:10 Methodology delineated in the Federal transit administration noise and
Vibration Handbook, and that was developed for transportation projects of various
modes, but not for community noise.
15:38:22 So It's math is is that transportation noise is baked into it.
15:38:26 So we're talking meter rail we're talking light rail buses, traveling on
public roadways or bus rapid transit, and dedicated right away.
15:38:37 We're talking highway projects. those types of transportation more public
transit projects is what that criteria was was developed.
15:38:45 For and that's that's the assessment framework they use to assess those
impacts.
15:38:51 And even if you take that criteria which I don't believe it's appropriate
to use that here because we're not dealing with the transportation project, we're
dealing with the local community development project If
15:38:59 you take that same framework and and enter the code limits into the
equations. you still get a severe impact.
15:39:10 So it doesn't change the answer if you look at how loud the project can
be.
15:39:15 For how quiet it might be, which was in the the table Let's see.
15:39:22 Sorry I had it up here, said at 66, where you go table one which we were
looking at before.
15:39:33 That had the predicted sound level of of 41 Ldn.
15:39:38 And just to add more to the alphabet soup.
15:39:40 Ldn is a different way of of describing noise emissions from the site
that's not used in the Washington State code.
15:39:49 The only jurisdiction I know that uses It is a city des Moines it's it's,
but it's heavily used for federally funded transit.
15:39:58 Projects, so that 41 and their table one isn't directly comparable to the
sound levels and ours which are predicting the L 25.
15:40:05 But the predicted ambient plus operational ldn value that they have in
table one that's column where they have 41, and 42.
15:40:15 If the project were as loud as a were as loud as allowed by the Washington
State code, those values would be 55, not 41 and 42.
15:40:28 So 55 Ldn. is, is what the Washington State code would be.
15:40:31 And if you put that value into the Fda, I create methodology.
15:40:38 Get a sphere impact. Alright, So that was that was the the difference for
the criteria.
15:40:43 The answer is, say as far as similar to what we got. but that's a
different route to get there tracking.
15:40:50 Thank you. No further questions.
15:41:00 Thank you, Mr. Siles. Mr. Jenkins. It was nice to meet you and hear your
testimony today.
15:41:06 I had to smile because i'm seated in the jurisdiction that uses that
different noise standard as we speak.
15:41:13 We have hope it is something called airport noise, anyway.
15:41:16 Okay, thank you all for your participation today. So far, Mr.
15:41:22 Silos you said this was your last witness today that's right Mr.
15:41:26 Examiner, and while my witnesses are all still listening in, I wonder if
we can, you know, try to map out our futures here a little bit.
15:41:34 It is now 3 41 I am Happy to continue today, unless somebody can tell me
that No, we need to just start tomorrow morning because we're going to go really
fast tomorrow morning.
15:41:47 But I know people have been listing and they're fresh and ready to go, and
i'm willing to continue so under the pre agreed format, as Taylor, the applicant
was going to move next with your responsive witnesses and testimony and
15:42:02 exhibits as part of the sepa appeal next.
15:42:04 So would you like to move forward this afternoon, or not We would like to
move forward this afternoon, and my understanding from talking with Mr.
15:42:14 Sidel's last week, and before is that his noise expert is only available.
15:42:19 Mr. Jenkins, who just talked with, is only available after 2 each day.
15:42:23 So I think what makes the most sense is for us to start with our noise
expert that way.
15:42:30 We we don't have to all come back at 2 o'clock tomorrow to do noise and if
if we then have additional time.
15:42:39 I will call our Wetlands, and then our transportation experts until we run
out of time today.
15:42:47 And Courtney, my wedding and expert, tells me that she is only available
tomorrow afternoon as well.
15:42:51 So if we can't get through wetlands today.
15:42:56 And we do have to do a second day afternoon. is looking like it looks a
lot better for my witnesses. not me.
15:43:02 I'd rather do it. the morning missouri i'm wondering if we can have a
dispensation for bringing on one witness from the county.
15:43:14 This afternoon. it's the public works director who has a sewer to get up
and going in the next 2 years, and has a big meeting tomorrow, and would really
like to get his testimony out of the way.
15:43:29 How much time do you think you need for him, Mr. Lincoln?
15:43:33 Half an hour Do the parties, Miss kaylor you will willing to accommodate
public works director this afternoon. Let's try to limit the test. Let me do it as
fast as you can. I'd like this.
15:43:46 To be wrapped up today by something like 445, if not 4, 30.
15:43:52 Today, cause we take a short lunch. and I have some other business that
need to attend to 4 or 5 clock rings.
15:43:59 So are the parties okay with that if we call the Pope works director
today.
15:44:06 Alright, i'm not seeing anybody screaming yell at me so we'll do that is
there like many if you could call the public works director, and we will take their
testimony this afternoon.
15:44:15 Certainly I call Mr. Monty Rinders to the stand
15:44:23 Do. I have Mr. Rinder on video here he's on a ski slope there.
15:44:29 We go the background. there we go That's okay, all right, Mr.
15:44:36 Reinder. have you been listing the testimony through the day?
15:44:40 Today I listen to the portion I just wanted to know.
15:44:45 Have you heard my rules and guidelines to everybody yet?
15:44:48 No, alright. so you're about to testify and is there like one's gonna be
allowed to ask you some questions after she's done.
15:44:56 Then it will be an opportunity for the applicant attorney, Ms. Kaylor, to
ask you questions.
15:45:02 Then Mr. Sydles can ask you any questions. He represents the appellants,
and Mazarin will get be given a chance to follow up with you if she needs to do
that.
15:45:11 Okay, if you hear the word objection from anybody, stop talking.
15:45:14 Let me address it, and I will come back to you and say whether you can
continue and how.
15:45:21 But and please don't speak over one another if somebody's talking, and if
you want to answer something, say may I finish my statement?
15:45:28 Or can I continue? Ask the question, and i'll ask them to stop talking so
you can answer if you want to.
15:45:32 Okay, Alright, alright, Mr. Reyers, i'm gonna put you under oath here.
15:45:37 Do you swear or affirm that testimony you're about to give today will be
the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth?
15:45:43 Yes, I do thank you for being here this afternoon, Miss Ellie? when he's
your with us.
15:45:53 Okay, Mr. Miners, where do you work? And what is the top?
15:45:55 Your job title. I work at Jefferson county public works I'm, the public
Works director and the county engineer, and how long have you been county engineer?
15:46:07 Excuse me, and since since 2,004, and how long have you been public works?
15:46:12 Director right? and during your time at public works have you ever had the
an occasion to review a proposed development for transportation related impacts to
roads.
15:46:26 Yes, that's something we do on a regular basis.
15:46:30 Okay, and so do you have any sort of guestimate of how many that might be.
15:46:40 Oh, that's hard to know. I mean we do several per year.
15:46:44 There were fewer during the recession, and and of course more when the
economy's hot, you know we're a rural county.
15:46:50 So development proceeds at a a slower pace in some areas.
15:46:54 But we do several per year on average let's just put it that way.
15:47:01 And have you reviewed traffic impacts under the State Environmental Policy
act?
15:47:09 Or Yes, our our office has done that. Okay? Mr.
15:47:14 Examiner, I would ask that you, qualify Mr. Renders as an expert on
traffic impacts of any any follow up questions from Mr. Sidel's.
15:47:25 Or Miss Kaylor on this individual's qualifications as an expert.
15:47:31 Here we go. I didn't hear any then I will accept him as an expert in this
early one.
15:47:37 Thank you. Can you describe the process that you or your department goes
through in reviewing a development application for transportation related impacts?
15:47:50 Sure. I mean, that typically depends on the traffic volume that the
project might create.
15:47:54 I mean if the tr if the project has a potential to create a significant
traffic volume that might have impacts that have to be mitigated, or at least
investigated, or justification for why they wouldn't need to be
15:48:10 mitigated. We, would ask the applicant to provide a transportation impact
analysis by done by a professional engineer with traffic engineering experience,
and we would review their work to make sure it conforms to you know, generally
accepted
15:48:29 engineering practices, and our understanding of how our road system works.
15:48:35 You know we We would look at the typical manuals, the Institute of Traffic
engineers.
15:48:43 It e trip generation, manual washed out design manual hashtag, manual
highway capacity man.
15:48:49 You'll make sure that they're engineers following those industry accepted
practices on a small development which we don't believe is going to have
significant traffic development volumes, or impacts.
15:49:03 We, may not require a Tia traffic impact assessment, and just make that
determination on our own.
15:49:09 That the project is unlikely to have significant impacts of for traffic,
which is what we did in this case.
15:49:20 Thank you. Mr. Examiner, i'm wondering if I could get the screen share
capability.
15:49:37 No, if I can find my document, there it is, and it says you started screen
sharing, and I see a document on my screen.
15:49:50 So I pulled up what is exhibit 17 in the record looks to be a memo from
your department.
15:49:58 It's signed by one John fleming pe can you tell us who that is.
15:50:04 John Fleming is a engineer 3 in our department.
15:50:10 He's a capital Projects manager who also does development Review.
15:50:16 We review track transportation impacts and stormwater impacts when
requested by department of community development on typically commercial
applications or long plot subdivision applications.
15:50:29 Okay, and So so can you also testify to the findings in this memo?
15:50:41 Yes, I mean yes, I concur with the the findings and the observations of
John Fleming, who works for me. Okay.
15:50:48 Great let's let's talk about transportation impacts.
15:50:56 I know there's 2 sort of areas that this memo covers. One is stormwater,
and the other is transportation.
15:51:02 But I think we're here to talk about transportation so let's roll down to
it's page 2 85 in the record.
15:51:13 And exhibit 17 let's let's look at some of these.
15:51:23 What was, what was the process that you use in this case?
15:51:28 To look at transportation impacts Well, again. I think it's pretty well
summarized.
15:51:35 Here. John looked at the traffic volume, speed, accident, history, site,
distance, all those factors.
15:51:43 To determine that the the driveway. essentially it's being proposed here
in the traffic associated with it serving this proposal would not have a
significant impact.
15:52:00 On this roadway, or its operation? and what about the level of service and
obey road?
15:52:10 According to most recent estimates right it says it's operating at level
of service, a which is the best level of service you can, you know.
15:52:18 Possibly have from a capacity standpoint, County road should operate at
level of service, c.
15:52:26 Or better which it is, and it will continue to to do without this
development.
15:52:36 Okay? and and what was the amount of traffic that your department
estimated that this project would generate?
15:52:46 It's in the memo here isn't it isn't it 48 trips per day.
