HomeMy WebLinkAbout09.27.2022 Public Hearing Auto Transcription09:00:24 So if our coordinating staff want to go ahead and begin to recording
09:00:31 Thank you. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, for the record.
09:00:34 My name is Gary Mclean i'm the hearing xameter for Jefferson County, and
we are here today continuing the Consolidated hearing process in a conditional use,
permit application and an appeal of a sepa
09:00:46 threshold determination for that application. This is the Pomona Woods
project matter of, and yesterday we began the hearing and concluded the conditional
use.
09:00:58 Permit hearing portion of the record, and then we began the appeal,
hearing portion of the overall hearing, and we let's see the appellants concluded
their testimony of their witnesses, and exhibits say and they
09:01:15 have an opportunity to do rebuttal. Today we are in the midst of the
applicants presentation regarding this responding to the sepa appeal, and that will
be followed by testimony from witnesses that might be
09:01:27 called by the county, responding to the sepa appeal, and the last word
will go to the appellants involved in this appeal.
09:01:36 I see Missouri been Miss kaylor and Mr.
09:01:39 Sidel's all on line those are counsel for the 3 parties involved in the
sepa appeal.
09:01:45 I do want to note on the record that yesterday, during the conditional use
permit hearing there were individuals that testified, and then mentioned that there
were some people, or Mr.
09:01:56 Cytles brought it to my attention and there were people that couldn't be
present, and they asked to submit written comments.
09:02:02 Those were received. I have seen that they've been uploaded and added onto
the exhibit list.
09:02:09 So everybody that was given permission to file a written comment
yesterday.
09:02:16 They've done so so that's in the record and If any of the parties feel the
need to provide any kind of response to that.
09:02:22 You can raise it before the close appearing if you want because obviously
you didn't all get to see the written comment until they came in.
09:02:28 But I just want to confirm that they're in the record.
09:02:33 So we are ready today to start with testimony from folks that Miss Kaylor
might call so i'll turn to that.
09:02:40 But before that Mr. Sydles, if you know offhand, can you let me know,
either now or before the hearing closes?
09:02:49 Which of the individuals that testified yesterday during the conditional
use permit hearing, are also clients of yours In this sepa appeal.
09:02:58 Hearing, and maybe it's easier for you to exclude in other words, say A
and C.
09:03:02 Are not my clients. Maybe that's easier .
09:03:06 I'll do that now. But before the end of the hearing i'd appreciate if you
could let me know that alright, Alright, so Ms.
09:03:12 Kaylor, are you ready to proceed this morning? all your people ready to
go?
09:03:16 Yes, I am, and they are alright, and Mr. sidel's Are you ready to go
today?
09:03:24 I am, and Missouri liquid is the county prepared to move forward.
09:03:26 We are your action right? So the order of business starts with Ms.
09:03:32 Taylor right now. So Miss Kaylor, who would you like call as your first
witness first witness?
09:03:38 Is Mike Swenson. Okay, let's see Mr.
09:03:41 Swenson. I see you on the upper right screen you've turned your video on,
and I didn't go through the protocol.
09:03:48 But everybody who is not speaking. Please make sure you have your
microphone on mute.
09:03:53 And so, Mr. Swenson, I see your mic is on, and your last name is it
spelled S. W.
09:03:58 E. N. S. O. N. that's correct alright so Mr.
09:04:01 Swenson, if you would please raise your right hand, do you swear or affirm
the testimony you by gift? today would be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth.
09:04:08 I do? And, Mr. Swenson, were you part Did you hear any of the testimony
yesterday?
09:04:14 During the hearing. I did all right and i'm sorry if i'm, repeating
myself, and you heard it.
09:04:20 But this is the beginning. so everybody else can listen. This is basically
the guidelines are. Miss Kaylor's called you as a witness.
09:04:27 She will ask you questions. We'll respond to those I reserve the right
she's at any time.
09:04:33 And after Miss Taylor asked you questions is there like we'll have a
chance to do that followed by Mr.
09:04:37 Sidel's and then when they're done Miss Cada will have a chance to follow
up with you if she feels neat to do that.
09:04:44 All right understood. If you hear somebody say objection for any reason,
or I interrupt you because we need to take a break or something.
09:04:50 Please stop talking and let me address the objection or whatever is
brought to my attention, and then i'll tell you how we proceed before you keep
talking.
09:04:59 Okay, I understand. and if you need blast water, or break or anything that
goes for any witnesses and mental testimony, raise your hand and let me know. and
i'll try to accommodate because our witnesses are always our guests of
09:05:09 honor, and we want you comfortable and able to provide testimony
truthfully and comfortably throughout the proceedings.
09:05:15 So with that, Mr. Swenson, You are our next witness, Miss Taylor.
09:05:19 You may now start your questions. Thank you. Mr. Swenson, can you please
describe your qualifications.
09:05:27 Sure i'm a professional engineer registered in the state of Washington.
09:05:32 I'm a principal at the transport group where I've been employed for 25
years.
09:05:38 I focus on traffic impact studies master plan supporting master plan
developments.
09:05:49 We're working through super reviews safety analyses. that type of
information for like said 25 years.
09:06:00 Thank you. I am going to share a document. Oh, Can I?
09:06:06 Please have a screen sharing ability
09:06:14 Looks like I do now. so I am sharing a document.
09:06:19 This is county exhibit to. Can you tell me what this is?
09:06:26 Thank you. And what work did you do to prepare for your testimony?
09:06:36 Today I reviewed the Chinese Staff report the appellants documents that
this letter prepared by Mr.
09:06:52 Tomman also visited the site. and April.
09:07:01 May time period. Thank you. And were you here earlier in this hearing?
09:07:07 For the testimony of Mr. Tillman, and then also for the testimony of
Public works.
09:07:13 Director Mr. Rinders, I was and so first did you?
09:07:25 You have told me you heard Mr. Renders testimony.
09:07:28 Did you agree with that testing me I do I do thank you and we're gonna
make efforts not to not to repeat prior testimony for the examiner's instruction.
09:07:45 I wanna first, though, just show you a document, and this, of course, is
your resume.
09:07:55 Can you identify this document that I am showing you now?
09:08:02 Yeah, that is this memorandum we prepared in response to
09:08:11 Mr. Thomas original review comments or appeal comments.
09:08:17 Thank you, and Mr. Examiner let me I did review this exhibit.
09:08:31 I've reviewed the exhibits for the other experts that you may be calling
today before t this morning, so just to let you all know that.
09:08:40 Thank you, and for the record that report is county exhibit 67.
09:08:47 So, Mr. Swenson, i'm not gonna have you walk through that entire report.
09:08:54 The Examiner, of course, can read it in the record.
09:08:56 But I would like to ask you. Did you agree with Mr.
09:08:59 Browners that the driveway location for this project will will not cause
significant safety impacts.
09:09:08 I do, and what factors inform your opinion on that topic yeah there's a
couple Did you wanna pull up the detailed driveway?
09:09:22 Yes, I will do that again easier for again sharing my screen.
09:09:30 And this this document that i'm showing you is a county exhibit 39.
09:09:37 Let me know if I should zoom in I don't know how legible is on everyone
else's screen.
09:09:45 I think that's that's that is fine you're here.
09:09:52 Thank you. Yeah. Sorry. i'm just doing a little zooming on my end.
09:09:59 Okay, So yeah, I think there's a there's a few things that situating the
window.
09:10:08 There's a few things that I think factors that inform our my my opinion on
this.
09:10:18 You can see when we talk about the alignment.
09:10:21 The alignment is is very the offset, if you will.
09:10:27 Is very minor and if you were to i'm sorry to interrupt you the offset.
09:10:35 Between what the offset between the 2 drivers across the street are is
very minor has been noted.
09:10:42 The outbound vehicles on both of those approaches are actually going to be
looking at each other, which from safety perspective.
09:10:54 Just, you know. clear stuff lines to each of the vehicles.
09:11:00 So I don't feel like that offset is going to be a significant safety
issue.
09:11:05 If one of those vehicles was you know had poor line of sight to each
other, that would be a different situation.
09:11:14 We've also talked a bit about just the traffic. volumes anticipated
exiting and entering the same and while information has been presented around the
daily traffic.
09:11:26 When you look at this intersection. and you think about you know the
potential conflicts you.
09:11:37 You need more about that peak, our activity that would occur not not
simply the daily
09:11:43 And when we look at the daily numbers, whether It's the numbers that are
presented in the Cpa checklist, or the numbers that have been presented, you know,
by Mr.
09:11:55 Telman under kind of the, you know. I guess the the compliant occupancy
levels Those numbers are Those Pkr numbers are very low.
09:12:06 And we just don't. expect but those low volumes. We don't expect there to
be to be an issue. given given those those factors, and can you elaborate a little
bit?
09:12:22 What do you mean when you say very low, hourly volumes? Yeah.
09:12:27 So like, I said, the The numbers that i've presented so far are a range of
daily numbers, and those numbers for for context.
09:12:38 Probably equal about maybe 3% of the total trap.
09:12:44 The total daily traffic on Oak bay road so even on a daily basis.
09:12:48 That's a very, very low percent. but there's a certain number of those
daily trips that that could occur in in a peak.
09:12:56 Our if we look at a you know a typical facility.
09:13:01 You know we would maybe see traffic on the order of, you know, peak hour
traffic on the order of 10% of the daily in in this particular case, if all of that
arrival, group, as an example which I believe was 18
09:13:18 via calls as as presented by Mr. Tomin.
09:13:24 Even if all of those arriving vehicles came in.
09:13:26 And an hour we'd only be talking about 18 trips in a 1 h, time period.
09:13:32 So you know you're talking about a very low you know low frequency.
09:13:39 If you will spread out over the hour. that's really when informed, how
many you know left turns or might be, and how many of those potential conflicts
that have been flag as an issue could actually occur so those numbers on
09:13:53 the order of whether it's the low end at 7 you know 7 trips under the 10%
mark, or even the 18 trips.
09:14:02 In either case. over the course of an hour. Those volumes are not not high
enough for significant enough great an issue.
09:14:12 Given. that design is the center section, in my opinion. Thank you.
09:14:16 And just to I I may have missed this, but you referenced 10% and 7 trips.
09:14:23 What? what? Where does the 10% come from? The 10% is just more of a, you
know.
09:14:31 I guess a typical industry number. If you look at what where comes from
love is, if you look at it at a pmpic hour trip rate for a single family home and
you look at the daily trip rate it's about you know
09:14:43 the Pam Peak hour trip rates about 10% of the daily rate.
09:14:48 When you go and look at traffic accounts on roadways. you see a lot of
that same, you know, between 8 to 10% of that, you know, Peak, our activity or
volume occurs in the Pkr.
09:15:02 It's martin industry rule up thumb if you all there's not a hard and fast,
you know.
09:15:10 Document X says this: it's more of just a industry except the number.
09:15:14 Okay, thank you. And so then, talking a little bit more about industry,
accepted practices.
09:15:23 Is it typical to base your traffic analysis on I guess i'll call it the
the peak of the peak, as as Mr.
09:15:32 Tom did. I think it depends on it. That kind of depends on the nature of
the silly.
09:15:39 I think the the it to generate manual. which is the basis for you know
most of the studies that are done. I mean in this case it's a perramatic estimate,
but I he is is more of a you know it's
09:15:52 an average value. We don't look at the peak of the peak for for
developments and traffic cities because of the frequency that that peak of the peak
is expected to occur
09:16:09 Do you have anything else to sorry? Was that a long waited way of saying
no peak of the peak question?
09:16:15 Was this peak of the peak typical within the industry?
09:16:19 It was your answer. essentially no Correct? Alright, sorry. I was gonna
say yes, but that was gonna get confusing. so correct.
09:16:28 You totally lost me with your wind up. I just wanted to see where the
pitch landed.
09:16:34 Okay, thank you for that clarification. do you have anything else to add
to Mr.
09:16:40 Ranger's testimony. other than I I I I just agree with his assessment that
you know this project, and this design.
09:16:54 In my opinion, does not create a significant adverse impact.
09:16:58 On the on. you know the roadway and facilities adjacent to the site.
09:17:07 Thank you, I have no further questions. Oh, and i'll stop sharing this
document.
09:17:16 Appreciate that I was Garlicman. Do you have any questions for this
witness?
09:17:20 I do not thank you. Mr. Lickman. Mr. Sidel, do you have any questions for
Mr.
09:17:25 Swenson. Yes, I do. Let me call up that executive exhibit 67 real quick
here
09:17:44 I I need a screen sharing powers also. Please
09:17:55 Looks like you're co‐hosting
09:18:02 Right, I should be able to see my screen
09:18:10 And everyone see the diagram That's on my screen Yes, it up a little bit
Alright, Mr.
09:18:21 Swanson. Where would the left turn into the new driveway be in relation to
Terry Ross's driveway?
09:18:35 It would be situate. Well, i'm assuming it would be situated a little
south, maybe, where your cursor is currently at kind of at the edge of her
driveway.
09:18:48 There. Yeah, I mean that'll be in the traveling and I'm, assuming it would
be aligned.
09:18:56 Maybe men, Maybe it's the center line of of the the new driveway right?
09:19:06 And all right. And when you were determining the peak hour trips for this
project
09:19:16 Did you base that on this project's unique traffic characteristics?
09:19:23 Or was that just kind of like, you know a general rule for any project the
information that I I testified, too.
09:19:32 I I presented the range from either kind of the the low end of that 10%
mark.
09:19:38 Or if you look at the 35 resident projection that Mr.
09:19:46 Thomas presented and looked at the 18 to. I believe I had mentioned 18
team as the kind of the high end and 10% as the low end.
09:19:57 But I I mean, are you aware, Mr. Swenson, that this is a retreat center
where people come as a group to this facility?