15:52:55 I believe that is correct. I think it's right down here the turn of the
page, and I don't
15:53:02 I know you were present for Mr. tillman's test money earlier today?
15:53:09 Is that correct? Yeah, I listen to most of it. Okay, He seems to dispute
that those numbers.
15:53:16 Can you talk a little bit about? Why, you believe your numbers might be
more accurate than his.
15:53:26 Well, I mean, I think, that are numbers. Reflect our understanding of how
this facility is going to be used.
15:53:36 And some of the numbers that he was using right worst case scenarios or
scenarios that Aren't even contemplated in this application.
15:53:48 I I would point out, though, that the difference between this number and
the number he was stating, which was, you know, up in the nineties, or something
like that.
15:54:01 Don't have a meeting difference and the effect on the way obey road
operates as far as level of service or any of the requirements that would
potentially be there for mitigation, or anything it's just it's still
15:54:16 a low volume, Access off of obey road.
15:54:22 Yes, not expected to have significant impacts. I mean. look any
intersection with the county road.
15:54:33 A driveway with one home on it. you know can create a conflict.
15:54:39 But it's not a reason to put a moratorium on building everything you know
in the county.
15:54:45 I mean traffic is traffic, whether it comes from a single family
residences, or also like this.
15:54:53 These are low traffic volumes that we're talking about on a road opay road
that has that's operates at a really high level of service, and the level of this
driveway is in a long straight away with great sight distance so
15:55:08 we just don't see significant impacts associated with this proposal.
15:55:18 Okay, You mentioned accident rates. Were another factor that you look at
in this analysis.
15:55:27 Can you talk about those accident rates on Oak Bay Road?
15:55:32 Just briefly again they're they're summarized here and they show that the
accent rate and obey road is significantly lower than a county or county road,
averages or State highway apples
15:55:47 it's again operating very safely at this location.
15:55:54 Okay, alright. So let's move on to talk specifically about driveway
alignment, and to do that I'm gonna pull up.
15:56:07 Exhibit 67 in the record, which is the transpo memo, which has an
excellent
15:56:18 Diagram on page 8, 51 in the record. Anybody who wants to try to pull it
up you say are you *? *? Correct.
15:56:36 Please use the full date stamp number I know that's some sort of people
leave off a number.
15:56:41 Yeah, i'm sorry it's 0 0 8 5 one all right.
15:56:46 Mr. Renders, Have you seen this figure before?
15:56:50 Yes, and what is this that we're looking at proposed side access on the
left?
15:57:01 There it's labeled side access and it depicts obey road pick black line
running vertically on the page and it depicts a couple of driveways that are
existing on the right side.
15:57:17 Okay. So to believe. Mr. Tillman, had an issue with the driveway
alignment.
15:57:25 Can you articulate what his concern was? He was essentially stating that
in a ideal situation access points would be directly across from each other.
15:57:42 Or even better. they wouldn't they'd be separated significantly.
15:57:49 So they more or less function like t intersection.
15:57:52 So you never end up with a situation where 2 cars are facing each other
across obey road.
15:58:00 You know, trying to decide what to do at the same time.
15:58:06 Did you agree with his analysis on that I would Say, that in a perfect
world? that is, ideal. But that you have essentially driveways here that are
essentially lined up with each other?
15:58:25 There's a very slight offset but it's so slight I would say, it's in
material and the reason for that offset.
15:58:35 Is that there's a culver under obey road just to the south of the proposed
app that keeps it from prevents it from being located a few feet further south.
15:58:48 But again we don't have a requirement that driways line up directly across
from each other.
15:59:00 It's it's it's just it's nice to have, but it's it doesn't always exist in
the real world, and these are low volume approaches where it shouldn't be an issue
there
15:59:18 are many, many driveways and approaches that don't line up with each
other.
15:59:23 That function just fine, including a number of i'm on obey road.
15:59:30 I know there's some just to this south of this project location where
there's multiple driveways coming out staggered you know i'll see you speed up
apart from each other, and and and
15:59:44 it's function just fine for years again. primarily because these are low
volume approaches on a road that has that's functioning that level of service a
with a lot of gaps for traffic to enter and exit from the
16:00:00 roadway. Okay? If if this were 2 major accesses across from each other on
a busy road, it would be more of an issue.
16:00:15 But we don't have that situation here. sorry to interrupt go ahead. That's
okay.
16:00:25 And I think he did testify also that there was a potential for a rear in
collisions.
16:00:28 Do you see that as a safety problem? Well, every potential collision is is
a safety issue server, and there's a potential for collision at every driveway.
16:00:45 On Oak Bay Road and every other road. For that matter, transportation
traffic.
16:00:52 Engineers have established warrants for when you know, turn pockets right
or left. turn pockets are required, because they understand that you can't require
every person who built a driveway to build a left turn lane on
16:01:09 a county road or state highway to access their property, which is, you
know, the safest way to to do it, certainly.
16:01:20 And as Mr. tillman's report stated there the the volumes here, whether you
use the ones that we used are the ones that he suggested could occur in a worst
case.
16:01:34 Scenario do not come close to meeting the warrant for needing to install
left, turn pockets or other mitigation measures.
16:01:45 Like that. Okay. Another issue he brought up was waste collection concern.
16:01:55 That garbage pickup could cause hazardous conditions on a bay road.
16:01:59 Do you see this as a problem? Well, I mean everyone who lives on Oak Bay
Road.
16:02:09 Can have garbage service right now. Not all of them do.
16:02:14 They also all have. Many of them have male service. All of these vehicles
are stopping along the shoulder of the road to pick up garbage.
16:02:21 Deliver mail residents to pick up mail it's how rural county roads like
this work.
16:02:31 And so if they want to put the typical couple of cans out there on the
edge of the road for garbage to pick up like other people are doing, we do not see
that being a problem.
16:02:46 We're not gonna let them put a large dumpster on the edge of the road, or
something like that and I don't.
16:02:53 I haven't seen that that's the proposal at all.
16:02:56 Anyway. Okay. I think the lockable gate issue is sort of resolved as the
applicant the settings. they're not going to install one, so we'll move on from
there.
16:03:11 What about gravel on the driveway from the driveway onto Oak Bay Road?
16:03:16 I think he mentioned. That is perhaps a safety issue sure, and we'd like
to see every driveway approach paved, but we only require paved approaches on
commercial approaches like this one, and as our permit access
16:03:34 permit states they will be required to pave an apron on this roadway.
16:03:41 Back about 20 feet from the edge of Oak Bay road to prevent the gravel
from being carried onto the roadway.
16:03:51 It also protects the shoulder. Vote bay road so you don't end up with a
pothole right where you get the transition from pavement to to asphalt right on the
edge of the
16:04:02 shoulder of the road. So that's a typical mitigation Strategy, again, is
paving the approach which is required in this case for this project.
16:04:13 Okay, and There was a concern also that he mentioned about cyclists on a
bay road and and safety hazards based on the increase in traffic.
16:04:24 From this development. Do you have any comments on that Well, I mean
That's the increase in traffic from this proposal is not significant as a
percentage of the total traffic traveling on this road.
16:04:46 There are people cycling on roads with, you know, 3 to 4 times the amount
of traffic that obey road is carrying.
16:04:55 You know. I mean it's cyclists do use oak Bay Road, and they do so
understanding the risks of doing that.
16:05:06 And I you know it's it's not a reason that all development along Oatha
road should be stopped.
16:05:15 Whether it's additional single family homes or a proposal like this.
16:05:20 You know it's just it's part of how roads operate.
16:05:27 They're designed to carry cars and cyclists can use the shoulders that you
know again.
16:05:31 There's very good site distance at this location other locations.
16:05:37 I don't pay road you know they have curves It has narrow shoulders, and
that's just how it is.
16:05:44 We don't have any plans to upgrade any time in the near future.
16:05:54 Thank you. I just have one more exhibit. I wanna pull up really quick in
this is a little bit going backwards to the driveway issue driveway alignment.
16:06:05 See if I can find
16:06:10 Great.
16:06:19 Is everyone seeing the exhibit 30 on my screen?
16:06:23 Okay, i'm gonna scroll down to page o 5 to believe this is oh, 5, 2, 5 and
16:06:40 I believe this was identified this morning by Miss terry Ross as her
driveway.
16:06:48 That's pretty much across from the postona woods driveway.
16:06:56 So anybody object to that characterization
16:07:07 Thank you. I guess that's okay. then, i'm gonna then scroll down to page o
5 2 6 where we see a car coming out of that same driveway.
16:07:21 And Mr. Reinders, I don't know if you were present for this part of the
testimony.
16:07:26 But Miss Ross testified that she has to nudge up, you know, basically
close to the side of the road in order to turn on to obey road because of that dip
in the driveway that we saw back on sorry for the scrolling
16:07:43 back on o 5, 2, 5. You could see the dip right here.
16:07:48 And I I think you know the the concern is magnified because of the
development across the road.
16:07:57 And potential for conflicts. and Do you have any observations on this
driveway?
16:08:03 And what might be done about it
16:08:11 Well, I mean it's it looks like it approaches out bay road fairly steeply,
and doesn't have much of a the landing spot.
16:08:20 So I don't doubt what the property owner said that she has to get pretty
close to the fog line on obey road, to be able to see effectively you know up and
down the road that that's not going to be the
16:08:33 case with the Pomona woods. Drive way. it has A. When When you look at the
other photo you can see that it has a, you know, approaches the road at a pretty
reasonable grade there, and they step excellent
16:08:47 site distance from their approach. you know, when the property owner on
the opposite side of the road does get up close enough to pay road.
16:09:01 It looks like They'll have very good site distance both up and down out
Bay Road and across the road at the Pomona Drive Pono Pomona Woods driveways.
16:09:11 So there's you know there is good side distance that driveway there.
16:09:17 Could be well modified to have a a longer flat area coming up to Bay Road.
but that would probably Costa cost some money to do that.
16:09:30 They'd have to fill in that that dip there that you had you know again, I
think once once that property owners up close to Bay Road.
16:09:43 It looks like they they have pretty good side distance there. Thank you.
16:09:50 I do not have any more questions for this witness. Okay, Ms.
16:09:56 Kaylor, do you have any questions for Mr. Riders?
16:10:00 I just one brief follow up. Oh, and if I may share a document so my share.
16:10:14 Hello, Mr. Reiners, i'm gonna just pull up a document.
16:10:19 This is county exhibit 38, and for the record. This is Courtney Kaylor,
the attorney for the applicant.
16:10:28 Good afternoon. I am showing you county exhibit 38 which, as you can see
is entitled.
16:10:36 Access permit, and I just wanted to ask you a couple things about this
document.