09:20:05 Yes. Well, if they were coming as a group wouldn't they tend to come I
mean as a group wouldn't they tend to arrive, you know, within an hour of each
other.
09:20:15 Yeah, that was the 18 that I was mentioning right? What is the maximum
capacity of this facility?
09:20:23 35, Why, did you use 18 then cause that's what Mr.
09:20:28 Tonnon presented in the memo didn't Mr.
09:20:32 Tillman also present a scenario of 35 people.
09:20:37 I was looking at the not I was looking at the non turnover day.
09:20:42 That's all right we'll we'll no further questions
09:20:50 Mr. Examiner You're muted I see that Ms Kaylor, do you have any follow
questions for Mr.
09:20:55 Swenson just real briefly here, Mr. Swenson it's I I I wanna look at Mr.
09:21:05 Tom's memo, so that here we go here it is this is i'm showing you Mr.
09:21:13 Tillman's memo and i'm a little need to skip back to identify what county
exhibit it is to the counties list.
09:21:22 It was appalling. Exhibit 3 and I just wanna point out what you were
talking about.
09:21:29 There. Mr. Tillman had 3 scenarios. His first scenario, I believe he
testified yesterday, assumed double occupancy of all 24 rooms, which is contrary to
a permit condition.
09:21:44 His second scenario assumed a maximum of 35 persons, as he's indicated
here, and based on that projected 18 trips for the departure group and 18 trips for
the arrival group is that that
09:22:02 number that you were referencing is that where you got the 18 correct.
09:22:06 It's the arrival group value of 18 thank you and just to make it really
clear.
09:22:14 The illustration there shows that Mr. Swenson, that transportation
professionals.
09:22:22 It looks like you all use an industry standard of some sort that is
developed somehow.
09:22:26 And in this instance of where it says peak season turnover day, they're
applying a 1.9 person per vehicle average to the 35 person threshold. Is that
correct?
09:22:37 Is that how you got the 18? I believe that is how he arrived at that.
09:22:44 Yes, okay. And Mr. Swanson, I just want to clarify
09:22:50 The fact that you use that 18 number doesn't mean you necessarily agree
with the 18 number correct?
09:22:58 No, I mean, I think if you yeah, I was looking more at it from the range
of values that are presented, and to to does that create in an issue?
09:23:11 In my opinion, with the intersection, operations or safety.
09:23:17 And so is it true that even if Mr. tillman's number here was correct.
09:23:21 Your opinion would still hold that There's not a significant impact
correct Okay, thank you very much.
09:23:28 That's all the questions I have thank you ms Kaylor.
09:23:32 Thanks, Mr. Swenson. Appreciate your time today. Awesome, Ms. Taylor.
09:23:38 Who would your next witness be? my next witness? Just a moment, please.
09:23:44 I thought we had a greed yesterday that we would have we would consolidate
traffic, so Mr.
09:23:51 Simon would go right after Mr. Swenson, and then all traffic guys could be
dismissed.
09:23:56 Is that acceptable to the parties no discussion to that i'm sure the
traffic folks would appreciate it.
09:24:02 And is there, like many of the objection no objection alright, so it'll
allow you, Mr. Titles, to call your transportation person of as your rebuttal
perhaps to the appellate and the county
09:24:18 transportation witnesses. Thank you, Mr. Examiner, and thank you, Ms.
09:24:24 Kaylor for being flexible on your schedule.
09:24:26 Mr. Tillman, are you still on? Yes, I am. Hi, Mr.
09:24:30 Tilman, I recognize you from your testimony. Yesterday you remain under
oath.
09:24:36 You know what that means, and I believe you understand the rules.
09:24:39 So. Mr. Silos will get to ask you questions now and then.
09:24:43 The other attorneys will, and Mr. Silas can follow up if he chooses.
09:24:48 Do you have any questions about the process, Mr. Tillman? You understand
it? No, all clear, sir.
09:24:53 Alright, you may proceed, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Examiner.
09:24:57 Good morning, Mr. Tillman. did you hear Mr. swanson's testimony just now.
09:25:02 Yes, I did, all right. What did you think of his use of?
09:25:08 You know 10% of the volume as a peak hour trip.
09:25:14 That is a good rule of thumb for traffic in general, and for many uses
primarily residential.
09:25:24 But in this case the the operation of the project does mean it.
09:25:33 It's traffic behaves differently than traffic in general.
09:25:38 So I think the the notion is, yeah. A high proportion of a arriving guess
would tend to arrive fairly close to one another in time.
09:25:52 Whether that is consistent with the peak hour of the roadway, or another
time, all depends on what sort of schedule has been set for that arriving group,
but I think it's fair to expect that a number of those could
09:26:05 arrive within the same hour. all right, and Mr.
09:26:12 Swenson seems to take issue with your notion that a fully occupied resort
would result in 18 vehicles arriving to occupy the resort.
09:26:22 Do you think he was right or wrong to be skeptical of that number?
09:26:26 Well, I think the number hinges on how many people there will be per
arriving vehicle the the applicants sepa checklist mentions it assumes an average
of 2.5 people per
09:26:43 vehicle. My experiences it's very difficult to achieve that high level of
occupancy outside of major assembly events at sporting facilities arena stadiums
where parking is very expensive there's a lot of
09:27:00 congestion in delay to get there. so there's a real incentive to share
rides.
09:27:06 It also happens that, say, zoom's and amusement parks when the whole
family is traveling together.
09:27:14 But or other events, and even such as reception holes and gatherings like
wedding receptions and the like, achieving 2 and a half people per car across the
board is extremely difficult.
09:27:27 If you assume that even just 10 or 20% drive alone, it's very hard to get
the overall average up to 2 and a half.
09:27:36 I think I explained that in my testimony yesterday
09:27:41 How I arrived at the say 1 point: 9 persons per vehicle as the overall
average.
09:27:47 So when you work out the likely share of people per vehicle, recognizing
that some will drive alone.
09:27:55 That's just how the world works. you get to about 1.9, and thus with 35
guest, you get to 18 arriving vehicles.
09:28:05 Thank you, Mr. Swenson. thank thank you, Mr. Tilman.
09:28:12 So do you stand by your conclusion, then, that it is likely that, 18 of
you vehicles will be arriving on the morning of one of these retreats within an
hour of each other.
09:28:23 I think it's likely they mean it's entirely possible that 18 could arrive
within the same hour.
09:28:30 Yes, it may not necessarily be the case, but I think it is, and entirely
possible.
09:28:36 Thank you. and i'm sure you heard Mr. Swenson talking about where the left
turn would occur for these arriving resort goers.
09:28:51 Did Did you agree or disagree with where he said the left turn would
occur?
09:28:55 Well, I think he indicated broadly, that the vehicle turning left would be
be slowing, And if if not stopping basically by right across from Terry ross's
driveway, what would be the effect of slowing
09:29:12 or stopping right across from terry ross's driveway Well, if a vehicle is
coming out of Ms.
09:29:20 Ross's driveway. They would have to yield and wait for that left turn to
clear.
09:29:26 They wouldn't have clear access to the road Mr.
09:29:30 Swenson testified that there would be no safety impacts from citing the
driveway in this location.
09:29:36 Did you agree or disagree with that testimony?
09:29:37 Well, again, it is I described yesterday. There are now more conflict
points with a new driveway opposite hers than exist today when she just has a T
configuration.
09:29:52 More conflict points means greater potential for conflicts to occur, and
those conflicts could be close calls or actual collisions.
09:30:01 One of the difficulties is If a car is wanting to turn left into Terry
ross's driveway.
09:30:08 Then They've got to negotiate with the card turning left into the Projects
driveway, and again that offset makes it a little awkward.
09:30:16 They can't both go at the same time. they've got to figure out who's going
to go first that communication or negotiation may be smooth and many cases.
09:30:27 But there could be uncertainties. in some and again There is no internal
lane.
09:30:32 They're both having to stop in the roadway are you aware, Mr.
09:30:38 Tillman of any reason why this driveway could not be cited.
09:30:42 Substantially farther to the South to create a t‐shaped intersection.
09:30:48 Well, I haven't heard any information that would speak to that point.
09:30:54 We simply didn't give them this this location did here testimony yesterday
that there is a a culvert very near the proposed location, and that yeah, the
county requires the driveway not be over the call hurt
09:31:09 well fair enough, but it didn't speak to the matter whether there could be
a different location for the driveway much further away, or whether the driveway
and the call for could be relocated.
09:31:21 Thank you, Mr. Tillman. No further questions. Okay. Is there like Ben or
Ms.
09:31:29 Kaylor any follow up questions to Mr. Tillman?
09:31:33 No questions, no questions from the county. so both the applicant, the
county have no questions.
09:31:40 So, Mr. Tilbin. I guess you can move on with your day, unless Mr. sidel's
want you to stay on the a hearing for the rest time.
09:31:48 Thank you for your time. good to see you this morning. Very good, thank
you.
09:31:54 So. now I believe we turn back to Miss Kaylor to call your next witness on
a different subject matter.
09:31:59 Like. Who might that be? you're muted Miss Kaylor?
09:32:12 Okay, there we go. and Ms. Bartonhagen. Did I say that?
09:32:18 Right that's right
09:32:27 That's correct. Wow! a name spelled like it sounds alright. this Martin
Higgins, if you would please raise your right hand, Do you swear?
09:32:37 Or affirm that testimony you're about to give today will be the truth.
09:32:41 The whole truth, and nothing but the truth I do and What You've been
listening to any of the testimony today.
09:32:49 I actually just joined in, so I just listened to the tail end of the
traffic testimony.
09:32:55 But I did like yesterday, Okay, here. my instructions to witnesses that
Miss Kaylor is gonna ask you questions.
09:33:04 And then the other attorneys get asked you questions and she'll get a
chance to follow up with you.
09:33:08 She needs to, and you need to stop talking if you hear the word objection,
or you hear any kind of interruption from me for a point of order or anything.
09:33:16 You understand the guidelines right? right? Okay, listen to the questions
carefully and answer them.
09:33:22 And if you don't understand the question say you don't understand it and
make the lawyers freeze it you're our guest of honor, and they need to ask precise
questions, so you know what you're answering So
09:33:32 you can tell the truth. Alright, Miss Kaylor may proceed.
09:33:37 Thank you. Miss Barnagin, Can you first describe your qualifications?
Yeah.
09:33:42 So I am a civil engineer. i've been practicing for 23 years I am licensed
in Washington, Oregon, and California.
09:33:53 I work for Esm consulting engineers where I am a principal, and I have
been here 19 years.
09:34:01 I got my bachelor of science from Portland State University and
engineering.
09:34:07 So that's it in a Nutshell I serve as expert witness on different
occasions.
09:34:14 And I also, you know, attend these type of hearings for me.
09:34:19 My own projects. Thank you. I am going to share my screen here.
09:34:27 And I am showing you what has been identified as county Exhibit 3.
09:34:31 Can you tell me what this is. Yes, that's my resume and and a lovely
picture.
09:34:38 Thank you. So what work did you do to prepare for your testimony today?
09:34:46 I reviewed the exhibits prepared So I reviewed the original submittal by
the applicant, and then I reviewed the county comments, and then the residential.
09:35:01 So that's overall end of conditions more specifically thank you
09:35:09 Did you hear the concerns or so first i'll ask you were you here for the
first time of testimony yesterday, including the conditional use. permit hearing
and and the initial lay witness sepa testimony.
09:35:26 Yes, yes, I was okay. And did you hear concerns expressed by various
individuals that the project will cause erosion that will damage downhill
properties.
09:35:41 Yes, yes, I did hear those testing on these. Okay? and are there
conditions of approval that will address those concerns?
09:35:50 Yes, there's several that actually even double cover them So they're
addressed, not in one, but multiple conditions.
09:36:01 Okay, thank you. So i'm gonna ask you about some of these conditions, and
I will.
09:36:08 First I'm gonna call up the county staff report so we can look at the
specific language of those conditions.
09:36:21 Let me share my screen. Here.
09:36:30 And i'll pardon. me with my scrolling i'm gonna find the conditions. I am
displaying county exhibit 53, which is the staff report and includes the conditions
of approval.
09:36:46 Can you see that on your screen? Yes, yes, it can.
09:36:50 Okay, So i'm gonna ask you about a number of conditions here.
09:36:56 But first condition number one. I can you tell me how that relates to
these?
09:37:03 What it requires, and how it relates to the erosion concerns right.
09:37:08 So in that first one the fire code part is, you know, a different topping.
09:37:14 But the stormwater site plan that has to be prepared for the project is
required to address, temporary erosion and sediment control.
09:37:27 So. It has to use stormwater business management practices, which are also
required by department of ecology to prevent erosion from leaving the site.
09:37:39 So that first condition states that all that has to be done before they
could even start construction.
09:37:49 Okay, and it's a stormwater plan as contemplated in this condition is that
something that would commonly be prepared in connection with construction level
permit applications.
09:38:06 Yes, so there's different levels which you know the applicant has in their
documents based on acreage and area disturbed.
09:38:13 There's a different levels of permits that are triggered. and a stormwater
plan is pretty typical for this size of development.
09:38:23 Okay, thank you. I am going to skip now, to exhibit 27.
09:38:33 I'm sorry to condition 27 and ask you about that condition.
09:38:45 Here we go, so can you describe what condition 27 requires?
09:38:50 And then how that relates to the erosion concerning we've heard so.
09:39:00 Because the project is proposing so much more, you know, new and pervious
area than the minimum per manual.
09:39:08 It does true. following the stormwater management manual for all its you
know, requirements and guidelines, and that includes preparing a stormwater.
09:39:21 Say plan report, which is also listed in There that has to be prepared by
a professional civil engineer that addresses I believe It's yeah.
09:39:32 It's 9 minimum requirements and one of them is erosion control.
09:39:38 It's also water quality treatment for pollution generating areas.
09:39:43 It's also discharging at their natural location So there's several minimum
requirements that project will have to comply with.
09:39:52 Okay, I'm gonna Oh, and in in this condition. Is there also a a
requirement to follow public works recommendations.
09:40:04 Yes, it is. I believe that abbreviation stands for Jefferson County.
09:40:08 Public works. So it'll have to follow you know both state and local county
requirements.
09:40:14 Okay, I'm gonna stop sharing for a moment while I pull up those public
works recommendations so that we can know where they are in the record.
09:40:46 And share
09:40:46 And share my screen again. i'm now showing you county exhibit 17, and we
are on page 9 of that Pdf: i'm not gonna ask you to go through this entire memo but
just briefly does
09:41:06 public works also require compliance with the 2,019 stormwater management
Manual.
09:41:11 Yes, it does. And I did review this document as well before the hearing.
09:41:17 Yeah, it states right there that it has to follow the most current
version, which is the 2,019
09:41:27 And so I think you stop sharing here you you did briefly discuss this, but
i'll ask you to elaborate a little bit on on the requirements of the 2,019
stormwater manual and specifically
09:41:41 how those requirements address erosion concerns that we've heard right?
09:41:48 So the storm water manual for the State, you know, which has been, you
know, fine tuned over several years.
09:41:56 Requires temporary erosion and sediment control which includes
09:42:04 It's again in line with ecology, right so this state term water manual
works with department of ecology to create a construction stormwater.
09:42:15 General permit, which is required for sites that disturb more than an
acre, and for that there has to be another report prepared called the Stormwater
Pollution, prevention, plan, and in that all the best management practices for
09:42:30 erosion are put in, and then the construction plans have to show those M.
09:42:36 Badra practices in visual form and then there's also calculations that
have to be done using different types of storm events.
09:42:45 So if a site has sensitive areas downstream, such as Wetlands, it would
prepare stronger calculations to prevent.
09:42:53 Up to the 10 year brain event from basically leaving the site with
sediment land runoff.
09:43:02 And then it also there's also requirements about the allowed turbidity
that can leave the site.
09:43:09 So. there has to be. Once the permit is received from ecology, they have
to.
09:43:16 Every discharge has to be reported, and there is required from the
construction side to have a certified erosion and sediment control.
09:43:26 Lead a Cecil, so that person as responsible during construction to make
sure that everything the engineer prescribed for erosion control is addressed.
09:43:37 So there's essentially the preparation portion for erosion control that
the professional civil engineer prepares And then there's the implementation
portion which certified. you know erosion control person takes care of
09:43:56 thank you so generally I i'm understanding. correctly there are both
erosion control measures that are developed and put in place in this plan of the
county is requiring and Then there's some follow‐through.
09:44:11 There's there's folks who are responsible for making sure those that plan
is followed is that generally right?
09:44:18 That's right, and all that is typically done with you know construction
plans when the project takes more detailed shape
09:44:28 So i'm gonna show you again our the staff report and we have talked
already about condition.
09:44:43 One and condition. 27 i'm gonna bring you up to condition 22.
09:44:49 Okay, and ask you generally what this requires and how it relates to the
erosion concerns that were expressed. Yeah.
09:45:02 So this is An additional requirement that, Jefferson County has put on the
project is to require this.
09:45:11 A Geo. technical engineer to you know, provide essentially follow extra
requirements.
09:45:23 So the first one a is to just be consistent with the manual, which is
pretty straightforward.
09:45:29 The second one is how to construct the road to minimize erosion.
09:45:37 And then the third one is, you know, requiring to disperse.
09:45:42 Storm water run off. I love the last one is another.
09:45:46 Joe, Geo. technical issue, and and so that item, c.
09:45:52 Dispersal of storm water runoff. Is that it again?
09:45:58 This reference to the stormwater manual would you understand that to be a
reference to the 2,019 Western Washington Storm Water Manual.
09:46:08 You've already been talking about that's correct because if That's the one
that's been adopted by Jefferson County.
09:46:15 That's the only one that the engineer would follow the design.
09:46:19 The site. Okay, and it's dispersal what one of the methods to deal with
strong water under the manual. Yes, it is.
09:46:27 It's actually the first prefred method depending on you know how much flow
results.
09:46:36 Full. This version is requires a 100 foot flow path.
09:46:39 Because the site is, you know, relatively large, that should be feasible
in most most parts full.
09:46:49 This version does require a letter from a geotechnical engineer.
09:46:52 If you're dispersing over slopes steeper than 15%.
09:46:57 But in having visited the site it's looks like the parts that are not
disturbed are really well vegetated, and you know they should be suitable for full
dispersion.
09:47:09 Thank you, And just so everybody's aware of where things are in the
record.
09:47:15 I'm gonna show you exhibit 9 I know you didn't prepare this document.
09:47:23 But it is it your understanding of this is the geologic hazard assessment
that was referred to in that condition.
09:47:31 12 we just talked about. Yes, yes, okay, Thank you.
09:47:41 Yeah, and I think it's listed there below and condition 13 and capital
letters.
09:47:47 Yes, thank you.
09:47:54 So I don't wanna labor all the other conditions I know you mentioned there
were.
09:47:59 There were several conditions that were somewhat overlapping but like to
just briefly highlight some of those other conditions.
09:48:08 So i'm gonna move us to condition for and briefly, what does condition for
require? It requires that the erosion control measures must be physical in place
before any clearing grading, or construction?
09:48:27 So whatever erosion control measures are proposed, they should be
physically there.
09:48:34 And then it also specifies what consists of pollutants.
09:48:39 So typically, pollutants are oil or gas from cars.
09:48:43 But in this case they were very specific to say that sediment is also
considered a pollutant.
09:48:49 Okay, and new conditions. 5 and 6 also relate to stormwater issues.
09:48:58 Yes, so they discuss. And in the ecology, like I said, it does have a
program to where you report online any discharges as part of the permit, and they
do.
09:49:10 They are subject to enforcement. so far. is you know pretty much right on,
and then 6 is rating that permit that I mentioned the construction storm marginal
permit.
09:49:25 That's what I think they are referring to when they say additional
permits.
09:49:31 They don't clearly say that that's the right permit but it it is the right
one, because that's the one that takes.
09:49:38 That's the one that's required before construction and it takes 60 days to
obtain, and it does require a public notice in the local paper.
09:49:48 Thank you. So in your opinion, if these conditions are followed, and
including compliance with the stormwater manual
09:50:02 And the engineered report that you engineered plan that you mentioned
previously.
09:50:08 If these conditions are followed, do you believe that the project would
then have significant adverse erosion or strong water impacts downstream?
09:50:20 No, I I do not. so. Yes, I think the code covers it clearly.
09:50:25 Well between the county ecology and the State Storm Water Manual. Thank
you.
09:50:31 No further questions.
09:50:38 Alright. is there looking? Do you have any questions for this witness?
09:50:42 I do not thank you, thank you, Mr. sidel's do you have any questions.
09:50:46 Yes, I do. Good morning Ms. Barton, Hagen.
09:50:54 Do you agree that this person is subject to minimum requirements?
09:50:58 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 from the stormwater manual.
09:51:05 Yes, it is subject to those requirements. It is subject to the checklist
that was prepared
09:51:17 I should also add that the condition states it's subject to conditions one
through 9.
09:51:23 So I think if if you're thinking that it's only subject to the conditions
listed in the document.
09:51:30 I think it's subject to all the the requirements that are listed in the
condition well, yes, I agree with that.
09:51:37 But it's not, for example, subjects to stormwater manual minimum
requirement.
09:51:43 7, for example. Well, again, the condition says it's subject to one
through 9 minimum requirements, one through 9.
09:51:52 Correct, so that's in the staff report alright so did minimum requirement
7.
09:52:05 My understanding is that that requires stormwater conditions after
development to mirror, the stormwater conditions prior to development.
09:52:16 Is that correct? Yes, I think what it talks about is pre‐developed,
runoff.
09:52:23 The So site can't have more run off leaving than pre development. That's
that's the requirement of minimum requirement.
09:52:33 7. you know what i'd have to look it up which I can, just to be sure that
that's 7 because again there there's 9.
09:52:43 Right. so There's according to condition one of these that that we just
looked at
09:52:57 Yeah, it's condition number 27 it has to comply with minimum requirements.
09:53:04 One through 9, so that includes 7, and I will look up the minimum
requirement.
09:53:18 Number 7 is flow control, and it's required to as essentially not have
more water leaving the property than it does now.
09:53:30 Whatever the runoff was before development should be the same as the
runoff after development.
09:53:36 Correct. alright. Did you conduct any modeling of the storm?
09:53:43 Water running off the property prior to development. I did not.
09:53:50 I was just brought on to review the documents prepared by the applicant
and Jefferson County.
09:53:59 Did you conduct any modeling of the stormwater runoff that will leave the
property after it is developed?
09:54:05 No, I I did not conduct any model, but how can you assess compliance with
minimum required Number 7.
09:54:15 If there's no modeling, because it is not required at a preliminary level.
09:54:24 If if the project is conditioned to comply with that requirement the
engineer that will do the modeling, we'll have to prove that to Jefferson County.
09:54:32 But you already have a stormwater plan for the project.
09:54:36 Correct. it is The stormwater plan for the project I would say, is
preliminary in nature, and doesn't have that level of detail.
09:54:48 It was adequate for again this preliminary level of application.
09:54:56 Was it because the revised stormwater plan only mentions minimum
requirements one through 5?
09:55:02 It does not mention minimum requirement. 6, 7, 8, or 9 does it
09:55:11 Again that's Why, I think it's a condition right so it's.
09:55:15 It was, Jefferson County, considered the submitted stormwater Site plan as
part of the application.
09:55:22 It was preliminary, and then whatever in addition would have to be done.
09:55:31 They conditioned it. so, for example, I don't think the storm water
sipeline mentions the the department of ecology per minute, either, but so it was
confused by the county.
09:55:41 But if it's a a proposed condition of the county to meet minimum
requirements, one through 9, and there's only a plan, a stormwater plan to meet
requirements one through 5.
09:55:52 How does that strike you in any way as an adequate stormwater plan?
09:55:59 Well, again. the site proposes dispersion and it's a large site that could
allow for flow control.
09:56:07 That is one of the options is to disperse.
09:56:11 You know, to do full dispersion. So so, since it is a large site, it has
that ability.
09:56:19 Now, again, it has to be done, demonstrated by a civil engineer, but that
is typically done with construction plants.
09:56:25 You say that the stormwater plan exhibit 47 talks about dispersion?
09:56:30 You say dispersion is already in the plan correct it's already.
09:56:37 It's. Well, yeah, if you mean so 47 i'm just gonna look at it.
09:56:41 So yeah, cause I 46 and 47 are both storm related.
09:56:47 So 46 is what I was thinking of.
09:56:50 The show a full dispersion, you know. path 46 shows a full dispersion
path, and i'm looking at 47.
09:57:04 It talks about full dispersion on Pdf.
09:57:06 Page 17. Is that what you're talking about I can call it up here?
09:57:10 One moment. Yeah, if you could pull it up yeah yeah that way, we're, we're
literally on the same page.
09:57:18 Okay, So I am in. exhibit 47.
09:57:24 We're here on the the
09:57:31 So on the on the bottom It says page 4 of 6 i'm looking on the right here.
09:57:37 I see full dispersion under category of roofs.
09:57:40 I see sheet flow dispersion under other heart services is that what you're
talking about when you say the plan has dispersion.
09:57:48 Yes, again I was more talking about the picture itself. that visually
shows that there is a 100 feet of native vegetated area that it could dispers.
09:58:00 It so So that's when when I was saying, that's what i'm referring to the I
was referring more to exhibit 46.
09:58:08 But this shows it in writing but the dispersion that's under discussion in
writing here in exhibit 47 also of that is dispersion for the purposes of
satisfying minimum requirement number 5 right correct but again.
09:58:26 it's it's one of the flow control options as well, so it could satisfy
both, and for
09:58:45 So I guess my question is if there's a dispersion plan to satisfy minimum
requirement 5 and it doesn't discuss minimum requirement 7. and there's been no
modeling of storm water before and after from minimum requirement
09:59:02 number 7. How can you be so sure that minimum requirement 7 will be
satisfied?
09:59:09 Well, because it's required by code right jefferson county will not
approve construction plans unless it meets all the minimum requirements in the
condition.
09:59:19 So again it It has to be engineered. I I understand that. but it can be
done with construction plans in detail.
09:59:28 But why wasn't it done in detail now at the conditional use?
09:59:33 Permit stage. The other 5 minimum requirements were done in detail at this
stage.
09:59:37 What happened to the other ones I would say it's because Jefferson County
didn't require it, and they considered that it would be.
09:59:45 You know something that they can condition which can be done, you know.
09:59:50 Typically The level of detail that they put into engineering plans, you
know, or into site plans.
10:00:01 It can range from 10 to 30%. So was it a do?
10:00:06 Was it a deliberate choice to create a stormwater plan that only talk that
only addresses the first 5 minimum requirements and ignores the last 4
requirements?
10:00:16 Was that a deliberate choice I wouldn't know I didn't prepare it.
10:00:21 I just reviewed it, and then I reviewed Jefferson Counties comments, and
again, whatever deficiencies it may have had, Jefferson County picked them up and
address them.
10:00:32 Jefferson County. didn't address them by requiring a stormwater plan for
all 9 requirements did it did, in condition 27. So where's the plan for all 9
requirements?