16:10:41 Is this the access permit that was issued by the county for the currently
installed driveway approach?
16:10:49 Yes, and I just wanted to note there on the conditions. Condition number
one references.
16:10:59 A covert. Is that the culvert you said the dry L needed to stay away from?
16:11:03 Yes, and then looks like a little bit further down and condition number 3.
16:11:13 The second sentence there that the driveway shall be paved.
16:11:18 And then of 10 feet. Is that the paving condition that you referenced
earlier on in your Testament?
16:11:25 Yes, I guess I mistake. only said 20 feet, but it says 10 feet here.
16:11:29 So Nevertheless, there's a paving requirement. Okay, thank you. I just
wanted to highlight this exhibit.
16:11:38 Oh, apologies! It was a county exhibit 38, Thank you.
16:11:46 Anything else. Ms. Kaylor. nothing further thank you Mr.
16:11:52 Sidel's do you Have any questions for the public works Director.
16:11:58 Yes, thank you, Mr. Rinders. is this driveway location. The only possible
driveway location the applicant could use.
16:12:07 I don't know
16:12:24 You directed our attention to exhibit 17
16:12:29 Where you estimated 48 average daily trips.
16:12:32 Do you recall that being your number? Yes, and that number was predicated
on there being 16 guests in the in the facility correct?
16:12:46 I believe so. Are you aware that the maximum capacity of the facility is
35 guests?
16:12:55 I guess that's what I heard earlier today. Yes, alright, No further
questions. Thank you.
16:13:04 Okay, Thank you, Mr. Silas mike's on is there like been he's your witness?
16:13:11 Do you have any redirect? I do not. Thank you very much.
16:13:18 Okay. So Mr. Rinders, you were welcome. to Stay the rest. But it looks
like they're done asking you questions.
16:13:26 So thank you for being here. We hear you have a sewer project that you
need to turn your attention to.
16:13:30 So best of luck handling that. Thank you, sir. Alright, take care of Nice
to meet you online today.
16:13:35 All right. so we'll go back to ms Kaylor.
16:13:41 We accommodated a county witness, and Ms.
16:13:44 Kaylor. You indicated that you would like to begin your witnesses today.
16:13:48 It's now? 4, 15. Is there a witness? you think you could call today and
run for about a half hour?
16:13:53 Or is that not gonna make sense for you Why don't we try calling our our
noise witness?
16:14:03 I'm not 100% sure we will be done within that period of time.
16:14:08 But let's let's. give it a try Alright, would you call your next witness
absolutely. we call a Kevin Warner, and just the learner. Let's see.
16:14:23 Do I see? there you are. Let me would you say your name Mr. Warder.
16:14:27 You'll show up on my Speaker Screen yeah my name is Kevin Warren.
16:14:32 Alright, Mr. Warner, with you, grace right hand, do you swear or affirm
the testimony of your about to get today would be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth.
16:14:39 I do. And have you been listening to much the testimony today?
16:14:45 Yes, I have. And did you hear my explanation of the guidelines for
witnesses?
16:14:50 Yes, I did. i'm not gonna repeat myself. I will expect that you know what
the game is here.
16:14:56 So Ms. Kaylor. He's your witness Move forward.
16:14:59 Thank you, Mr. Warner. Could you please first briefly describe your
qualifications and experience?
16:15:07 Certainly. I am a principal consultant with landau associates incorporated
based on Seattle.
16:15:15 I am a specialist in environmental noise and vibration, and have been
consulting for about 24 years on on a wide range of noise projects throughout
Washington State.
16:15:29 Other parts of the Us. and in Canada projects range from development such
as these: 2 construction sites, industrial developments, and and the like.
16:15:41 Thank you. I'm gonna briefly share my screen i'm showing county exhibit
one can you tell me what this is.
16:15:52 This is my Cv. with my daughter associates thank you I'm.
16:15:57 Now. stop sharing here for a moment. I can you tell me what you've done to
prepare for your testimony today.
16:16:05 Sure to prepare for my testimony, I reviewed the study that was prepared
by Greenbush as well as reviewed background regulatory documents referenced in that
study the epa guidance document
16:16:20 those or 2 earlier Jefferson County code noise ordinance Section as well
as site plans that were available at the time for the promoter.
16:16:31 Winds, development
16:16:35 Thank you. And did you connect to site? does it?
16:16:43 April of this year. and the site was to observe, and qualify the noise
environment, as well as take some of the measurements of our own to confirm that
were conducted by the green. bush.
16:16:58 But for for their study. and generally get a sense for the label and and
the proximity of the adjacent process properties.
16:17:10 Okay. And and were you here earlier today to hear Mr. Jenkins testimony?
16:17:16 Yes, I was okay And and then, Did you also prepare an assessment of of
noise effects?
16:17:26 Yes, I Did I I think it's a bit 66 right, and I will go ahead and share
that exhibit.
16:17:36 That is your resume, and here is the report.
16:17:44 That you have just referenced Correct? Okay. So I would like, ask you to
review your report.
16:17:55 And first can I ask you just generally what you did to compare this
report?
16:18:02 Certainly. So to prepare the report. as I said, we went out to the site to
evaluate the as they existed in April of this year at the site prior development
16:18:16 We conducted our own effective noise. Model the same model that was used
by the Apollo the cat in a age noise model.
16:18:26 Where we plug in sound levels, representative of sources.
16:18:33 Sound sources. that might be at the facility.
16:18:35 But it's an operation. and not just mechanical equipment, but also other
things like voices traffic.
16:18:44 Things like that try to understand quantitatively what the sound levels
would be at the I think you're by property lines.
16:18:51 And we use those models to compare with the and data that was affected by
Green Bush.
16:18:59 We we use. We started our own data as well. but for the study to be
consistently used to green bush data.
16:19:06 To document the noise levels and then we completed.
16:19:13 In this assessment of impact based on listed in here on the Fta assessment
criteria, which I can speak to a little bit more.
16:19:22 Later on. to understand what the increase in noise might be.
16:19:28 Over 24 h period once the come on with development.
16:19:34 Is built in operational
16:19:37 Thank you. i'm gonna skip ahead over here and ask you to discuss potential
noise, effect criteria, and specifically to respond to the criteria that were used
in a green bush.
16:19:57 Report. Sure. So yeah. So this is this section talks about the criteria
that we use the Epa region 1019, 73 document
16:20:10 And I went and took a deeper look into that document, and how it was
developed and with the metrics are based on Pause you here for a moment.
16:20:19 I am showing page 2 of the exhibit that we've been discussing exhibit 66
and the epa standards that you're discussing.
16:20:31 Those were the ones used by green Bush. Correct? Well, I I should clarify
the the The standards are referenced in the green bush.
16:20:40 Report. it's it's not clear that the standards were applied to evaluating
reference to end the the 3 categories of impact or reference center report.
16:20:56 And in looking further at these that these standards the 1,973 guidelines.
they're based on as it's summarized in in bullet number one there at the bottom of
the
16:21:04 screen based on an earlier document. that summarizes the the the the basis
for a 24 h cnnial if they, if the day nights down level with a 5 db penalty added
to sound
16:21:22 levels between 7 and 10 Pm. and a 10 Db.
16:21:26 Penalty app to sell levels between 10 pm 7 am It's often used to evaluate
and overall 24 h sound level for continued exposure to a the vicinity of noises
such as you know
16:21:41 traffic or state airports or other facilities that might operate
continuously.
16:21:49 The cnnial increases that 0 to 5, 5 to 10, and greater than 10 are the
increase pieces that are that are identified in the green bush. study.
16:22:02 So that's a 24 h sound Well, The the question I had was the if the those
are based on 24 h.
16:22:11 But the that the impact predictions are based on evaluating those
categories of increase with an L 25, which is the, as was explained earlier today.
16:22:21 Salvable would see the 25% of the time, and often it's 25% of an hour or
15 min.
16:22:28 And and so, comparing 24 h, see any L impact criteria with a salad with
you to 15 min with any 1 h.
16:22:40 Did not seem quite appropriate, and so just to be sure that I understand
Here, when Mr.
16:22:48 Jenkins was talking about there being a severe noise impact.
16:22:51 He was looking at evaluation criteria that are based on this 24 h.
16:22:58 See now exactly the measurements he would or the noise levels.
16:23:04 He was actually calculating. were not 24 h averages.
16:23:09 Is that is that right? My understanding is the the the the report.
16:23:14 Was based on the cada modeling that was done to support that report which
produced a salable.
16:23:22 That's the seem to be continuous over the course of an hour.
16:23:24 So it succeeded by more than 25% of an hour, or the L 25.
16:23:28 So the sound levels listed in that report can be interpreted to be an L.
16:23:32 25 sound level for the basis of comparing the the adopted wax standards.
16:23:39 With Jefferson County adopts. But then, also we're seem to be used to
evaluate against these 24 h noise metrics.
16:23:51 Okay. And so again, just try to bring it to my lawyerly level of
understanding.
16:23:58 The standard is 24 h, but the the calculated levels are not based on a
24 h average.
16:24:04 Is that right? that's right and so in your opinion Would there be a more
appropriate standard to use?
16:24:18 Yes, I think so. The Standard. but I think that might be more appropriate
is something like the Fta Standard.
16:24:25 Yeah. paycheck. W. Fta: Yes, it is.
16:24:28 It is developed by the Federal transit for your administration.
16:24:31 But It is often used as one of the only guidance documents out there that
allows for assessment of increase over existing sound level and accounts for
changes in the existing environment.
16:24:45 And a low noise and the environment. would tolerate a higher increase in
noise than, say, a high noise and the environment
16:24:55 And so the Fu manual has essentially a sliding scale of allowed increases
before it might consider a nice level to be an impact.
16:25:05 Because the development that we're talking about would be in place for
number of years, we can consider us a long term change in the environment.
16:25:15 So we look at that using the same criteria that we might look at, say, for
a new highway where there might be a long term change in the noise environment with
the new highway.
16:25:24 And so, by applying those great criteria and using the green book, and
that we're measured as a basis for the for the threshold.
16:25:36 Using that fighting scale. we can come up with the more accurate
assessment of whether or not might occur.
16:25:44 Okay, and I want to back us up just a minute before we talk a little bit
more about the Fta Manual.
16:25:51 So in Mr. Jenkins testimony.
16:25:56 Did you hear him discuss the actual adopted county standards?
16:26:03 He he did. and Would you agree that projected sound levels from the
project?
16:26:10 Meet county standards. I do agree. And and would those be one appropriate
set of standards to to use?