10:00:43 Can we see that in the record, please well it requires that a story I
don't know Jack is argumentative. I don't think it's appropriate to take the tone
with this witness i'll sustain it and
10:00:56 Mr. Sydles i'll also say that you've asked and answered, you've asked this
question multiple times.
10:01:01 She's given her response, you May answer but she's stuck the same
response.
10:01:06 No further questions then. thank you she's your witness Miss Kaylor?
10:01:12 Do you have any? follow up questions from Miss Barton?
10:01:15 I do not thank you This part and hagan I have a question for you of you've
done reviews of preliminary storm, order, plans and stormwater plans for
subdivisions, and preliminary
10:01:30 plats, have you not? Yes, yes. and is it your experience that even for a
1,000 unit subdivision, that a final stormwater plan is submitted at the
preliminary plot process?
10:01:45 Or is it, or is it more common for the final review to occur after
preliminary plots are approved?
10:01:53 It's definitely more common to get the final storm water cyclone after
plumary plant review, because during preliminary plan review There's there's still
a lot of unknowns and other conditions that could impact
10:02:06 stormwater. So final stormwater site plants are typically done with
construction plans.
10:02:12 What you know for sure what you are allowed to build, given the for
preliminary plot and Cpa conditions.
10:02:22 And could somebody, Miss Kaylor, could you pull up?
10:02:24 What Ms. Bartonhagen referred to as exhibit 46.
10:02:30 I believe I saw that this morning. it's a is it the revised stormwater
plan.
10:02:36 Illustration. I certainly can let me just get that up on my screen.
10:02:42 I can pull up both 46 and 47 cause.
10:02:48 I remember seeing Red Line and the number 100 on it and it didn't just
jump off the page and tell me what it meant, and Miss Barton Hagen, you made some
reference to what it meant.
10:02:57 So maybe you can. So I am displaying exhibit 46, which is the the drawing.
10:03:05 That's what I looked at this morning. and I see that red line with a 100
and you made some mention, Miss Barton Hagen, that there's an area.
10:03:17 Oh, it says full dispersion with 100 foot native vegetative flow pass.
10:03:22 Can you tell me what that means yes, that that's So that is one of the
first best management practices for flow control.
10:03:35 So it's called a will control low impact development option. So it's what
we you do a lot of times.
10:03:43 To to have the project be you know low impact development A lot of
projects don't have a 100 foot made up vegetated flow path.
10:03:56 So. so this one does, and essentially, what would happen is, the road
would be shed in that direction, so the road would slope in the direction of that
natural drainage path, and
10:04:08 The water would never be concentrated into a catch basin.
10:04:13 It was just sort of sheet flow shed through the native vegetation, and the
native vegetation would absorb it.
10:04:20 And there would be no impact downstream, so the manual determined that a
100 foot flow path is sufficient to basically not have any impact for their
downstream.
10:04:32 There is a note there that's this concentrated flow dispersion at roads
specific bmps to be identified by civil engineer.
10:04:41 So it can happen that you can't you know set in sheet flow, because you
also have to meet public safety for road design.
10:04:49 It may happen that it, you know, when it gets engineered.
10:04:54 The engineer will have to look for ways to achieve that dispersion in a
more detailed fashion than what's shown here.
10:05:04 But there's also a rain garden 2 rain gardens proposed and
10:05:12 I think they were looking at some other options, but either way,
10:05:17 That dispersion does to me in this visual exhibit it.
10:05:25 It does work because it has way more than a 100 feet for the most part,
and it's a way from the septic drain field, which I also look for.
10:05:38 Okay, Ms. Kaylor, do you have any follow up based on my questions.
10:05:47 You're muted
10:05:57 Questions, thank you, is kaylor your screen pros up just a second, and
that you were muted.
10:06:03 So i'll ask you so I can hear you do you have any?
10:06:10 Follow up questions, Mr. sidel's, do you have any follow up based on my
questions.
10:06:14 No, sir, thank you, alright. And is there a limit
10:06:19 No, sir, Thank you. Okay, Thank you. Ms. Barton.
10:06:23 Higgins appreciate you being here today. All right, Ms.
10:06:28 Kaylor, who would your next witness speak? Our next witness is Jennifer
Marriott.
10:06:39 Waiting on Miss marriott's screen to pop up, and Miss Kaylor, I I think
this is your Wetland witness.
10:06:50 It is an apologies. I think he is your Wetland witness.
10:06:53 No, she will. She will come on at 1150 to secretly.
10:07:00 I was hoping she would come in earlier than that but I don't see her.
10:07:03 I i'm sorry about this but I don't think we can get started on Wetland
till 1115 I don't know what else we could fill in an hour am I missing somebody on
screen here.
10:07:17 No, no, I I just don't think she's here no I was talking to him. Ms.
10:07:21 Kaylor isn't it marriott yes, i'll see it on that thing I do not see her,
either.
10:07:32 Let me check in with her, and well, first Let's finish this discussion
about whether I know that Miss Marriott is available.
10:07:39 I I was anticipating these 2 witnesses might take a little bit longer than
they did, So I think that's probably why she's not here, but I can text her and Get
her online.
10:07:53 However, I hear Mr. Sidel, saying that his stormwater witness who
presumably he wants to have one line is not available until 1115.
10:08:06 Accordingly It's it's wetland I don't have a alright you have somebody
else you could call Now, Miss Kaylor, Would that be or Miss Arlitman Miss Marriott,
is our last
10:08:25 links. Okay, is there livin do you have a witness that you could call as
part of the county's chief of the case. We'll take them out of order if you need
to.
10:08:30 She will be speaking on light and glare. my only other witness is done.
10:08:35 A frost phone who's also a Wetlands witness. I defer to you who Well, and
because of their wetland witness, you may Mr.
10:08:45 Signals is probably gonna ask you to hold off on that person.
10:08:46 So with an objection, can we turn to the counties response case again?
10:08:52 And allow Mr. Litman to call Miss Hunt Mr.
10:08:57 Examiner I just want to be Clear i'm i'm going to tell Miss Marriott when
she should join our meeting.
10:09:05 Should I tell her? 1115 to be sure that all of the stormwater?
10:09:11 Would I'm Sorry all of the wetland witnesses are available.
10:09:14 I'm. okay. with that, Can you make sure that happens Mr.
10:09:17 Silence. Yes, I think that would be best so while you're hearing somebody
else.
10:09:21 You can have somebody communicate and that may mean that I'm gonna try and
get us into a break sometime around 11 o 5 or so, and it will come back on at 1115.
10:09:36 So, Missouri you were going to call Ms.
10:09:38 Hunt. Is that correct? and Miss Hunt, if you turn on your video, I saw
your name on here earlier.
10:09:45 There you are. Good morning. Good morning, Alright, you remained under
oath, and I believe you've been on for all the testimony.
10:09:53 That is correct. alright. So you know the guidelines and Missouri will ask
you questions first, and Ms.
10:09:59 Kaylor and Mr. sidel's and Miss Ellen will have chance to follow up if she
needs to.
10:10:04 Okay, bye. Alright, Mr. Litman, the witness is your Thank you.
10:10:09 Good morning, Amanda again and we're here today, just to talk about how
the application addresses light and glare impacts, and i'm wondering if you could
go through your analysis under the code and under
10:10:27 sepa and how you arrived at your conclusions.
10:10:33 I would be happy to explain. Okay, So i'm gonna pull up my notes here.
10:10:39 So in regards to this topic of appeal we analyze light and glare impacts
to the environment through several resources.
10:10:48 First would be the lighting development standards in the Jefferson County
code.
10:10:53 At the best management practices and exhibit 48.
10:10:58 The revise sepa, environmental checklist, the site plan and best
management practices on Well, yes, best manager practices listed in the Sepa Vml.
10:11:10 Checklist, and then the conditions of approval can I ask you a question
about that.
10:11:15 You're referring to best management practices what are those so best
management practices are any type of practice where an applicant is doing either
actions that are required by the code or additional actions that would
10:11:33 mitigate the impact of their action, and this is you know common in
construction and storm water plans, and I will go over examples And my testimony
today of what the applicant has proposed for light and glare Okay, So you're,
saying
10:11:49 the applicant has proposed best management practices through the checklist
they have listed their best management practices in their checklist.
10:11:59 Yes, great. Thank you. Please continue alright. So I will go over all of
the different aspects that we reviewed so first.
10:12:09 The applicant is proposing outdoor safety lights, and these safety lights
are proposed to mark their pathways on the property, and the applicant has proposed
to lower their lights to 20 feet, or below and will be aimed low to
10:12:25 encourage stargazing by guests. These lights are also proposed to be
shielded and recessed, to direct glare and reflections into the property without
the clear reaching the outside of the boundaries of the
10:12:38 parcel and Miss Hunt if you're reading from something Can you tell me what
exhibit number and Page?
10:12:45 It might be found on. Yes, so this is referenced in here.
10:12:51 Let me go to my list Here.
10:12:56 So this can be found on ex an exhibit. 53.
10:13:00 The staff report. These are conditions listed on page 32 and 33 more
specifically for light and glare best management practices.
10:13:10 That's condition. Number 26 of 43 condition number 26 That is correct.
10:13:17 Thank you that you were saying it. Did it come from the secret checklist?
10:13:22 Yes, the applicant also describes this, and the sepage checklist, which
is, exhibit number 48.
10:13:29 If I could get screen sharing privileges, I could bring that the exhibit
53 on there we go.
10:13:38 Thank you.
10:13:44 By the way, I think that's how they are doing all the screen sharing
powers, granting them and moving it around.
10:13:51 Excellent job yesterday, and I think all of us express our gratitude for
having everything run so smoothly.
10:13:57 Technically here. good job folks. Okay. So for some reason, and there we
go. Amanda is now co‐host.
10:14:12 Alright, can you see that screen with exhibit or with condition, 26 in the
middle?
10:14:19 There get here's not shown on mind yet
10:14:31 Says you've started screen sharing there we go and i'm looking at exhibit.
26 and 27.
10:14:38 Oh, it's exhibit 53 and this is good.
10:14:41 26 which has to do with light and glare. I think it's the what Amanda just
testified to this is just.
10:14:51 We know page o 7, 7 7 of exhibit 53.
10:14:57 Thank you, Miss Arnold. Please go ahead, Amanda. Alright!
10:15:05 So the Sess. The second aspect that we reviewed on the site were the
retreat center windows, and specifically the light emitting from retreat center
windows at night.
10:15:15 So the best management practice that the applicant has proposed to limit
the impact of light emitted from windows or roll shades, and these are expected to
be pulled down at night to control light and glare during my time hours and is
10:15:32 that subd in condition 26. I will look with you one moment, please.
10:15:43 Yes, condition. 26 of d roll shade shall be installed on the retreat
center windows to control light and glare.
10:15:50 Excuse me. Light glare during night time hours great, thank you.
10:15:58 Third. We We also looked at the retreat center exterior for specific
aspects regarding glare.
10:16:06 So the appetite has proposed a charred wood technique, or some kind of
other like wooden material besides the glass windows.
10:16:15 This material is not expected to produce visual or glare impacts, and this
is something that actually brought up with my review team.
10:16:25 Specifically on. When do we ask for additional best manager practices for
exterior? Much. excuse me.
10:16:33 Exterior materials of a building, and a great example that Staff had
brought up was for aluminum cell towers.
10:16:41 For example, aluminum is a highly reflective material, and so the county
will ask applicants to add additional best manager practices, such as to paint the
tower, green, or brown.
10:16:51 To avoid reflection. In this case the material is going to be this wood
material which is not expected to reflect light or glare.
10:17:02 And is there a condition that specifies that or any requirement in the
permit materials in regards to the materials of the building?
10:17:20 So the way that this condition is written is the app. So this is also
condition.
10:17:24 Number 26 that we're looking at the applicant shall implement, best
management practices to lit to season to limit light and glare generated by the
proposed structure.
10:17:34 Per the sepa environmental checklist. The applicant should implement the
following best management practices to limit light and clear.
10:17:42 Okay, So the way that the condition is written is really to follow the
following best manager practices.
10:17:49 The intent is for the applicant, though, to follow all of the best manager
practices per the seed.
10:17:53 But environmental checklist. and this wooden material is mentioned in the
revised Se. But checklist exhibit 48.
10:18:00 Okay, i'll pull that up really quick so we can take a look at that
10:18:11 And what part of the checklist would it be in?
10:18:13 I believe that is Page. Okay, Thank you, Mr. Sick. Minor Okay, so, zip it.
48.
10:18:26 It's going to be page 40 or excuse me 14, of 21, and it's under 10
aesthetics.
10:18:39 Sorry for all the scrolling folks let's see
10:18:52 Go up a little bit more. There you are, right there. Alright.
10:19:02 So okay, there's the chart
10:19:12 Okay, and alright. so this isn't technically written in as a condition.
10:19:20 But the understanding with the applicant is that they will comply with
this requirement, as part of their building materials correct.
10:19:31 And let's say, you know they decided to use something else that defers.
From this we're still not expecting a significant impasse that would be considered
moderate or at first due to the setbacks of the property which I
10:19:42 will touch on a little bit later as well. But the understanding is that
this is the materials they are going to use for the building. Okay, Great.
10:19:50 Thank you. and so are there other things that you considered as a part of
this analysis?
10:20:00 Yes, 2 other aspects which i'm happy to share at this time.
10:20:04 Okay. secondly, will be vehicle like, so any type of vehicle.
10:20:09 So tracks residential cars of the manager or passenger vehicles flash
delivery checks. So they're expected to be on site during the operation of the
retreat.
10:20:24 Center, and basically what the county was looking at was Okay, Well, where
are the vehicles going to be on the property?
10:20:33 And the main parking area is located let's see I have a number here
10:20:42 Approximately 700 feet from the nearest single family residence in the
area, and which that setback area there is at least let's see
10:20:59 One moment, please, at least 350 feet of vegetation space between that
single family residents and the start of the concrete.
10:21:07 So we're expecting that visual light and their impacts would not expect
will not be expected due to the screening
10:21:18 And in which direction is the nearest home that you were referring to.
10:21:23 This is the direct Southern parcel. Jason Parcel and that parcel let's see
that home is approximately just for reference.
10:21:35 I believe I mentioned this before approximately 350 feet to like 400 feet
from the retreat center.
10:21:44 Okay. and then the other residential property is at least 600 feet away
from the proposed retreat center.
10:21:56 Okay, and So you mentioned a the vegetated setback isn't there a sort of a
self‐imposed buffer beyond the minimum requirements surrounding this property.
10:22:12 Yes, yes, we do have a condition in the recommended conditions of approval
to maintain their 50 foot landscaping buffer, as shown on their approved site.
10:22:22 Plan, and this landscaping buffer is conditioned to be installed and
maintained throughout the life life span of the proposal.
10:22:31 And which condition would that be in exhibit? 53?
10:22:34 That will be condition. Number 29 of 43.
10:22:38 Okay, we go. And what is the normal step back? requirement?
10:22:44 Or is there a landscaping buffer normally required for this type of use?
10:22:51 Around the perimeter of the property. Yes, and let me.
10:22:56 Okay, yeah. So between commercial and residential uses, the right, Let me
do a quick calculation.
10:23:04 Actually so. i've mentioned before, that the 50 foot landscaping buffer is
35 feet larger than what is required for landscaping for small scale recreational
and tourist uses.
10:23:17 So really, the minimum requirement for all of these types of uses is
actually 15 feet, which is a lot.
10:23:23 So the applicant decided to extend that to 50 feet to make sure that's
mitigating for all proposed impacts.
10:23:31 And and have you visited the site? yourself. I have.
10:23:37 Yes, multiple times, right? And so have you seen what type of vegetation
exists in these buffer areas?
10:23:46 Yeah. So the site and the professional biologists actually list these
types of trees in the critical areas report.
10:23:54 They say that the typical canopy consists of Douglas first Western red
cedars, big leaf maples, and red alder trees.
10:24:01 So it's kind of this mix of carnivorous slash, deciduous trees, and this
property is heavily vegetated with these tree canopy.
10:24:11 So you know you probably let's see what's what's a good measurement, I
mean if you're looking into the property of 50 feet you wouldn't be able to see
like a parked car or maybe like a
10:24:22 small building within, because it's just so dense so fairly dense
vegetation.
10:24:28 Yes, okay, yes. and specifically, you know, something I also wanted to
touch on is the the critical areas report which is exhibit.
10:24:42 Let me go to it really quick. Oh, I am so sorry!
10:24:46 I thought that was muted. Okay, So on for exhibit let's see.
10:24:53 What do we have it? 49 in the exhibit list on page 32 of 127, and I'll
wait until you go to that page.
10:25:12 Where did I? 22 or 32 excuse me 32 who shot there and hold on?
10:25:26 And it's going to be the habitat types figure this is let's see.
10:25:36 Appendix. Sorry sorry folks
10:25:41 2232, page 33 27.
10:25:48 This must be another appendix. If it's easier I can also quickly screen
share.
10:25:55 If you have it in front of you, that I think that would be better
10:26:02 I'll stop my share
10:26:09 Okay, and I believe Helena is working on my screen sharing ability.
10:26:16 Let me see if you all can see me Page yet. Looks like you cannot yet, so I
will wait for Helena to give me screen sharing ability.
10:26:25 We don't wanna get perfect and i'm Sorry I think I heard another voice.
10:26:32 Did someone say something, and maybe it was the background of your I think
there might have been an echo from Helena's machine i'll go ahead and share my
screen.
10:26:45 Okay, So we are looking at. Exhibit 49 critical areas.
10:26:51 Report, and this is page 32 of 127 figure 4 habitat types.
10:26:58 So on this. So on the screen what you're looking at and it's kind of hard
to see the colors may not be as visual.
10:27:04 We have like this purple color right here, this teal, and then this pink,
and those are the identified majority habitat types on the property.
10:27:14 And, as you can see between the proposed structure, so the retreat center
right here, and the manager's residence, and even the driveway. we have this purple
color, which is this converse slash deciduous, mix So this is
10:27:28 going to be. You know that Western red cedar canopy the Douglas fur big
leaf, maple or red altar, and with this mixture we expense, or excuse me, we expect
that the light and
10:27:42 glare will be screened from adjacent properties so, here's the nearest
single family residence below, and, as you can see, I did some measurements
earlier.
10:27:52 This is approximately 400 feet away from the residents and
10:27:58 Let's see if it's gonna show me on here That's why I mean, I measure okay
kind of please click this, Let's see. are you gonna let me 655 feet away.
10:28:13 Approximately to that perposed parking area. So what this can? this kind
of a risk slash deciduous mix.
10:28:20 We expect that, like throughout the year, this should be consistently
screen from adjacent neighbors.
10:28:25 Do that this dense vegetation stand of mature trees.
10:28:30 And something I thought about, too, is, you know well, different types of
trees lose their leaves as well.
10:28:34 So in the fall and winter, once the deciduous trees loses their leaves,
will there be an impact here?
10:28:41 Well. This is also a mixture of carnivorous trees.
10:28:45 Right so, and those maintain their canopy here round.
10:28:48 So if that mixture works, still expecting that screening throughout the
entire year.
10:28:53 Okay, and Mr. Examiner. just a point of procedure here.
10:28:57 It looks like Amanda has made some measurements on this.
10:29:02 Exhibit. Is this something you would like to be entered into the record as
a an exhibit, because it it is a measurement on top of an existing exhibit.
10:29:16 I take it, would be helpful if you would have that screenshot turned into
a Pdf.
10:29:22 And color, and Miss Hunt, and place her initials on it, and then you could
upload it as a numbered exhibit, and you will assign it the next number to exhibit.
10:29:31 As Ms. Hunt's measurements. Okay, thank you Miss Hunt, Can you do that
after we're done with our discussion here, I can.
10:29:43 Yes, great, thank you. Alright, I think we have covered that topic.
10:29:48 Is there anything else you'd like to discuss on lighting glare?
10:29:56 Yes, there was one more aspect of review that I would like to talk about.
10:29:59 If that's okay with you, okay, and I just want to confirm my screen is no
longer visible.
10:30:04 Correct, perfect. Okay. So the one last aspect that we reviewed was the
are proposing a directional sign to be located approximately 10 feet from Oak Bay
road north of the driveway.
10:30:17 Entrance. This sign was also proposed to have sign light features, and
they have indicated in their sepa checklist that they will shield and direct the
light the illumination from the light features in a manner not to
10:30:33 adversely affect neighboring properties, so they will be held to that
steam.
10:30:37 The same standards as they're building to shield and recess their whites.
10:30:44 Okay. and I know there is a section in that see?
10:30:53 But checklist, and exhibit 48 page 0, 6, 2, 3 which does have a picture of
the sign, I or not the bus sign, but it's a similar sign I guess is that what
you're referring
10:31:13 to yes, page 14, and so page 14 and 15 of 21.
10:31:20 It says, the illumination will be shielded or in directed, so that light,
intensity, slash, brightness, shall not adversely affect surrounding neighbors and
create a hazard or New Zealand to the traveling
10:31:29 public, and we do also have a You already are moving rather fast here.
10:31:36 My notes start working as quickly give me screen sharing abilities again.
10:31:45 Oh, I got it! Thank you.
10:31:51 In Missouri. When are you almost done with this witness
10:31:58 There you go. Can you see my screen? Okay, So this is exhibit 48 Page 0,
6, 2, 3, and bait stamping, or 15 of 21 in the document.
10:32:10 So if you scroll up Miss Erlichman
10:32:16 So the sentence I just read is ending on page 15 at the top of the page,
but it starts at the bottom of page 14, That's where I adjust directly ready from
right there
10:32:34 Okay, and did you? Is there any condition in the in the conditions on the
recommendation that addresses this issue?
10:32:48 Yes, so I am going to scroll down
10:32:54 So we have a condition to. so yes, so condition 31 of 43, all proposed
signs shelled here to the sign Standards and Jccc.
10:33:05 1,800, 3,150, which includes, which includes, like the quality of the
sign, the dimensions, and any other aspects of the sign has to here to Jefferson
County.
10:33:15 Code. So with that encompass the with the representations.
10:33:20 The applicant made in the chapel checklist. Yes.
10:33:25 Okay, So this is for the examiners benefit. Exhibit 53 at Page O 7 7, 7,
and created a hard copy.
10:33:35 So I see that the sign issues are addressed and proposed.
10:33:39 Conditions. 30 Is is it 31 and 32?
10:33:45 31 yes, and 32 right? Oh, and 32.
10:33:54 Yes, excuse me, that was the specific. So okay anything else on that
subject. I do have a I do have a closing comment.
10:33:59 If that's all right, Mr. Lickman, sure go ahead.
10:34:03 Okay, So I would like to say that Jefferson County did not require a
quantitative measure of light in glare, which I think was a part of the appeal
issue.
10:34:12 And this is because the proposed buildings and signs did meet the minimum
standards in
10:34:20 Jc. Let's see Sorry let me go to the direct one and Jccc.
10:34:25 1831, 40 lighting. This is the development section for lighting for all
proposed structures.
10:34:31 So for consistency with all projects, since they met those minimum
requirements we didn't, we did not ask for any further qualitative measures of
lights, because that would be inconsistent with what we've done for other projects
in
10:34:43 the past. Okay, could you repeat the code reference one more time for my
benefit, please?
10:34:50 That's Jefferson County code. 18 3,140 in the section is called Lighting,
and that is the conclusion of my statements.
10:35:02 Thank you very much. and i'm sure there are other Attorneys may have
questions for you.
10:35:08 Alright, thank you, Mr. Litman, thank you Miss Hunt now it'd be an
opportunity for Ms.
10:35:13 Kaylor to ask any questions she might have
10:35:21 Thank you. with just one or 2 questions. I think.
10:35:27 In your discussion of the building materials, you indicated that the
county had an understanding with the applicant about the the wood materials that
would be used on the building.
10:35:40 That understanding is based on the applicants written sub middle to the
county in the application and the seepa checklist indicating those building
materials.
10:35:53 Right. That is correct. Thank you. And I believe you you covered anything
else that I have a question about.
10:36:04 So that is, I have no further questions for you. Thank you. Thank you. Ms.
10:36:06 Kelly, Mr. Sidel. Now it's your turn do you have any questions for this
witness.
10:36:11 Yes, Mr. Examiner, and also i'm planning to put on a rebuttal witness on
this light and glare subject.
10:36:19 This would be Miss Hines, the neighbor to the south, Who whose house?
Yeah.
10:36:27 So before I turned to cross‐examination.
10:36:30 I wonder if it makes sense that we would put Miss Hinds up now.
10:36:36 You know, because we've got this gap until 1115, or you know if Miss
Kaylor was intending to fill that gap with another witness, I I don't know Courtney
What's your what's your plan here for the rest of
10:36:45 the morning. our only witness is our wetlands witness so we're gonna wait
till 11.
10:36:53 50. We don't have any further witnesses Miss Earlyman unless you object.
10:36:57 I think once i'm done cross‐examining this Hunt i'd like to put on Miss
Hinds, and that should take us right to 1115.
10:37:03 So efficient. Well, we're gonna have a break before 1115.
10:37:07 So it and I take your rebuttal won't be very long.
10:37:10 Yeah, I don't have any objection to having Mrs.
10:37:13 Heinz testify after Amanda
10:37:24 Miss Hunt. You testified that the outdoor lighting would be limited to
2520 feet in height, and directed down words and shielded correct.
10:37:34 That is correct. Is it a requirement to have outdoor lighting at all for a
project of this type
10:37:42 Let me quickly look at a performance standard. I believe that there is
something that it needs to confer with our development regulations.
10:37:52 I want to give you the right citation
10:38:06 Let's just take a minute to look up if you don't mind If not, I can always
we can always come back to the question.
10:38:15 But i'm going to try to so You're looking in the performance and use
specific standards?
10:38:46 Is that it? Ms: Ha! What was that site again? 1820, dot?
10:38:48 What? 1823, 50, small scale recreation and tourists uses is the
performance.
10:38:55 Use standard for this type of use. and I won't take up too much time
looking for this whole section, because there is quite a bit of text in here.
10:39:05 Maybe I can. Maybe I can speed us along. But a related question, Is there
a requirement to put in this exterior lighting, or is that optional to the best of
your knowledge, to the best of my knowledge?
10:39:19 I believe the amount of lighting or lighting at all, I believe, is
technically optional, depending on what type of retreat, center or small scale
recreational uses being proposed. right?
10:39:31 I do know that any aspect of that use, such as the landscaping, lighting
site, coverage, and design standards have to meet the requirements.
10:39:41 In chapter 1,830 so in other words if you're going to have lighting you
have to meet 1830.
10:39:45 But my question is a more, you know, foundational one. Do you have to have
this outdoor lighting?
10:39:49 In the first place, or could you just delete it from the project
10:39:57 And if you don't know you Know I don't know is always an acceptable
answer.
10:39:59 Yeah, I wanna I wanna say I don't know just because I don't recall that
specific citation at this time.
10:40:08 Okay, assuming just for the purposes of argument that exterior lighting is
not a requirement of the code wouldn't it minimize the impacts of this project to
just delete that exterior lighting and
10:40:19 not install it. So in regards to public safety it may it may minimize the
light and glare impact of the project, but it may cause a human safety aspect If
roadways and pathways aren't giving some type of lighting at
10:40:39 night. So it it depends on how you wanna look at the project in regards to
impacts.