16:26:23 When determining whether there are significant adverse impacts to
determine whether or not there's significant average impacts.
16:26:32 The and it, if we were just to look at the the applicable sound level
limits.
16:26:36 Those criteria certainly apply and certainly are our valid way to evaluate
that.
16:26:44 Okay. So Now, setting aside the county adopted standards and now, we're
talking about, If we're going to look for a standard that's not actually the
counties adopted standard, it sounds like you would disagree that
16:26:56 these epa region, 10 guidelines are a proper standard.
16:27:02 Correct And so then, moving to discuss in a little bit more detail the Fta
standards that you had started to talk about before I interrupted you.
16:27:12 I heard Mr. Jenkins say, those are those are just for traffic.
16:27:17 Is that right I don't believe that's correct they have been adopted.
16:27:22 Beyond just transportation projects. they are often used to me they're
developed by the app there to be used on projects that are incredibly funded
transit projects such as you know new rail or airports and things like
16:27:35 that but they are often used outside of those confines because of the what
I to earlier.
16:27:44 There's very few guidance documents out there that allow for where they
offer an assessment methodology for looking at increases over existing levels for
long, long term increases in noise exposure and i'm gonna ask you about your
16:28:02 assessment of noise impacts utilizing those criteria in a minute.
16:28:06 But first just sticking with the order of your report here I'm gonna ask
you whether there are any other issues that you saw with the green bush analysis.
16:28:18 And we will start here on on. apologies.
16:28:33 Are you available with this witness to go through to 5 o'clock If I asked
you all to let me have a 5 to 7 min break right now, because I do need to take
something take care of something to 4 or 5 and I think now
16:28:44 is better to be waiting till 5 s before 5 o'clock.
16:28:49 If we took a 5 to 7 min break I could stay after 5.
16:28:51 If you're available. as Well, but is that acceptable my apologies. Hi!
16:28:55 I'm available, Mr. Warner, are you available Yes, I am alright.
16:29:00 So let's go ahead and take a 5 to 7 min break right now.
16:29:04 It will come back. so. Miss Kayla can continue her testimony of Mr.
16:29:08 Warner. Thank you. My apologies
16:33:54 And I see the screen shows we're recording so we had a 5 min break there
for me to take care of a different matter of business.
16:34:03 We're all squared away. and i'm happy to stay online with the hearing.
after 5, if we need to to wrap up the direct examination of Mr.
16:34:12 Warner. This Kaylor, do you think that's possible today.
16:34:15 Finish your direct, e So returning to our testimony here absolutely so.
16:34:27 Mr. Warner, where we left off before the break is.
16:34:31 I was going to ask you to identify other issues that you saw with the
Green Bush report, and then I will have you to discuss your own noise analysis.
16:34:44 So first let me go ahead and share again your report.
16:34:49 We had just left off talking about the use of the epa region.
16:34:57 10 guidelines and the issues with that. can I ask you now, did you
identify any issues regarding the inclusion of construction noise?
16:35:15 I did with construction noise. construction is exempt from the Jefferson
County code construction from construction.
16:35:27 Excuse me. between the hours of 7 Am. and 10 Pm.
16:35:31 The green Bush study does indicate this correctly in it's it's taxed and
identifies but but it's still goes ahead of models construction to evaluate it in
terms
16:35:46 of increase impact. at the end of its report. it includes the dumb track
estimator, compressor, and shows a a level of 63 Dba copy line.
16:36:01 So a couple of things with that is as stated here it's not clear where on
the property line.
16:36:07 Yeah, the some of those were were predicted okay it's it.
16:36:14 It does make the difference in terms of where folks might be.
16:36:18 This is not compliance determination here they're looking for you know, to
evaluate impact or increase over existing
16:36:25 So at the property line, it does matter where they are relative to where
folks might be residing.
16:36:31 And but further to that, as I stated, construction is exempt from from the
Jefferson County code.
16:36:38 For a short term. Yeah. It also is looking at you know, pretty high levels
for construction at the property line, and just speaking to those construction as a
variable or generates variable noise.
16:36:54 Emissions that will fluctuate over time over the course of the day over a
very spaces of a construction project.
16:37:02 Lastly, i'll just say on this that as I stated in the first bullet up
there under overall is that we don't know exactly where these sources were modeled
within a place within the model itself the
16:37:14 memo does not include any for narrative to indicate where where these
sorts of things of construction noise were located, so it's not possible for me to
verify whether or not I think they're reasonable in
16:37:27 terms of our location within the site. Okay, thank you.
16:37:35 With regard to the generator. Did you identify any concerns with the green
bush? report?
16:37:40 Sure. Yeah, a couple of things. is that the the Memo States of the
generator was modeled with the south side of the street building.
16:37:49 Of course that would be nearest the the residents of the southern side of
the property.
16:37:57 You know. Come on a wizard has the opportunity during the development to
locate the generator and emergency generator wherever they you know. think it needs
to be and select a generator that's perfect for this use.
16:38:09 And so you know, locating it at the south side versus locating at the
north side would have a much different effect and sound in my understanding from
what I would say it can be located, and it doesn't need to be at the South side of
the
16:38:23 property. And further, that the routine testing of a generator, as well as
this use, as well as when use during emergency, is is exempt from the Jefferson
County code as well, and both those exemptions are stated in
16:38:40 the Green Bush report. typically it gets tested once per month for about
30 min.
16:38:47 That's a very short term amount of use over you know, entire month.
16:38:52 So you know, 2930 days of a month. It will not be operated.
16:38:55 But one day of the month, during daytime hours, a link for third events.
16:38:58 It will be operated, of course, during emergencies. but you know I should
shoot the power.
16:39:04 Go out. Okay, And And any concern with the statement about about
adjusting.
16:39:16 So. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, Thank you. I missed that part. that that yeah,
there is no explanation provided the the green Bush Report says that these sellers
were adjusted to comply with Thetime limits.
16:39:30 But does not provide an explanation of what adjusted means.
16:39:32 If there adjusted up or down from reference level i'm not sure
16:39:44 And on this page talk about the reference level. 70 Db.
16:39:48 At 50 feet. So based on data that the English might have in their library,
I'm not sure.
16:39:58 But we looked at the roadway, construction, noise, model Rcm. version,
2.0.
16:40:03 This is a Federal highway administration model. that is used all over the
place for looking at like levels for construction equipment.
16:40:11 In this particular case. we don't know which will be will be selected for
this site, so this is a good reference point for a average sound level.
16:40:22 Taking the measurements of lots and lots of different generators.
16:40:25 And the reference level provided in that model is 67 Dva.
16:40:29 As 5 feet. so it's a few disciples quieter than the 70 and 50 feet excuse
me 650 feet, which she does was quieter than 70 at 50
16:40:43 Thank you. with regard to mechanical equipment included in the green bush
assessment of noise, and he conserved that yeah, a couple of concerns.
16:40:57 So one was the sound level identified there I I Listen to some discussion
of the various types of equipment that could be selected, and I agree there's a
variability in style levels for various equipment.
16:41:10 However, as with the generator familiar with has the opportunity just to
select equipment that's suitable for tech facility.
16:41:20 They're trying to create. they're trying to create a facility.
16:41:22 But, you know, have them. it's a nice quiet and treat proposed to kind of
reengage with nature.
16:41:27 I highly doubt they're gonna wanna h back here that is you know they're
they're runs contradictory to what the intended use.
16:41:35 Is. so they're gonna want something quiet. and a looking at a more
reasonable sound level.
16:41:41 We. We looked at a 73 Dv. at 3 feet
16:41:46 Which is much quieter than with model bank English but is based on data
that we've seen for measurements that we have with similar type units would be a
suited for a building of the size Mr.
16:42:00 Warner this we're talking just because you're testifying right now.
16:42:04 I'm gonna throw it out you Don't have to answer it.
16:42:06 Now. you can get to it later if you want. but if you are, you familiar
with the lead certification process? L.
16:42:12 Eed i'm not familiar with the details of the process but I am familiar
with it.
16:42:16 Yes, sir, are mechanical pieces of mechanical equipment and issues related
to noise. are they considered?
16:42:25 Do you know if you don't know ms Kaylor, you can let somebody else answer
that later.
16:42:30 Mr. Order. Do you know I don't know off the top my head, sir.
16:42:35 Move on. Go ahead, Ms: Kaylor. Okay.
16:42:43 Sorry. Yeah. So i'll continue that if that's Okay, scalar, that the
talking about the placement of mechanical equipment on the roof.
16:42:53 This was another yeah of mine. The The study does not indicate again where
any of the noise sources replaced in the model.
16:43:00 So it's not clear if the mechanical equipment was placed on the south end
of the building, where the north end and the roof on the ground, assuming if it if
placed on the roof, far south, then similar to
16:43:10 the generator being able to stop, and of course, that we generate levels,
you know, at the highest.
16:43:15 It could be so property line if you know it was located to the north end
center or the north of the roof.
16:43:22 The building itself would provide live site. Shielding, I understand, is
gonna be pair pit on the roof.
16:43:28 Additional shielding so details like that during the development with
certainly how to quiet any always received offside, or the property by the H back
in itself.
16:43:45 Thank you. and finally, any concerns relating to how the garbage truck
noise was modeled. Yes,
16:43:58 So some concerns there. again it the the predicted level
16:44:06 It was not clear where on the property line that the 53 Dba pretty of it
was was would occur based on that green bush modeling.
16:44:14 But regardless This is a similar to the generator testing once per month.
16:44:21 Garbage collection would occur once per week per very short amount of
time.
16:44:24 And when you're looking at a long term change in the overall sound
environment intermittent such as the weekly garbage collection for 15 min, or so
really shouldn't shouldn't be considered but you
16:44:39 know we while we get into it later, but we did look at it, regardless for
our study as well.
16:44:44 Lastly, I i'm not sure if it's been decided yet. But,
16:44:47 My extension is possibility that the garbage picked up main not occur on
site, that I might might be down by the road.
16:44:53 So to be to charming. Okay? and So now, turning from the concerns or
questions that you had with the green Bush analysis, i'd like to move to the
analysis that you performed and ask you to review how you
16:45:20 assess potential noise impacts. Yeah, we'll just start with your overview
here.
16:45:29 In page 6 of our exhibit and Then ask you to to walk through the different
elements of that sure.
16:45:37 So first off just starting with the bottom paragraph, or that first
section there.
16:45:44 We did not look at computers with the applicable county code which is
which are the whack from Chapter 1, 73, 60 already clients with those code limits.
16:46:00 So we We were looking strictly at increase overhanding in the vicinity of
I'll.