10:40:46 Well do the adjacent residential users have lighting on their driveways.
that I wouldn't know, because I have not walked either of the adjacent properties
because their private residential properties have you been up
10:40:59 to the site at night
10:41:12 I heard some testimony from you about the building materials of the
project That that special type of wood, Do you?
10:41:21 Do you recall that testimony? I think this was given?
10:41:27 Exhibit 74. This is that Powerpoint that we saw from
10:41:32 Miss Burkhart on day one see here? Yeah, this thing.
10:41:40 Alright, Ms. Hunt, Have you seen this? rendering before?
10:41:45 Yes, I gotta stop it from advancing alright So i'm on page one of exhibit
74 based on this rendering approximately what percentage of this building's facade
is that special type of wood versus what percentage
10:42:02 is glass, so I don't have a percentage for you but I do have the
approximate square footage of the retreat center windows, which is 4,500 square
feet.
10:42:20 That I don't think was included in the sepa checklist. Alright, but just
you know, based on your understanding of the project.
10:42:26 And frankly, this image that we can all look at. Is it mostly wood, or
mostly glass?
10:42:38 Overall I could look at the rendering and make my own assumptions.
10:42:40 Here, Mr. Saddles. why don't you move on to your next question.
10:42:45 Alright, thank you, Miss Hunt, wouldn't it reduce the impact of glare.
10:42:52 Reduce the amount of glass in this design? Yes, Well, then, how did the
county arrive at 4,500 square feet as an appropriate amount of glass as opposed to
a smaller amount of glass, so we didn't take a quantitative measure, of
10:43:10 these impacts it was more best professional judgment of Okay.
10:43:15 If the structure is proposed in its location you know what type, what what
is occupying the space between the structure and the neighboring properties.
10:43:24 That's what we were looking at. and also what's being used on the building
itself to mitigate for those impacts like, for example, those role shades were
proposed. So there was no quantitative analysis on regards to Okay, well
10:43:36 how much glass equals this impact, How much glance is this threshold of
more additional best management practices?
10:43:44 We did not look at that. Did you consider designs involving less glass?
10:43:49 I did not
10:44:01 You've mentioned the role shades as a measure for mitigating the impacts.
10:44:08 Of all this glass? and I believe you directed us all to one of the
conditions in exhibit 53,
10:44:22 And I can remind us of the page. Let me go to the page find it before me.
10:44:30 Yeah. i'll race you I think it's 26 P. Yeah. Yeah. 26 D.
10:44:37 I think that was the examiner won the race there.
10:44:41 So so condition. 26 D. simply says roll shades shall be installed on the
retreat center windows to control light glare during nighttime hours.
10:44:51 The Miss Hunt. I don't see any requirement here to actually use the role
shades. I only see a requirement to install the role shades.
10:45:00 How do you read this requirement? So the word here is installed on the
retreat center.
10:45:07 So would it be consistent with this requirement if the developer were to
install the role shades, and then simply decide at her discretion not to deploy
them as conditioned.
10:45:18 We're requiring them to install I did not use the language of saying that
they have to use them.
10:45:26 But I guess you know it Reading this condition is if you're going to
install something you should be using it.
10:45:34 I don't think that I would need to specifically say that they would need
to.
10:45:37 You know, use in this instance, I think install was the appropriate term.
10:45:44 Well, what will happen if she decides not to use them?
10:45:51 Well, at night, you know if there are no shades to control lighting more
light, would you know
10:45:57 What's the word? I guess like not leak out that's not the proper word, but
you know what i'm trying to say more light will admit that's the word emit into the
forest around the property
10:46:11 And with those role shades be on the inside of the windows, or would they
be exterior of the building that wasn't specified?
10:46:23 I believe the intent was inside it's kind of like having a shade on a
window at home.
10:46:27 I believe that they would be controlled from the inside so if they're on
the inside.
10:46:33 What if anything, will they do to prevent glare during the day?
10:46:36 Reflecting off those large windows, so as for the glare during the day,
10:46:46 We proceeded to, believe of best professional judgment, that the setbacks
surrounding the property, that any glare emitting from the structure would not
reach adjacent properties.
10:46:57 The vegetation would block the glare Yes, all right well, let's talk about
that vegetation.
10:47:05 Were you present for day? one during Miss Hinds testimony?
10:47:10 Regarding visibility through the vegetation. Do you recall that you recall
what she said?
10:47:16 That that she could see through the vegetation as it currently exists.
10:47:21 Yes, I I think we'll we'll put her on momentarily in in replies.
10:47:25 If we can flesh that out a little bit.
10:47:29 But for now I want to ask you the fifty‐foot landscape buffer is that a
requirement to just maintain the vegetation.
10:47:36 That's already there, or is there a requirement to plant new denser
vegetation within that buffer.
10:47:44 So let me read the condition. So this is condition. 29 of 43, the
applicant shall maintain a fifty‐foot, landscaping buffer, as shown on the approved
site, plan revised november 20
10:47:56 second, 2,021 for the lifespan of the proposal.
10:48:00 Pursue it to 1831, 38. The 50 foot landscaping buffers shall remain in
natural condition, shall be monitored to ensure the health of the landscaping
vegetation and shall consist of a primary
10:48:11 mix of evergreen trees, and sures generally interspersed to form a
continuous year‐round screen that grows to at least 8 feet in height, within 2
growing seasons per segment to jcc 1,800 and
10:48:23 31, 30. The buffer may contain septic drainfield and reserve necessary
utilities and approve for of connections.
10:48:30 Staff will inspect the buffers to determine adequacy prior to final
building, permit occupancy.
10:48:36 No disturbance to the 50 foot landscaping buffer shall occur without
review and approve of by Jefferson County Department of Community Development.
10:48:43 So normally. if landscaping if the landscaping already exists, which, as
it does in this property, we're asking them to maintain it for a consistent year
round, screening Now the applicant is welcome to plant things but we're
10:48:58 asking them just to maintain this buffer if this if this area didn't have
this much vegetation.
10:49:05 Then we would have asked them to install it, for, like some sort of
planting plan.
10:49:08 So you believe the existing vegetation is its unaltered state is is
sufficient to block the light and glare from from the Pomona woods project.
10:49:18 That is correct. Okay, and there and just so we're all clear. there's no
requirement for the developer to go in there and plant anything new.
10:49:24 Is there only for the restoration of mitigation plans, but that is
centered to the front of the property and not around the the entirety of the
property lines.
10:49:39 Right. We are getting near the end. The illuminated sign.
10:49:45 How many other illuminated signs are there along this stretch of Oak Bay
road that I do not know the answer of.
10:49:55 Have you driven Oak Pay road at night? not at night, just during the day?
10:50:00 In that case Is it a is it is there some requirement to the code somewhere
for the operator of a resort to have an illuminated sign as opposed to a non
illuminated sign I think answer, She didn't
10:50:26 know. No, no, this is that was about the exterior lighting like with the
pathways in the driveways.
10:50:31 She didn't know now i'm asking all right the sign out on the road.
10:50:36 Does that have to be illuminated and I don't know that's fine to say I
don't know I do not think so. The requirement to to illuminate a sign I do not
believe is in the code Well, then
10:50:51 Why illuminate this? sign. Why not just say you can have a sign, but no
lights on it, I think risk on this one Miss Hunt. we're on break. I do have a
question you mentioned Public safety issues and there are certain types of
commercial uses that
10:51:08 are required to have some sort of signage that tells emergency response.
10:51:12 Folks like it's here and which is very different the first single family
home.
10:51:17 Would you confer with colleagues of your choice i'd like a response to
that issue.
10:51:24 Is something like that required whether it's lighted or not for a facility
of this sort.
10:51:30 It's Okay, you don't know that but you mentioned the safety and I wanna
think there are parts the fire code that might speak to this.
10:51:39 I will check with my council any other. questions. Mr. Sidel's. No, sir,
that was my last one. all right, Mr. Lickman, do you have a follow up or anything?
10:51:51 Yes, I do so I just wanna go back to these.
10:51:59 The 50 foot landscape buffers and to be clear The code, as you stated
earlier, the code only requires a 15 foot landscape buffer that's correct.
10:52:12 So would you characterize this additional 35 feet of landscaping buffer as
a mitigation measure that could to mitigate the impacts of glare and light on the
adjacent property I do I think it's also a
10:52:32 best management practices on the applicant's behalf for choosing a larger
buffer than what is required by the code.
10:52:41 Okay, Thank you.
10:52:50 Mr. Examiner, you're muted very good ms Kaylor, did you have a question
with this witness?
10:52:56 I do have just a couple of follow up questions. Go ahead.
10:53:01 Thank you I have 2 topics i'd like to ask you a couple questions about
Miss Hunt.
10:53:09 The first one relates to exterior lighting for the project, and I
appreciate you'll be consulting the codes to determine whether that is required for
a commercial use.
10:53:23 Required or not required. Might it be desirable, from a human safety
perspective, to have some exterior lighting?
10:53:33 I would say Yes, thank you, and circling back to this discussion about the
50 foot buffer, and whether there's plantings or or no plantings.
10:53:49 Do I understand your testimony that, based on your own site visits?
10:53:56 You believe they're there are trees and already robust natural vegetation
in the 50 foot buffer area.
10:54:10 Yes, okay, and I believe miss hines one of the neighbors testified that
she believes there's an area where they're in fact, aren't trees.
10:54:26 There's a gap it and and looking at condition 29 condition 29 does require
the county to inspect that 50 foot buffer, does it not, to ensure its adequacy?
10:54:40 Yes, if during that inspection the county determined.
10:54:44 Oh, Miss Heines is is correct there's this spot where there's no trees.
with the county at that point require planting of trees to ensure an effective
buffer Yes, to meet the requirements of the landscaping
10:54:57 section they would have to Okay, thank you I don't have any further
questions
10:55:07 There we go. No, I'm, not muted sorry about that based.
10:55:14 Mr. Sidel, did you have any follow up re‐cross based on this Kaylor's
questions?
10:55:18 Yes, Miss Hunt. Miss Kaylor asked you whether you know if there was a gap
and the gap was insufficient.
10:55:25 If you know, and if the county discovered that during an inspection with
the county require additional planting, right? that's what? she asked you.
10:55:33 Okay, but you've already inspected the site several times as you say and
you say it's adequate.
10:55:40 Right, so the inspection of the site, I should clarify, was done near Oak
Bay Road, and about like 20 to 50 feet from the road.
10:55:48 We did not lock the entirety of the site due to the aerial imaging.
10:55:52 We felt like we didn't need to the site. inspections were for the road
approach area and for potential wetland and stream areas.
10:56:01 In August of 2,021, so we did not feel the need based on imagery to walk
the entirety of the site.
10:56:07 So neither you nor anyone else, to your knowledge, has actually inspected
the 50 foot buffer to ensure whether it will be adequate to prevent light and glare
impacts.
10:56:16 Have you not on the rest of the property lines now? No further questions.
10:56:23 Okay, Ms. Arlichman, do you have any follow up questions from Miss Hunt?
10:56:28 I do not thank you, so thank you, ms hunt appreciate you being here
throughout the process.
10:56:34 I I assume, you're going to be here the rest of the time, and I would ask
that you be because when I review my notes at the end of the hearing, I may have
some follow up questions that I forgot to ask so I
10:56:43 appreciate you being here is the author's staff report okay Mr.
10:56:48 Sidel's is now when you want to call your rebuttal witness, I think so,
Mr. Examiner, and it'll only be like you know 5 min, maybe 10 at most.
10:56:56 So that's fine, and thank you for doing that it just makes more sense,
especially for your witness, because it's fresh on her mind.
10:57:04 Kathy Hines Are you around bye? Where is Miss Hinds?
10:57:12 Sorry it's It's me trying to figure out which screen to use to get the
this hinds. Do you have the video on yours today?
10:57:21 Hang on a sec. I will you want to lower your camera, because i'm looking
at your ceiling.
10:57:29 Sure very well maintained ceiling. There you go.
10:57:35 I know my house. Sometimes you get a spider. if I do that.
10:57:37 Yeah, Ms heinz, you're under oath because you spoke yesterday, and so
you've been called as a rebuttal witness today, and I think you've been on
throughout the day. to day.
10:57:47 So you understand the process that Mr. Signals ask you questions.
10:57:51 And then Miss Kaylor and Missouri look can ask you questions, and Mr.
Sidel's could do a follow up.
10:57:55 Okay, yes, alright. so She's your witness you may proceed thank you, Mr.
10:58:02 Examiner and Mr. Examiner, could I have you and Miss Erlichman turn off
your videos?
10:58:07 Hinds had the Internet problem yesterday, hoping to avoid that today.
10:58:13 Here we go, all right. It's just you and me Miss Hines.
10:58:20 So, Miss Hinds you're the neighbor to the South. right correct.
10:58:32 Tell me about your ability to see through the existing vegetation onto the
Pomona Woods property.
10:58:41 Okay directly to the right I mean to the north of my home itself is a
large swale that's pretty steep, So, looking straight from my house to the retreat
center, I wouldn't be able to see it, but from my
10:58:57 yard from my backyard itself. there are some areas where it's open, and
there's down trees and everything along our the border of our property.
10:59:07 So from my backyard there are certain places where I could see straight
through to the building site, and that's during broad daylight.
10:59:17 Right correct. And in those places do you expect that you will see any
glare shining off the windows of this retreat?
10:59:26 Center. Oh, I definitely know I will because right now I could see right
through the there.
10:59:32 So if there's layer i'm definitely gonna see the clear, and at night, do
you expect that you'll see more or less light than you can see during the day?