16:46:08 I would say development. And so to do that we looked existing sound levels
that were measured by Greenbush as they stated earlier.
16:46:19 And we used our own noise model. we We did not recreate the Green Bush
model, but made our own noise model.
16:46:29 Using the same program, we we operate the same model that green bush uses
the Cabinet.
16:46:34 A you might be able to make sure model based on the same Iso standard.
16:46:38 The 96, 13 dash, 2 propagation algorithms.
16:46:41 And using that, we predicted sound levels at the property line.
16:46:46 Location. similar location that I believe this model for the green bush.
16:46:52 Report to look at the ambient sound levels again, because I was pasting
this on a 24 h increase.
16:47:00 I took the L. 25 measurement data that summarized in the tables at the end
of the green bush report.
16:47:06 It computed the 24 h Ldn including a 10 guessable penalty, applied to
sounds measured between 10 Pm.
16:47:17 And 7 Am. consistent with the calculation for an Ldm procedure into
calculating Ldm.
16:47:23 And then we went ahead and modeled. we have the various sources that we
might have on site including
16:47:32 The mechanically behavior traffic and on the next basis as outdoor use,
which are, you know, 35 people.
16:47:44 National capacity at the facility split between 2 locations on the east
and west side of the building.
16:47:51 Everybody talking 60 gospels at 3 feet, which is the level reference in
the green bush.
16:47:56 Report talking solid between 7 am 10 pm obviously that's highly
conservative.
16:48:02 You're not gonna have people talking for that many hours straight outside.
But that's what's what we used as a conservative measure to look to look at what
the end?
16:48:15 Love was might be a problem. so, And then.
16:48:21 So, using all this, we looked at a few different scenarios.
16:48:24 Being, you know, when a garb short like on site, what else might be
happening when the generator might turn on what else might be happening.
16:48:30 So this summary here kind of outlines that So, for example, for for 1 h we
had the garbage track traffic voices and the group top equipment rot running for 5
of those hours.
16:48:46 Probably we don't have a garbage truck but we have outdoor voicemail
mechanical equipment.
16:48:53 Are we? The generator might kick on with voices that we have just voices
and mechanical equipment for 8 h of that day.
16:49:02 For night time, we assume, which is between 10 Pm.
16:49:05 And 70, and we are understanding is it there's gonna be a policy that
people cannot be outside past or at least 90, you know, not talking loudly.
16:49:15 I'm not sure but they be quiet and we'll just have h back units running
whatever mechanical equipment on the roof whatever that needs to be so that's what
we look at for the hours.
16:49:28 10 Pm. to 7. Am Alright, Now i'll just go back and pick up talking about.
16:49:34 We've had some discussion of mechanical equipment and I I heard let me
know bush witness refer to the equipment that you had selected as as as quiet
equipment.
16:49:53 He seemed to think it was unusually quiet. Can you comment on that?
16:49:56 Yeah, I disagree that It's unusually quiet 67 Gospels.
16:50:02 Is not necessarily quiet. for a generator. I think.
16:50:10 The using that as a reference level consistent with the Rcm.
16:50:15 Values is is absolutely appropriate for for the set assessment similar to
the H back unit by using 73 decibels at 3 feet is appropriate, and we've seen
measurements taking measurements on various industrial facilities for H back
16:50:26 for office spaces, and the like for fairly audible or not even measurable.
16:50:34 Over low low levels of background sound. so 73 at 3 feet is not
unreasonable.
16:50:40 So yeah, that would be my my comment on that on the traffic.
16:50:44 We just bones here while we're looking at it 48. The trips divided over
3 h once during the morning, and once during the evening list was included in the
model in those very scenarios in 90 alright and
16:50:59 again. you indicate that's a conservative assumption correct more than
more than anticipate for the traffic.
16:51:06 Yes, absolutely. Yes. Okay. I believe you already indicated.
16:51:14 You already summarized outdoor use so I won't ask you to to do that again
for ambient noise levels.
16:51:20 What ambient noise levels did you use so to? quantify ambient?
16:51:26 We? We looked at the levels that were directly reported in the green bush.
16:51:30 Report again. Landown did take their own measurements, but we often use
these State answers for
16:51:36 A more direct comparison of our model result with what was presented by
the appellant.
16:51:42 And so using the data that so it's listed here yeah.
16:51:48 Between April fifteenth, 16 and then again, April, nineteenth, or
twentieth.
16:51:53 I think Mr. Jenkins had alluded.
16:51:55 There was some technical. so they had split it up and that's that's why
that happens all the time.
16:52:00 So we look at the data that they had. That was that was useful for their
and and monitoring and it.
16:52:10 And we basically made the assumption that the l 25 level. is roughly
equivalent to the hourly queue equivalent sound level over the hour.
16:52:20 So rather than a percentile. it's essentially sound energy average over an
hour.
16:52:26 Off in the l 25 is within a couple of decipes of that Leq. So it's it's
it's not a 100% accurate.
16:52:32 But we don't have access to that information that was measured So it was
an appropriate estimation domain, and we use that to compute the 24 h ldn sound
level again.
16:52:43 With those 10 guest penalties apply to all data that was measured between
10 Pm.
16:52:49 And 7 am. and so we come up with this man. be an Ldm.
16:52:56 Essentially the existing environment over a 24 h period, with the penalty
added to account for sleep interference. Right?
16:53:02 So you I essentially use the data to to generate 24 h average values, and
also your your taking into account evening hours by adding a penalty the evening
hours.
16:53:17 We're not included the the 7 to 10 pm is is what's the best there's a 5
desktop county that's applied from calculating the cn el which was reference in
that
16:53:30 epa document. This was looking at an ldn so it's similar to a cnn.
16:53:36 But it's it's not the same the Ldm.
16:53:39 Thank you, and using that methodology here at the bottom of page 7, and
then let me know, and I should move on to the top of page 8.
16:53:50 Can you tell me the results of your modeling exercise absolutely so What
you're seeing?
16:54:00 Here are the sound levels over that way output by the model.
16:54:02 So assuming just continued use or continued emission of these equipment at
the property line, the separate location in our model.
16:54:10 So for the age back, be located at the center of the roof, not the far
north end, but the center.
16:54:15 You predict levels 30 disciples at the property line for traffic, 16 cars
and any 1 h again.
16:54:21 That was 48 cars right over 3 h so 16 cars with 1 h very, very low levels,
the driveways not very close to that to the problem line.
16:54:29 I'm traveling in the parking lot. so 14 decibels there. a generator we
located on the north side of the building, which again, when it was, has the you
know, opportunity and development of the site to locate that where it needs to
16:54:43 go where it makes most sense and so we placed it there.
16:54:47 To reduce the potential impact of the south side, and we have levels of 21
decibels.
16:54:52 Again. This is the only source that we that we adjusted the operation
parameters, because it would only operate for 30 min full hour, so that's what
that's our level represents the garbage.
16:55:06 Truck one truck 15 miles an hour coming in
16:55:11 And we had a level of 27 Db.
16:55:12 And then again, the outdoor use. I talk with that earlier people outside
talking, and we at any 1 h, about 24 Db.
16:55:21 At the property line, and Mr. order it pause, our second Miss Kaylor. If
this isn't the right witness to answer it, he made an assumption on the generator
location, and I believe we previously heard that the design does
16:55:34 not yet tell us exactly where the generator might be.
16:55:39 So is the applicant going to suggest that it be designated in a certain
part of the property, and not in another.
16:55:46 If that's not already confirmed on the revised site Plan yes.
16:55:53 So let me just ask a question to clarify Mr.
16:55:57 War. I I heard you testify earlier that you're making some reasonable
assumptions based on the level of project design.
16:56:07 At this point in time. Is that right? and based on based on your
understanding of the project characteristics, including the location of the
caretaker residents on the south side of the property?
16:56:28 Did you believe it was reasonable to place the generator as part of this
model on the north side of the property?
16:56:32 Yes, I do and I believe you testified earlier that you had communication
with the applicant that it's possible.
16:56:41 But place the generator there. So right yes, that's correct
16:56:47 Thank you. So yeah, sorry Go ahead i'm Mr.
16:56:53 Examiner. Does that answer your question? there? There is not a specific
condition of approval that relates to the generator and
16:57:04 So. My assumption, then, would be in the appellate can make the argument
that if the generator would be, were to be located right on the property line right
here at the closest house, obviously the noise estimates would be higher on that
16:57:17 impacted property. But if the assumptions made in this report are
implemented in the final design, the generator noises, the noise levels would be
different and lower.
16:57:30 That fair? That is fair. Yes. okay. So then, Mr.
16:57:40 Warner, can you? go on to explain your assessment and it's results.
16:57:49 So As I stated, we calculated the 24 h Lbn: based on the green bush
measurement data.
16:57:57 We have 2 measurement periods here that we looked at, and so, using their
data, we come up with bubbles of 40 decibels and 41 gospels. again Those include a
10 decimal penalty added to
16:58:07 the nighttime hours. between 10 Pm. 7 am. And then what we did is we look
at those various scenarios that I showed you earlier, for, say, one garbage truck
with mechanical plus people.
16:58:20 Talking. so on and so forth, for the various hours, and we laid out a 24
day, a 24 h period and and use the predicted sound levels and applied them to each
of those scenarios to cover each of the 24
16:58:34 hours over a day time over full. excuse me over a full 24 h.
16:58:37 And at night, as I stated, just the mechanical equipment would be
operating.
16:58:44 And then we added that to the ambient sound levels that were measured by
16:58:50 The green bush and then calculated a the second third call.
16:58:55 Excuse me on my table there right so it's predicted yeah plus off
operational.
16:59:00 That's essentially the and plus what we're predicting and we come up with
a new ldn.
16:59:05 We we recalculate the Lvm: Excuse me, and we come up with those values of
41 and 42 for the 2 time periods of book.
16:59:12 That The fourth call, where it says, increase is essentially just.
16:59:16 The third column, minus the second column 41 minus 40 or 42 minus 41
there's rounding errors that you're not seeing. and so it looks like i'm not doing
my math correctly
16:59:26 that's that there's there's i'm not showing you the decimal places in
there.
16:59:32 So a one to 2 db increase based on what's what's operation of facility? is
up and going with all those certain assumptions that I that I spoke to earlier, and
then and all the scenarios that we looked
16:59:45 at. and then we looked at that against the Fta impact criteria or a
category with with referred to as a category to land use.
16:59:54 Essentially residential land. use and based on that great impact criteria,
an increase of one or 2 desk phones is not an impact.
17:00:03 It's a very, very negligible increase in fail and and in fact, the the
impact criteria with an ambient level of 40 or 41 decibels is it needs to be at
least 10
17:00:18 decibels of increase for Fda to consider that an impact.
17:00:22 And so again, yeahta impact criteria are based on increases.
17:00:28 Long term increases in the over the existing sound environment, and so
based on that, and we're only seeing about a one or 2 desktop at most.
17:00:37 But in a very worst case, scenario, or, you know, very conservative
assumptions.
17:00:41 Excuse me and yeah, and so we we I don't see any impact.
17:00:49 So Mr. Warner, I know there's a there's a lot of different numbers and
measurement techniques going on here.
17:00:58 But Greenbush has identified a a severe noise impact, not just a change of
one or 2, but a severe noise impact.
17:01:08 You are identifying no impact. i'm gonna ask you the same question.
17:01:16 I I believe that the Appellants Council asked to Mr.
17:01:22 Jenkins. which is to explain the difference. And and before I ask you that
I believe, Mr.
17:01:28 Jenkins response. 2 things, one you chose quieter equipment, and 2.
17:01:34 You're using a different assessment criteria So i'd like you to explain
the difference, and to tell me, are those the only 2 things going on here?
17:01:45 Or is there something else? And I I think we can probably stop sharing
screen.
17:01:50 If you want to see the report again, let me know. Okay.
17:01:54 So yeah, there are a couple of things. the quater.
17:01:59 Yes, we did select quieter equipment. quick, we thought, was more
reasonable for the site.
17:02:02 As I mentioned, they, the developers is planning to build a retreat
center.
17:02:08 We're folks are engaged in you know activities or reconnect with nature.
17:02:13 Yoga things like if you had, you know, very loud equipment.
17:02:17 It was certainly interfered with this intended use.
17:02:19 So I think, selecting quieter equipment Tv value, potential noise and tax
is absolutely appropriate.
17:02:28 The the way the assessment was completed.
17:02:32 Certainly differs the severe, you know, 16 decimals, or or some of those
increases that were shown are based on prediction at the property line of for
example, a single hour. So, assuming that the green bush model works the way
17:02:51 our model works. It came up with the overall sound level with all these
items, or or looking at them individually.
17:02:57 And then comparing it to the Median L. 25 cell levels, you know, measured
during those periods.
17:03:07 You're going to get a very high you know increase possibly at times, you
know, trying to turn an hour and today here and there.
17:03:16 But again, based on some assumptions of where the equipment are operating.
17:03:24 And scary does not account for well we don't put it in ours, but does that
account for fluctuations and sound over the course of the day.
17:03:32 But the one that really struck me certainly is construction again, because
it is exempt.
17:03:36 But it's also the type of activity that fluctuates wildly over the course
of the day. and over the phases of a project.
17:03:42 And so comparing those 2 those looking at a increase over a single hour is
not an appropriate way to assess potential for impact from a long term.
17:03:56 You know, potential long term change in noise environment due to a project
such as development of a retreat such as this.
17:04:03 The more appropriate method to do that is to evaluate.
17:04:06 Look at A A long term change in the sound environment over the course of
24 h. period.
17:04:13 There are folks that are sleeping next door. you know, in their
resonances, and so to evaluate all that looking at a a yeah, that that accounts for
sleep.
17:04:27 Disturbance is is much more appropriate. Okay?
17:04:32 And so just if I can. repeat what I think you said make sure i'm on
understanding and hopefully this is helpful for the examiner as well.
17:04:43 I'm gonna share my screen and I am showing green bushes sound analysis.
17:04:50 That was previously discussed. So our is what we're talking about here.
17:04:55 The difference between median sound level green bush over an hour and the
24 h average, which is your report that the Dba.
17:05:11 That what we're talking about or or can you explain it out a little bit
more to me if that's not what we're talking about?
17:05:19 It is what we're talking about in that the the the assessment of the
assessment of green bush provided is exactly suggested this, or as a table to show
if it's the Median sound level that they they
17:05:34 measured you over the meeting. Cool and then worst case predictions,
using, in my opinion, was not necessarily appropriate for the study.
17:05:44 We don't know where the equipment was placed on the site, during, you
know, for the model and we don't know exactly where in the property line the model
prediction for me.
17:05:53 And so And then looking at just for a you know the Median sound level or
the first day of the night is not sufficient for us to be able to speak to in
long‐term increase impact over the over the course
17:06:06 of a you know a lifetime. you need to account for a more long term.
17:06:13 You know, 24 h exposure, based on on operation of facility itself, not not
just based on equipment that might offer right here in there.
17:06:23 Well again for the generator, for example. as I suggested.
17:06:26 You mentioned earlier back to particular piece of equipment will fire up
to be tested as it's required to keep them operational should they ever be needed
in an emergency.
17:06:38 But they only come on for about 30 min and That's that's all you need to
test it to keep, you know, to keep everything running.
17:06:43 Okay, And so that's a really you know Hello, the low amount of operation
or small amount of operation.
17:06:51 And so to to include that, and address that as you know as a large
increase.
17:06:58 I think it is it's not quite appropriate and so, if i'm understanding it
correct correctly the the median measurements that green bush is using is that
inflating the importance of short term noise such as
17:07:20 generators It's that what it's doing maybe inflating the influence of
short term art, and noise, maybe less they may have museum for it. you.
17:07:32 We need to work. We're Importance, but but the influence of that sound at
the Mr.
17:07:38 Warner, I think you think you know what this Taylor asked that you don't.
17:07:43 You sounds like you're saying something different would you go ahead and
say what you think.
17:07:49 The main differences with respect to the cat the aspect she's talking
about?
17:07:52 She asked. Did they inflate things? and you gave a different answer.
17:07:54 So why don't you explain how you feel your findings are different than the
other experts?
17:08:01 Findings on the issue of Did one of you inflate things or not.
17:08:05 So I do I. I think that the appellants noise study, use levels that were
higher than they need to be higher than our appropriate for this type of facility.
17:08:15 I can't confirm where they were located on the site, so I can't speak to
whether or not
17:08:20 The model was set up in a way I would agree with and I don't think that
it's or I think this is the type of operator tech facility where you would want to
look at a more long term ie 24
17:08:31 hour and sound levels versus short term comparing to short term sound
levels like an hour.
17:08:39 If I ask you your questions for examiner I wanted to hear it in your own
words.
17:08:45 So that's okay, Ms kaylor anything else for this witness.
17:08:49 Yes, one more thing. So Did you hear Mr. Jenkins suggest that limits of 49
during the day and 41 at night?
17:09:04 I think he was probably talking about L. 25, but I know he was talking
with those sound levels.
17:09:10 That those those would be potential limits that could be imposed as
mitigation measures.
17:09:19 Would you agree or disagree that that would be appropriate?
17:09:24 I I would just agree with that. He was basing that on on
17:09:31 The assumption that a ambient plus 10 Db. would would be or should be
applied as as a project specifically on level limit.
17:09:40 80 al 12 sound level that's. illustrated or that's presented in his
report, plus 10 gospels, and that's where those numbers came from.
17:09:49 However. the measurement results. if you're not looking at the meeting,
and you're actually looking at each of the hourly sound levels that were reported
by green input There's quite a few hours that that go above that medium
17:10:03 level and so ambient plus 10 is is a difficult thing to to enforce.
17:10:10 For something like this, especially if Andy levels on. I say a number
times a year are much higher.
17:10:16 The you know measurements in the winter service summer when it's windy
when it's not when it's raining west.
17:10:22 Not so. I think in fourcing a limit of 41 would be or whatever limits were
suggested would be unnecessarily low.
17:10:33 And owners on the developer and I often think it would be very, very
difficult to enforce, because the would be often exceeded by just whatever else
might get in the environment.
17:10:49 And so One more question about the 2 different methodologies.
17:10:55 The Median versus the and 24 h average would you say it's it's accepted
practice to use the 24 h, average as you have done in your report.
17:11:06 Certainly it's accepted to use that for for looking at increases in
ambient noise environments.
17:11:15 Absolutely for for long term projects. The I can be based.
17:11:20 This on the Fda policy is not unreasonable, although it was developed to
look at things like highways and in the like.
17:11:26 Developments that that have a happy potential to increase in a long term.
17:11:34 The ambient environment. certainly appropriate for looking at it.
17:11:37 In Louisville. you know any other guidance documents that exist.
17:11:42 Yeah, Don't even like that. Okay, thank you I have no further questions.
17:11:50 Okay, let's see, is there like when do you have any questions for this
witness.
17:11:58 I I just have one question: Good afternoon, Mr. Warner.
17:12:04 My name is Barbara Earlyman I'm a deputy prosecutor.
17:12:06 I work for Jefferson County and i'm going to direct your attention to the
staff report, and it would be to condition of a approval.
17:12:19 Number 24, i'm wondering if I could get screen sharing privileges again.
17:12:26 I guess I have them. Okay, so let me find it. And for all those who are
following along this is exhibit 53 at page o 7, 7, 6, and
17:12:43 So, Mr. Warner, are you? Have you had an opportunity to read through these
conversations approval?
17:12:51 They go on to the next page, through them if you haven't.
17:12:55 Yeah, i've looked at him, briefly. Yes, Okay, I Guess you know you talked
a little bit about your in your testimony about being able to accomplish, you know
some reasonable mitigation measures that would not you
17:13:12 know that would would help with noise issues. But be somewhat enforceable,
and I I just wanted to look at a couple of these and get your opinion on that.
17:13:26 You know we had this condition in here that amplification shall not be
allowed on site.
17:13:33 Does that seem like a reasonable condition? to to enforce to to make sure
that the noise levels don't go above acceptable levels?
17:13:49 I Yeah, I don't see any issue with that's my understanding that
development was not was not planning to use amplified.
17:13:57 You know voices or music, or or things like that.
17:14:02 Okay, What about the A delivery schedule between 8 and 5 normal business
hours?
17:14:12 Well, our our modeling is not really showing any issues with even things
like garbage trucks coming in, you know.
17:14:16 Once once a day or once a week. Excuse me,
17:14:20 The the the is pretty far back from the Southern property line deliveries,
you know.
17:14:28 Amazon trucks and things like that. Those delivery trucks are getting
quiet.
17:14:33 And I. and now they come in even before later, after 5 weeks affect the
nice environment.
17:14:46 Okay? And then, there's a couple of these that relate to outdoor
activities between 8 and 10 and gathering of guests outside between 8 and 10.
17:14:59 Does that seem like a reasonable condition? that's capable of being
accomplished?
17:15:04 It does, and it's consistent with my General understanding of when and we
completed our study back in May.
17:15:11 Okay.