10:59:43 Oh, there will be a lot more especially ambient light and direct light.
10:59:47 How do you know? Because I can see through there right now, without any
lights or anything else in there?
10:59:53 So it only stands to reason that if there were lights i'd be able to see
the lights and the effect of the lights on my property.
11:00:00 Are you able to see the lights at night on any other property around you?
11:00:05 No.
11:00:15 There are certain areas of our of that property that are join our
property.
11:00:21 They have a lot of down trees that have just ferns and that kind of
vegetation, and piles of dead trees.
11:00:29 Are there a few standing trees interspersed with the down trees?
11:00:33 Yes, are those few standing trees sufficient to block light and glare from
this project?
11:00:51 Have you driven Oak Bay Road at night?
11:00:56 Yes, many times. How many illuminated signs are there in your neighborhood
on Oak Bay Road?
11:01:04 I haven't seen any
11:01:11 No further questions, Thank you. Hold on, Ms Heinz yeah let's see Ms.
Kaylor.
11:01:18 Do you have any questions for this witness? No questions, Miss Litman. Do
you have any questions from Miss Hans?
11:01:25 I do. I have A couple of questions related to the buffer.
11:01:33 Okay, good good morning, Ms. heinz I'm.
11:01:40 A deputy prosecutor, I work for Jefferson County, and I'm.
11:01:44 Representing the department of Community development on this case so i'm,
wondering.
11:01:51 I'm gonna share my screen right now. and i'm wondering if you could take a
look at this photo that's up on the screen.
11:02:03 This is from Exhibit 29, which is the appellants acoustical exhibit, or
report, and this is P. O.
11:02:14 5, 1 3 in the record does this look at all familiar to you Well, it's just
green, so it it looks like trees or something.
11:02:30 The relief isn't very good on the picture and I apologize for that.
11:02:34 But I see this open area here. This cleared area.
11:02:39 Is that something that you recognize an in our yard?
11:02:46 Well, is it your yard? No, I I don't know what you're referring to here.
11:02:51 Okay, is there like one? because the official record is the audio
recording and not the video.
11:02:58 Would you please use your words to describe where you are moving your
Okay, I'll try to use my words, Mr.
11:03:04 Examiner. Thank you. Yeah. So in this, in this drawing there is a yellow
line.
11:03:16 Around looks like a piece of property which looks like looks to be the
Pomona woods property.
11:03:26 Is that your understanding of the property lines? Yes, okay. And you see a
red dot in the middle.
11:03:33 It says measurement location Yes, Okay, and then, because this little sign
points north south, i'm assuming directly south is a cleared area with a couple of
buildings.
11:03:50 Do you recognize that? Yes, and what is that? Come on and woods?
11:03:59 This cleared area with the 2 buildings is the Pomona wood site.
11:04:04 Oh, are you talking about on my property that's my home That's your home?
11:04:09 Okay, Okay, is this your you have more than one home on your property? No,
that's the only that's one building.
11:04:20 Okay, Thank you. And then you have this large cleared area out there.
11:04:24 Is that your yard? Yes. okay. So this yard, How?
11:04:32 How far between the Pomona would property line in your cleared area?
11:04:38 Do the trees extend from the south of the Pomonawood property line?
11:04:44 Would you say, Well, in in certain areas it's only a matter of like 10
feet.
11:04:51 Okay, all right. So your property has this cleared area, but it looks like
the Pomona woods.
11:05:00 Property is vegetated on its side. to the north of the properly property.
11:05:06 Is that correct? Just just west of that just a little west of where you
have the red dot there's when you can look right through to the where the property
is going to be, and on the edge of our property there's like I
11:05:22 had said a bunch of down trees where it's a wide open area, so that
affords me a few straight through.
11:05:30 So you have down trees on the edge of our property and the proposed
building site.
11:05:39 There's a whole big area of down. trees. Okay, So it would be possible for
either you or the applicant to plant some trees in this area and mitigate that
possible glare.
11:05:56 That you're talking about. if they planted a a bunch of trees, but I don't
think that's my duty to have to plant trees well, if you don't want to look at the
light, and glare perhaps
11:06:07 you know you could consider that as a possibility but what I don't think I
should have to do that.
11:06:14 Okay, but you're your property is pretty wide open in this area, and it's
right next to the property line and so do.
11:06:28 Do you think that you should be required to shield your light and flare
from the adjacent property owner?
11:06:33 No, because we don't have lights on at night. you don't have any lights on
in your house not at night.
11:06:40 I mean not that are gonna go affect them because there's a swale on that
side between us.
11:06:48 Okay, their their this property is up on a higher location on the
property.
11:06:54 My my house is down lower. Okay. So so have you been over to this area and
look down at your house on?
11:07:02 Have you been to the Mona with property, and look down at your house?
11:07:05 No, I have not okay, Alright, thank you that's all the questions I have
11:07:16 Okay, Yeah, let me make sure. All right, here we go.
11:07:22 Any follow up questions provider council. None from me, Mr.
11:07:28 Examiner. Okay, Ms. Kaylor any follow‐up questions.
11:07:34 I've assigned just to clarify your property is at a lower elevation than
the Pomoto Woods property to your north.
11:07:43 Right correct? So if i'm in your backyard I'm looking up right, you know
Correct?
11:07:51 Okay, and you talked about a swale. So what does it go up?
11:07:57 And then it goes down into a swell. Right on on the edge of our driveway
is a large swale that goes down, and then to the west of that.
11:08:11 This whale stops, and then it goes uphill to the said property, and in
between there we go up hill to that.
11:08:19 There's a lot of down trees and open. area. so I it would be nice if
someone actually came and looked at it instead of just looking at obey road.
Alright, alright.
11:08:38 Well, thank you for being here today, Ms. Haynes.
11:08:40 I appreciate your testimony today. if I decide that I need to do a site
visit. I will coordinate with county staff and Mr.
11:08:48 Sidals to either of them, and I wouldn't need anybody to have contact with
me.
11:08:53 But I appreciate you sharing your testimony today.
11:08:57 One last thing, Mr. sidel's and I apologize.
11:09:01 I'm forgetting. are there any photographs in the record from
11:09:06 Ms. Hein's property up into the motor Woods property.
11:09:10 No, Okay, right, thank you. All right. Well, Miss hans your excuse.
11:09:15 You're welcome to listen to the rest of the hearing as it goes on.
11:09:17 I appreciate your time today. Okay, thank you very much you can Alright,
11:09:23 So we're about to move to wetland witnesses I believe, it is that the last
topic that we're going to be covering?
11:09:32 Is that correct? for the applicant? That is our last witness.
11:09:38 Yes, and so that would be wetland rebuttal from Mr.
11:09:42 Sidel's 2, and missouri when does the county have any other witnesses that
you wanted to call?
11:09:48 I have our staff biologists who I intend to call Alright and Mr. Sidel's.
for purposes of rebuttal.
11:09:58 I assume Wetlands is the only topic you were gonna call folks for correct.
11:10:01 That's our last one all right. so is now a good time for us to take a
break.
11:10:07 We No, i'm wrong we have adam jenkins coming on for noise at noon.
11:10:11 I'm So sorry Okay, that's fine I just wanna I'm: Just shaking the trees to
see what fruit falls to the grounds.
11:10:18 Wellens is our last issue, but we have the noise, the noise experts, so
that should be the last of the fruit to drop from the tree.
11:10:22 There.
11:10:29 Okay, Oh, my goodness, Okay, We won't tell that we'll use that monitor for
any of our witnesses.
11:10:37 Let's see so I think we probably need to take a break for everybody.
11:10:41 So if you all would like up Miss kaylor is your witness next, you've got
them online and ready to go.
11:10:46 I hope. Yes, they are here. and Mr. Cycles, your expert that you wanted to
hear this testimony.
11:10:54 Are they online or available to be Yes, I see her now.
11:10:59 Oh, very good. So how much time do you? Only 10 min if we come back on the
record or 1120.
11:11:04 Is that acceptable? Alright, so we will give everybody until 1120.
11:11:12 We'll take a break and we'll come back and move to our next witness.
11:19:54 My clock shows 1120. So if council's online if you all could turn on your
video. and i'll know you're online, and you can tell me if you're ready to proceed
11:20:23 There we go. I see everybody present and accounted for
11:20:28 Am I correct in this Assuming that Miss kaylor will be calling the next
witness, unless you all have some other arrangement you've made offline, Ms.
11:20:37 Kaylor. that is correct, Alright, who will be your next witness.
11:20:42 Our next witness is Jennifer Marriott.
11:20:46 Okay, and this very out, if you turn on your video. so I can see your
screen.
11:20:52 There you are! all right, Miss Maria. If you would please raise your right
hand, do you swear?
11:20:56 Or affirm the testimony you're about to give today would be the truth.
11:20:59 The whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Yes, okay. and Miss Marriott,
have you heard any of the testimony throughout the sharing process or not?
11:21:08 And have you heard me obstruct witnesses on the process?
11:21:11 Do you think you understand it? Yes, I do alright it won't repeat that the
fiddity point.
11:21:16 You need to take a break or anything. let me know we'll take a quick
break, so you can get some water or anything.
11:21:20 Alright, Okay, Ms. Kaylor, Shoot your witness
11:21:29 Excuse me.
11:21:32 I'll start you with the water. Yes, I think I do need a little water.
11:21:37 Thank you. Miss Marriott can you please describe your qualifications.
11:21:43 I have a bachelors and 2 masters degrees in biology and in soil. science.
11:21:50 Excuse me, Hmm and i've been in the working in the consulting world here
for about 20 years now, and I've worked all over the Eastern seaboard, and then
here in Washington for the last like 8 or so
11:22:01 years, and the have experience across kind of the the broad spectrum,
environmental, consulting with wetland streams, buffers, habitat analysis, listed
species.
11:22:14 Thank you i'm gonna share my screen i'm showing you county exhibit.
11:22:23 Oh, that's not. Oh, yes, it is county exhibit for can you tell me what
this is?
11:22:29 That is my resume. Thank you. so. Mr. what did you do to prepare for
yourself?
11:22:38 Only today. So I went back through our field notes, and then reading
through the reports that I previously drafted, as well as reading the report
provided by Diane Brewster.
11:22:53 Thank you. I just generally have you conducted site business to this
property.
11:23:01 Yes, i've been to the property twice. I was there the first time in April
we're my partner and I walk the entirety of the property doing mandering transsex,
and then i've met the county
11:23:15 staff on site twice, also walking portion of the property with them.
11:23:21 Al. and have you prepared any reports relating to the project and
property?
11:23:29 Yes, I prepared a habitat that was a habitat assessment.
11:23:33 Have a upland habitat memo discussion of just what the base conditions of
the onsite habitat.
11:23:38 Broadly not related to critical areas. and then i've prepared a critical
area report, and there's a couple versions of it, as we added additional elements
to it over time.
11:23:49 And then, more recently, we prepared an upland Restoration memo to address
restoring portions of the the roadstub that had been put in.
11:24:00 That will need to be altered. And so the remaining areas, and so that
covers the vegetation plan for that.
11:24:07 Thank you. And once again i'm gonna share my screen so I am showing you.
11:24:15 Let me get to the first page here. County, exhibit 49.
11:24:20 Can you tell me what this is? That is a critical support that we prepared
for the property?
11:24:27 And then looking at county exhibit it's a odd view here, but county
exhibit 50.
11:24:33 Can you tell me what this is so that is the restoration Emo, that we
prepared to address the the restoration of the road segment?
11:24:41 That's going to be restored once the road is shifted. Thank you.
11:24:46 So, turning back to your critical areas, report exhibit 49 to ask you just
a few questions about about the report apologies.
11:24:58 I'm trying to get my windows to be in the correct place for me to be able
to see it on my screen
11:25:09 Yeah. Okay, So looking at your critical areas, report i'm gonna scroll
here, pass the table contents and to the beginning of the report starting at page
7.
11:25:31 And can you just generally describe the site for us the site is roughly 21
acres in size?
11:25:39 It's fully forested, and it has some pretty crazy topography across the
site.
11:25:48 And we initially just did. again the mandering transsex.
11:25:51 We use topography. we pulled in noah one foot contours to get the
topography, and that's what you see in our graphics, and so we use that to kind of
help gauge where our attention.
11:26:01 Should be focused as we may enter the site. So this report reflects our
findings of site existing conditions, and then our findings related to critical
areas on or near the site.
11:26:13 Okay, And And just with regard to existing conditions.
11:26:21 I'm gonna go ahead and scroll through your your database summary a
existing conditions unrelated to critical areas.
11:26:35 I'm going to go to page 32 of your critical areas report.
11:26:40 We have a graphic here. Can you just describe generally the habitat can.
11:26:48 So, as we walk the site, we noticed that there are more or less 3 main
types of forest on the property, and so to kind of facilitate conversations of how
this site the proposed project was going to impact the existing.
11:27:02 Force of conditions. We separated the forest at areas into 3 different
cover types, and it was purely based on canopy component, because there's portions
of the property that are dominated solely by conifers, and then we
11:27:15 have a nice kind of for deciduous mix and Then we have a more deciduous
heavy where you have a few conifers in the understory.
11:27:25 But they're all young and underserved trees they're not the dominant
canopy tree. And so that's what you see here is our mapping of those different
canopy cover types okay, and then turning to
11:27:38 the next page
11:27:43 Can you describe. let's see if I can fit this all on
11:27:51 One page Here, there we go. Can you describe what lens and streams that
you found on the property?
11:27:59 And maybe I need to reduce this so we can see the entire property. I'm.
11:28:04 Having some technical issues. Now it seems to have disappeared.
11:28:09 There!
11:28:13 Let's say it's just taking some time to load
11:28:23 Alright, you're at 66.7 do you want it bigger or smaller. Well, now, i'm
afraid to make it smaller, because it might disappear again.