17:15:17 And How about this condition? F. Construction Noise between 7 am.
17:15:22 And 8 am. Excuse me, she'll be minimized through conducting lower noise
construction activities.
17:15:32 Let me. I mean it seems reasonable I think that that's certainly
17:15:42 A lot of construction sites at 7 am they're they're kind of just getting
fired up and getting figured out, and having taken meetings, safety meetings,
things like that so I imagine that between the 7 and 8 it things might
17:15:55 be quiet.
17:16:00 Okay, and quiet hours between 10 am. to be of an 8 am.
17:16:05 That sort of a standard condition isn't it well the the the quiet hours up
to 8 Am.
17:16:16 Push 1 h later, and in the code has has adopted, for between May time and
time style level. So the applicable sound level limit.
17:16:28 At 7 Am. jumps up by 10 decibels from the nighttime limit.
17:16:33 So this would essentially. you know, push that quantitative lemon.
17:16:42 I would essentially push nighttime hours to 8, 8 Am. okay.
17:16:47 And then, finally, what about the having materials, guest orientation
materials?
17:16:53 Input emphasize the need to respect neighbors do you think that's a
helpful.
17:17:05 Absolutely. Okay. right, Thank you, That's all I have Okay, thank you, Mr.
17:17:11 Lickman. Mr. Cycles, do you have any questions for this witness? I do, Mr.
17:17:16 Examiner, and about how much time would you need Mr.
17:17:20 Silas I'm thinking, 10 or 15 min Mr. Warner?
17:17:24 Are you available for 10 or 15 min today? or not I I am and if you, if you
would allow me just 30 s, i'm gonna close the curtain before I get blinded by the
sun as it starts to get the alright
17:17:35 we're both 1. minute. break and i'm gonna move believe it or not, and out
or umbrella to block the light coming through this window.
17:17:42 So let's do that turn off our audio
17:18:21 Barbara, could you stop sharing? Please.
17:19:06 Okay, at least hoping that it's better to try to conclude a witness of the
data called let's try to move forward.
17:19:13 Mr. Cycles, you indicate in 10 or 15 min.
17:19:16 So let's move forward. So Mr. warner i've got your report up, which is
exhibit 66 on page 2 of that report, you say.
17:19:29 Well, maybe we'll just call it up let's just put it up
17:19:41 So here we're on page 2 of your report i've highlighted this text.
17:19:47 It's it's a paragraph number one on page 2.
17:19:52 You say that there's a epa guideline that recommends assessing potential
for noise impacts based on a 20 four‐hour community noise, equivalent level or cnel
17:20:15 Is there a question? Yeah.
17:20:21 Is it the case that section 3 of the 1,973 epa guidance?
17:20:29 Also calls for 24 h. Cnel
17:20:38 I have to go back and look at Section 3 But the intent of this paragraph
was to to show that it's this: that the increase ranges are based on this 24 h cnn
when you Look back through
17:20:53 the application where it where it was derived from to the best of your
knowledge, knowing that it's not in front of you.
17:21:01 Isn't it true that section 3 of the 1,973 epa guidance.
17:21:06 Does call for hourly metrics not the 24 h Cn.
17:21:12 O now that's not my understanding of it very well
17:21:25 You testified that you went out to the site and conducted your own noise
measurements.
17:21:29 Is that right that's correct How come we don't see the results of those
measurements anywhere in any of your reports.
17:21:36 Well, because we look, We We took our own measurements for the purposes of
the existing environment, and comparing it with the measurements over time with
Greenbush with a green place.
17:21:48 Study great. So what was the result of that comparison?
17:21:51 What were your numbers that you actually measured well I don't have it in
front of me.
17:21:55 So I have to go back and call them up. But my understanding that they
supported the similar to what the green Bush study had. had. Were they similar to
the green Bush study, or did your report?
17:22:05 Did your measuring actually reveal that the ambient noise is even quieter
than what Green Bush did.
17:22:12 Again. I have to go back and look at it. alright.
17:22:49 In your report. table. one you list a calculated ambient Ldn.
17:22:57 Of 40. Dba. Is that correct? Yes, sir. If the project were to result in
17:23:06 Ldn. 55. Would that be an increase of 15 decibels if it resulted in a
24 h?
17:23:13 Lvm Sound level of 55. Yes. suppose you ask one.
17:23:17 Yes, yes, And would that be a severe noise impact, even using the Fta
methodology?
17:23:28 Believe it would be a severe have it.
17:23:36 But yeah, 15 decimal increase over a 24 h.
17:23:37 Metric is is quite a bit even under fta methodology let's talk about fta
methodology isn't it.
17:23:47 The case that the Fta manuals says this manual provides technical guidance
for conducting noise and vibration and analyses for transit projects isn't that the
purpose of the manual well that's
17:23:59 true. yes, it does provide that. provide a lot. of guidance for looking at
No, he's in vibration impact assessments from transit from various such transitions
facilities.
17:24:10 But it also establishes the the the method of assessment over ambient
control.
17:24:17 But what's the schultz curve from the fda Methodology used to assess noise
impacts developed exclusively for transportation noise.
17:24:27 It was developed to look at. Yes, it was developed to look at
17:24:33 The community response to long term exposure, a bunch of increases in
noise.
17:24:37 Yeah. and the bye time looking at things like highways transit facilities
like I mentioned during my testimony and aren't community noise sources like a
resort located in a residential area very different in terms
17:24:52 of the quality of noise that they produce compared to transportation
noises.
17:24:59 They are sure but the intent again is to look at, you know, sources of
noise that they contribute to for lack of a better word of permanent change in the
end.
17:25:13 But if the quality of the noise from this project, you know Hvac Noise,
generators, social gatherings, if the quality of that noise is different than the
quality of noise from transportation projects, why did you use an fta model that is
developed for
17:25:27 transportation, noise. Good! what you're saying w what you're asking me is
just because it's a different character of noise.
17:25:36 Quality of noise, not quantity. and Why was it used?
17:25:40 The The Fta call criteria based on the shells group again also looks at
things like, you know, a brand new highway goes through development where there is
no highway rate.
17:25:49 That would to me be able very different character of noise. it would be a
reasonable application of that criteria But I mean we're not putting a new highway
through Oak Bay.
17:26:00 Road are we we're putting a resort character of sound so what I'm
suggesting is that that's true.
17:26:07 But the Mta crates doesn't specifically you for looking at different
characters of sound.
17:26:14 It's just this impact, which is based on the shells curve.
17:26:16 But let's look at permanent changes or increases in ambient sound.
17:26:20 Okay, and i'm looking again at your report here and again.
17:26:27 We're we're taking a report at face value we are using the Fda model to
talk about these questions.
17:26:32 Because that's what you did in table one of your report you calculated the
ambient Ldn at 40, and the predicted operational Ldn.
17:26:41 At 41 right? Well, that's predicted operational plus ambient that's that's
a humor that says yes, right.
17:26:49 Yes, that's correct for an increase of one decibel right? essentially one
decibel being the impact of this project right?
17:26:59 One decimal change in sound level. Take the existing level of 40.
17:27:05 You add all the stuff from the development, and it plus the existing
level, and you get 41.
17:27:10 So you take that 41 minus the existing, and you get one and
17:27:14 Your predicted operational noise levels that you add on top of the
ambient.
17:27:19 Those were based on your assumptions regarding what mechanical equipment
they would use.
17:27:23 Correct it was based on. Well, I again, we don't know exactly what kind of
equipment they're going to use.
17:27:29 It was based on my assumption of equipment that could be used for facility
like this and locating it.
17:27:37 Location. that would be with use of facility. Your assumption of equipment
that could be used for a facility like this is that that was the basis.
17:27:49 Are you yourself an engineer? No, sir, i'm not
17:28:01 You characterize these assumptions as very conservative?
17:28:04 Do you stand by that testimony do you think it's very likely, then, that
the predicted ambient plus operational noise, will, in fact, be 41 dba based on
what I put into the model.
17:28:21 If the facility operates the way that i've modeled it. Model predictions
are are generally reading
17:28:31 The noise models have a level of accuracy it's not. They're not perfect.
17:28:34 I think they, Mr. Green, are Mr. Jenkins good test to that as well.
17:28:39 But the facility is constructed the way that I develop it in the model.
17:28:45 But those would be the levels. the 41 overall if you were to measure at
the population we're all Lvn and 41 customers, and that's your estimate based on
very conservative assumptions
17:28:58 right. some conservative assumptions about the that i've listed in there.
17:29:05 Well given that these are very conservative assumptions, it ought to be
easy to achieve this correct to achieve what i'm not sure.
17:29:15 To achieve a operational plus ambient noise level of 41 Dba: That ought to
be easy to achieve.
17:29:21 Correct given How conservative you were. Well, I think that the we, I
think, could be achieved.
17:29:30 Yes, well, would you support writing a permit condition that says, ambient
plus operational noise at the property line must be limited to 40.
17:29:45 One Dba Well, the goal is to reduce noise impacts. right?
17:30:02 Well, both of you guys, different experts of what sorts of things could be
done to address it.
17:30:09 Moving things buying wider things and then on other subjects.
17:30:16 We heard other aspect, so i'll allow the question Alright, would you
support a permit condition?
17:30:22 41 Dba. at the property line. I would not support that. Why not?
17:30:26 I thought it was based on your very conservative assumption I didn't
answer the question.
17:30:30 No good argument, as I stated during my testimony.
17:30:36 This is saddles. the ambient conditions that were monitored back in April
for the green study.
17:30:42 We're we're monitored over a couple of days.
17:30:45 Ambient noise fluctuates ambient additional conditions.
17:30:49 Fluctuate wind, rain, times of year, atmosphere, condition.
17:30:53 So all the things you know, vegetation cover things like that.
17:30:58 To to limit it to 41 festivals.
17:31:02 Very difficult to to enforce if the levels went over 41 who's to say
what's causing it to go over 41
17:31:11 And and 41 would have something that was calculated at the end of 24 h
period. So then you have to go back and look at that 24 h.
17:31:19 Figure out, Where is that noise coming from? What was it the neighbor to
the south milling or line?
17:31:24 Was it an airplane that went overhead what's happening during that time.
17:31:27 I think it would be a very, very tall order to to implement a limit of 40.
17:31:32 One of the population. A neighbor mowing the lawn, or an airplane going
overhead, would be enough to throw off your 24 h average.
17:31:43 Sure How How long does the airplane take to fly overhead? Sure, I'm, i'm
giving you examples of items of things, you know.
17:31:52 If you want me to go and pull up the spreadsheet and do some some
calculations for you, I could.
17:31:56 But what i'm suggesting is that there's a lot of ambient activity that
could interfere for your influence and endeavor, and figuring out what's causing a
level to to rise above 41 would be
17:32:07 a very difficult path, alright, so you don't think it makes sense to
impose a decimal limit of 41, even though you think with very conservative
assumptions that that could be achieved. Mr.
17:32:18 Jenkins had suggested imposing a limit of
17:32:26 10 dba, which, under the 1,973 epa guidance that's their threshold for a
severe noise impact.
17:32:31 If you think a one Decibel increase is just too strict. Do you think a 10
decibel increase would be a little bit more reasonable?
17:32:40 Is that something that could be achieved here so you're asking me 51
decibel ldn sound level limit is appropriate.
17:32:49 Yes, again. I think those things would be difficult to enforce.
17:32:56 I think we, the modeling, has demonstrated that they loved it.
17:33:01 Facility itself is going to generate levels, of boys it's The whole point
of facility is to to provide a quiet environment for the guests to have their
retreat for whatever they might be.
17:33:13 And so I don't think that there's in in this case.
17:33:20 There's much value to opposing a salary movement out of property.
17:33:23 Fine of 41 or 51, or whatever it might be.
17:33:28 The use itself is going to be quiet we've looked at.
17:33:33 Yes, conservative Conservative estimates of people talking of traffic, and
of all the other things.
17:33:39 And i've demonstrated that you know the facility will operate the way it
laid out in the report.
17:33:44 And so I think the monitoring. Usually we we hold it, for you know loud
construction sites or things like that, where you know real impacts of people.
17:33:54 From very, very loud activities might occur in this case we're talking
about something very quiet.
17:33:59 It's not going to be very very difficult to to go back and and figure out
where the noise is coming from.
17:34:05 If it's so quiet, why do you oppose setting any numeric limit at all, for
the reasons I just did, because it's too hard to figure out, because it'd be very
difficult to figure out the envy environment
17:34:18 fluctuates. It means to look at the levels of green bush provided on their
and monitoring the levels.
17:34:24 There's quite a range of levels in the day and night time hours there
certainly are. but rebus provided a Median level.
17:34:28 Why can't we use the Median level Because those levels can be exceeded by
the ending case and different times a year?
17:34:36 The ambient voices. Environment is going to change so you you don't think
it's possible even in theory to set a reasonable noise limit for this project.
17:34:47 I don't think it's necessary for this project I think that the whack
limits that we've both green bush and land.
17:34:52 Now have. Greenbush has stated, in that report that the facility will
meet. I support that.
17:34:59 I think they're coming well underneath those limits and so I don't see any
point in in establishing a lower, sound, level limit or imposing things.
17:35:08 Like. What if we approached it from the other side? What if, instead of
setting a a you know concrete, enforceable result that the project had to hit?
17:35:16 What if we approached it from the design side? What if we said
17:35:20 The design must implement all of the very conservative assumptions that
Mr.
17:35:25 Warner used to in his model. What if we made that a condition?
17:35:30 Would that help the noise problem? i'm gonna object to the form of the
question?
17:35:37 I don't believe they have the witnesses testified that there is a noise
problem
17:35:47 Would that help reduce the noise
17:35:51 Mr. sidel's this is gonna be one of your last questions on this topic,
because it was objected to earlier.
17:35:59 You're repeating yourself on other issues and I could say asked and
answered on some of the answers, you've gotten lately.
17:36:03 So. so why don't you rephrase your question and put it on the table to the
witness so they'll try to say what you said No, it is right Mr. Warner would it. be
a reasonable noise mitigation condition to
17:36:22 say that the applicant must use the same equipment and design that you
used when you conducted your noise.
17:36:30 Study. no, Because what I based on were reasonable assumptions for
equipment that could be in for this project, or let's sell levels for equipment
that could be implemented for project early on in the design at
17:36:47 the time of my study. you know they were at the point where finalizing
design requirements for very important.
17:36:53 But if you're assumptions were reasonable what's wrong with making them a
permit condition, the permit condition as was laid out earlier, suggesting that
that facility would you know for things like signs for people to limit their
talking would
17:37:11 be respectful or neighbors. we put in our report that folks would be
talking 35 people from 7 Am.
17:37:19 To 10 Pm. I don't support, that as to I would support the primary to post
permit condition for size posted for again requesting numbers so I don't think it's
appropriate to take
17:37:33 but was in my report, and should all be permit conditions.
17:37:39 No further questions. Thank you. Okay. And Miss Kaylor, he was your
witness.
17:37:43 So do you have any redirect or Mr. Water?
17:37:47 Sure, Mr. Water, I appreciate the end of a long day.
17:37:52 Here. I have just a one or 2 follow‐up questions for you. Mr.
17:37:58 Cytos asked you if an increase from 40 to 55 dba 15 dba increase would be
severe.
17:38:12 And I believe you answered that it would. based on your analysis.
17:38:18 Is that an increase that you expect this project to cause? No, not at all.
17:38:25 Okay.
17:38:34 Think we've sufficiently discussed permit conditions so I have no further
questions for you.
17:38:39 Okay, And Ms. Kaylor, Do you need to have Mr.
17:38:45 Wanna reserve for rebuttal or get rebuttal.
17:38:47 But are you done with this witness? I I I was about to think we got
rebuttal.
17:38:53 I was getting excited. I have no further questions for this witness.
17:38:58 Thank you. 5 30 head going on here for a long day. Okay.
17:39:02 So before I close today's Proceedings who will the next witnesses be
called Ms.
17:39:10 Cber. you're the one commanding the call of witnesses at this point.
17:39:14 So who will you call and we'll start again tomorrow at 9 o'clock?
17:39:18 But who will be what will the order d Taking into consideration all the
previous explanations by the other parties of people we need to try to accommodate
scheduleize?
17:39:30 Oh, I wanted to check in with Mr. Cytles. I believe I heard him say his
Wetland witness is not available until the afternoon.
17:39:40 Tomorrow. Is that right? I i've got the updates here and Diane?
17:39:44 If you can unmute yourself. I hope you're still listening, The updates, as
I understand them, our traffic expert is available in the morning and prefers
morning I don't know if you have another traffic person
17:39:56 you're gonna put on public works has already. gone. but I don't know if
you have your own.
17:40:07 You do? Yes, so I will say our witnesses will address Wetlands we'll
address traffic and we'll address the stormwater question, and 2 my knowledge at at
this moment, unless they tell me otherwise, all of
17:40:13 my witnesses. they don't have schedule constraints tomorrow so absent any
other schedule constraints, I would probably put on Wetlands traffic and and and
then Stormwater but I certainly could
17:40:27 adjust that if other folks have scheduled constraints
17:40:45 So maybe, Courtney, we could start with traffic and after your traffic
expert.
17:40:51 Maybe i'll put on my rebuttal I realize it's out of order, and kind of you
know stepping on your toes.
17:40:55 But then we would be like permanently done with traffic.
17:40:57 That would take us up to 1115, at which point, if you put on your weapons,
Wetlands expert, Diane, would be available to listen to that
17:41:07 And then my noise expert becomes available, starting he's available noon
to one, and then any time starting at 2 well, my hope would be.
17:41:19 We could be mostly done by 2 o'clock you all are moving at a faster clip.
17:41:23 So i'm not looking for ways to extend the hearing and to draw into hours
where we don't need to be so.
17:41:30 I don't want there to be an expectation that we're gonna go through 6
o'clock tomorrow.
17:41:34 I want all of you to know that I see no good cause whatsoever for the
appellant to keep paying people to be here after tomorrow for the app that keep
paying consultants to be available or to keep county staff away from
17:41:47 the jobs they have to do other than this hearing anyway, pass tomorrow at
a reasonable hour.
17:41:54 So I want to let Council know that I will be speeding you up tomorrow.
17:42:00 You all have some focus on issues you've done a very good job of giving
efficient time or efficient testimony for your witnesses.
17:42:06 But I would ask that speed. it up tomorrow because there's now more focus
you.
17:42:11 You've built the groundwork. So now focus on what your key issues are to
everybody's gonna be calling witnesses tomorrow.
17:42:17 So it does sound best tomorrow, Ms. Kaylor. if you start with your
traffic, and perhaps stormwater people and
17:42:26 And then if your webinar and hopefully will be ready to move forward,
maybe with Wetlands after 1130 does there like when you're online, too. where are
you I don't see you how many witnesses does the
17:42:37 county still need to call. we have staff biologists that we will be
calling and
17:42:45 She'll be testifying on wetlands and then we were going to bring Amanda
hunt up just to talk about light and glare.
17:42:56 Okay to everybody. When you call somebody, try and focus your direct to no
more than half an hour you can tell me otherwise.
17:43:04 But I think you can do it. i've seen you do it Well, so do your best on
that front.
17:43:11 Does anybody see any reason why you don't think we can conclude tomorrow?
17:43:17 Ms. Taylor. I don't see you from the applicants.
17:43:22 No reason we could not include conclude tomorrow. and Mr.
17:43:24 Sydles. that will definitely conclude tomorrow, Mr. Sooner.
17:43:28 I just had a reminder from my client there was that one couple who were
flying today. and they're still hoping to provide oral testimony.
17:43:36 I hope that's all right, hmm hmm is this part of the Cuv.
17:43:42 Yes, Ms. Kaylor. any objection? Mr.
17:43:48 Examiner. I thought you had allowed them to submit their comments in
writing, but they're like literally in the air today.
17:43:58 I'd be shocked if they had submitted anything was it the coney you have
that.
17:44:08 Well, then, They're covered, Mr. cytles. and I just think that would be
inappropriate.
17:44:13 We didn't allow it. for other people they do have a written comment in,
you know, confirmed on the record. i'd ask Staff to let us know that. So no, we
don't need to reopen the cup hearing
17:44:23 for public comments that's closed we've got the written comments in It's
been confirmed
17:44:30 So. okay. let's see I don't see any other reason to continue today.
17:44:37 So it is now 5 44 we'll go back on the record Tomorrow, at 9 o'clock, at
least one person has a hand up, done a beaten, not one of my clients.
17:44:46 But but there's a hand and I just wanted to make a comment, Mr.
17:44:52 Examiner, that the this beaton I don't know who you are. I I spoke
earlier. I'm. a resident of Oak Bay Road the published schedule for this hearing
did not
17:45:13 have any agenda attached to it. So people who wanted to give public
testimony were unable to know that it would only be allowed for a few hours this
morning.
17:45:27 So if those people want to submit their pup or a public testimony
tomorrow, I think that's fair to allow them to do that.