11:28:35 But I I think Okay, thank you okay, thank you. and again remind both of
you that the audio recording is the official record. So use your words when you're
pointing or directing attention to a particular element of the
11:28:46 photograph. So, Miss Marriott, we are looking at page 33 of exhibit 49.
11:28:52 And can you please describe the critical areas that you identified on or
near the property?
11:28:58 Yes, So we started our review from the road moving west, and you see the
yellow dots on the right side of the Graphic.
11:29:06 Those are county culverts. that exist underneath Oak Bay Road, and so we
use those culverts, this kind of our baseline to start looking for drains to see
where water was draining, from and so then
11:29:19 we were looking for features that met stream conditions. so we identified
streams, one and 2, as formal streams.
11:29:28 They had a bed in a bank, and so we identified those 2 features.
11:29:32 Where both features start on the map at the western end of both features,
as they're mapped on Here we did go walk above them to make sure the streams did
not extend beyond those points.
11:29:45 And stream. one occurs wholly on site it does not extend offside It's just
this little segment, and it does continue off site to the east as it flows through
a culvert stream.
11:29:56 2. We walked with him. that general. You see the topography on the map in
that area around stream 2 that forms a little bit of a depressional area valley.
11:30:06 And so we did go and explore that portion of the valley on site to make
sure that stream 2 did not extend onto the property any more than what's shown on
this graphic here.
11:30:15 And then as far as the Wetlands, we mandering transse across the property
again, looking for low points in the landscape or water, was collecting, and as a
pause point we did do a rainfall analysis and
11:30:29 rainfall was normal except for the actual. So January, February, March
actually reflected normal rainfall.
11:30:34 April, the 20 odd days before we went on the site did reflect overly wet
conditions, and so we were absolutely able to.
11:30:42 There was water on the ground, and there was definitely ponding water in
places, and stream flowing and streams one into both.
11:30:48 So what made it a lot more straightforward to find these features, and
anywhere we saw puddling water.
11:30:53 We took a look and did soils, and these are the areas that reflected
wetland conditions.
11:30:57 As labeled A. B. D. and E. Wetland D.
11:31:04 Has part of wellndy because it's entirely off site that's based on
assumptions from what we could see from the road.
11:31:12 And we we Yeah, there was, so that Wetland D is purely off site.
11:31:17 And again. our view of it was very limited. wetland. A.
11:31:22 Is also only partially on site in the southwest corner.
11:31:25 And again we had to make assumptions because we didn't have access to
only, but the small portion of that wetland on site.
11:31:31 We could see offsite to a limited extent But the vegetation got pretty
dense pretty fast. I'll also clarify that where the wetlands occur on site the
report reflects what we see in the
11:31:44 on‐site conditions, because that's what we can speak more clearly about
and our ability to describe off‐site conditions is very limited.
11:31:53 Okay, thank you. So i'm going to move to page 11 of this report.
11:32:05 Which is where these wetlands are described is there anything else that
you would want to add to the descriptions of the wetlands that you just gave, based
on the narrative.
11:32:18 That's in your report based on the narrative this Again this narrative
reflects the conditions of these features on the site, and I would say, just from
previous previous testimony and listening on Diane brewster's
11:32:37 comments. Clearly, Wetland A should have had a more description of the
offset, at least clarifying the uncertainty in that, and stressing that more of it
was off site.
11:32:45 So what I add something, change it well, and a ought to be clarified in
the description.
11:32:50 But this is accurate, as we saw on site.
11:32:53 Okay, And And so I'm just next gonna ask you to scroll down here? to page
13 of this report other than what you described when we were looking at the
Graphic.
11:33:11 Is there anything else you would add with regard to the non‐critical area,
native vegetation and habitat. beyond the report, I think the report kinda says
what needs to be said.
11:33:23 I would just stress that there are no unique habitats on this property.
11:33:30 This is pretty standard pacific northwest forest so yeah there, There's
nothing, I think, unique here.
11:33:38 It, is it's typical of the area okay thank you So now i'd like to move on
to talk about the buffers that you identified and i'm gonna have you discuss Miss
brewster's specific comments a little
11:34:00 bit later. But first, i'd just like you to review essentially what you did
to determine the Wetland classification and associated Buffer.
11:34:10 So for Wetlands A. B and D. because they occurred at least partially, if
not entirely, off site.
11:34:19 The ratings are based on what could be observed from the project area.
11:34:23 And then based on a desktop review, where we could use database
information to supplement, and then also we used topography to again expand on.
11:34:34 We had to make assumptions because we had those those features
particularly we're off site. And so the rating system itself is a blend of analysis
of field conditions as well as things that questions that are readily answered
through online
11:34:51 databases. And so there is some the radio system is based on best
professional judgment based on the information you have available to you. and that
is what's reflected in the buffers in the ratings for these wetlands which
11:35:01 then translate into the buffers based on the Jefferson County code.
11:35:06 Okay, and for the record i'm showing you exhibit 49 page 17, which begins
your discussion of the buffer analysis and classification analysis.
11:35:19 I won't have you go through all of the details here there, There's quite a
lot of information in the in the report which I know at the
11:35:35 Looking at the project, and it's impact starting on page 21 of your
report.
11:35:42 Can you describe the project Impacts on habitat generally?
11:35:51 Generally fairly low, given it's a 20 acre site
11:35:57 We did the calculations on the area impacts, and roughly, 80% of the site
will remain in its current forested condition.
11:36:04 And the sighting of the main buildings was actually well done; that it it
was society, and mostly disturbs the deciduous, dominated forest, as opposed to the
kind of more valuable to wildlife in the area kind of for a dominant
11:36:18 force, thank you and Then, turning to project impacts to wetlands and
streams, i'm going to go back to the Graphic on page 33
11:36:35 Can you, summarize your conclusions with regard to project impacts on what
lens and streams?
11:36:41 And again I apologize when having a hard time getting this this page fully
on the screen.
11:36:45 Now there we go so as far as wetlands are concerned.
11:36:50 There's also no impacts to wetlands 4 streams.
11:36:55 The only place where there is and it's It's arguably not really an impact
given that the code Jefferson County, consistent with pretty much every other code
in Washington state.
11:37:08 There's a small area of restoration of the Wetland E.
11:37:11 Buffer that's. shown and it's not this area that's cross hatched in dark
gray adjacent to the entry driveway.
11:37:19 So it is not the dark gray cross hatch. is the current road, Stub, just
west of that road.
11:37:27 Stop There's a small kind of pinkish hatch that's at the outer portion of
wetland ease buffer, and that is an area where we're proposing to add some plants
back in
11:37:37 that was the other story was disturbed in that area because that's been a
primary point of pedestrian access onto the site. And so I wouldn't consider that
an impact, because general access for surveys and
11:37:48 survey work is all. Consider this exempt. So those are not considered
critical area impacts.
11:37:54 But we are offering to restore those areas of the buffer where there's
been enough pedestrian traffic that the the sword for an in the underst in that
area has been a little trampled so we're
11:38:02 going to restore it. But that's the only questionably impact type of
thing, and that's not an impact per code.
11:38:10 Okay, And so is it correct that all the site development avoids the
streams, wetlands and their voters.
11:38:17 Okay, I just wanna ask you on this drawing the the septic field is not
shown.
11:38:30 I am now shifting over to page 32, maybe a little bit difficult to
describe in words actually the drawing.
11:38:39 But actually, Courtney, that the drainfield is actually shown on the other
figure where you just work.
11:38:44 So if you if you notice on that figure there's a there's a kind of beige
hatch.
11:38:51 This is just a solid color that's underneath the proposed.
11:38:53 So what this is shown is the proposed project, where we have an actual
footprint of structures is shown within that brown line work.
11:39:03 So. the polygon formed by the brown lines are the physical.
11:39:05 There will be physical structural impacts in those locations.
11:39:07 This roads, its buildings, is parking underneath.
11:39:11 Of that that goes beyond the road. The brown lines around the road access
in the buildings.
11:39:17 There's this pink pinky hatch shaded color. And so, if you notice in the
northeast corner of that graphic, there is a pink shaded area, correct just north
of the blue, which is showing substantial road grades and
11:39:29 how that area is the drain field of that northeast corner where that pink
catches, and you can see that it still falls outside of the buffers.
11:39:37 Thank you. I am going to turn now to exhibit 50.
11:39:50 The upland restoration. memo and I don't think we need to scroll through
this.
11:39:56 I may find it the graphic that is associated with this memo.
11:40:00 Can you just briefly describe what the upland Restoration Memo: Yeah.
11:40:06 Is talking about. So this is taking a small portion of the current road
Step will remain with the new access road for the site where it connects to Oak Bay
Road, and then the road will have what it was redesigned
11:40:22 in response to Well and e and establish the well, any buffers.
11:40:25 And so the new road alignment has to shift away from Well and E, and so
that road, the remaining of the current roadstop area will be restored as upland
habitat consistent with the area that's around it and what was
11:40:37 impacted. Thank you. And now I would like to turn let's see to a response
to the testimony that we heard from Ms.
11:40:53 Brewster yesterday. were you here for that testimony?
11:40:57 I was excellent i'm getting a message on my screen that iphone has entered
the waiting room.
11:41:05 I'm i'm gonna go ahead movement whoever that is okay,
11:41:10 I am now turning to the memo that we provided yesterday.
11:41:20 There was some discussion. amongst the parties and examiner.
11:41:26 With regard to this, it it was admitted and apologies to to everyone.
11:41:34 I'm not sure if it received a exhibit number This morning I received a
fifth amended list, or something, so I I think you're just the Fourth, anyway.
11:41:51 I think it has, Mr. Kaylor. it has and I will need to find that a exhibit
number which I will do after this testing for the record, or perhaps Miss Early
Quinn could identify where that is in
11:42:07 this could identify where that is. so we'll we'll we'll publish a sixth
amended list, and put that in there. Thank you just for clarity in the record do
you know what
11:42:29 the last exhibit number is that we have so we'll know which one this will
be check that really quick for you.
11:42:37 I appreciate it. Thank you so I don't have to look back and forth, while
i'm sharing my screen and make everybody dizzy.
11:42:47 Right! Hello!
11:42:52 So that would be
11:43:05 Nothing wants to load quickly. I guess it's all very tired.
11:43:10 See, I I will see if I can i've got it it would be probably list number 80
83.
11:43:21 Yeah, Thank you.
11:43:29 So I will then go ahead and share my screen and I am displaying what will
be exhibit 83 and Miss Marriott.
11:43:41 I'd like to walk you through each of the comments that were made by Miss
Brewster, and have you respond to them one by one.
11:43:51 There. I we're getting into the weeds here a little bit in Wetland
classification.
11:44:00 So if there's any background information you want to provide as you
respond, that would probably be helpful for us all to understand
11:44:08 So So first the format of this memo I see you have you.
11:44:13 You have quoted the comment, and then provided a response.
11:44:18 So the first comment that you're responding to is shown on page one of
this exhibit: 83.
11:44:28 Can you please go through the comment and your response? So I think
Brewster gave a good explanation on how the Hdm.
11:44:39 System works, and how it's used to address ratings So the comment is that
my report, noted that while and A.
11:44:46 Was within a surface depression, but I rated it as a slope wetland, and so
she also had a comment on the topography.
11:44:55 And so she's right that professional surveyor did not physically survey
that portion of the property, because it would be very expensive to have survey.
11:45:03 Do full site topography on the site of the size.
11:45:06 So we did use no one foot contours and that's identified in our graphics,
where the source of our survey came.
11:45:16 That kind of comes from. and then, as far as what was in the report versus
the rating, the rating reflects the entirety of the wetland.
11:45:22 The report focused on what was visibly observable on the site, and so
there were assumptions made for the rating that should have been better described
in the report.
11:45:37 The surface depression is the portion that we could see, but we could see
also that it very clearly sloped off site and was predominantly a slope based
wetland.
11:45:49 And so that was the the deciding factor for why we rated it as a slow
wetland.
11:45:53 So there was a little bit of conflict based on how she reviewed the
information because she was not able to actually go out and physically assess the
Wetlands in person.
11:46:01 We did go through the exercise. If we were to change the rating and
acknowledge that, and rated as depression, would that change anything?
11:46:09 And what we determined was no it wouldn't because that while there are a
difference in the questions between slope and depression.
11:46:16 Wetlands, most of you additional questions for depression wetlands pertain
to development around the wetland.
11:46:24 This wetland does not have any development anywhere near it that would
trigger any.
11:46:28 The questions that differ between the slope and depression.
11:46:30 Rating systems, the forms example, where it might have made a difference.
11:46:37 You're saying in this instance, It won't because of the type of
development that might happen near it.
11:46:42 So give me something that might trigger it. Well, development within
understood.
11:46:48 So if there were septic systems without a 150 feet, if there was storm
water being discharged into this wetland, those are both examples of things that
would trigger extra points as a depression, wetland that are
11:46:59 not reflected in the slope rating form, but there is no development.
11:47:06 And again, the rating is based on existing condition not proposed.
11:47:13 And so in the existing condition, this wetland occurs in relative
isolation, surrounded by a lot of woods, and it's not near any development, and the
only thing near to it is the neighbor's house to the south and
11:47:23 that is quite some distance and down slope from the wetland, and then,
even with the actual performance project for promota woods, it wouldn't change The
proposed project is quite some distance away from this buffer in the
11:47:39 wetland, and so that that your description here in the report starts on
top of page 2 of this issue that you were just discussing, and I want to be sure
i'm i'm clear that you rated this as a
11:47:56 slope wetland based on your on‐site observations.
11:48:00 Correct. Brewster was not on site. she didn't have the the full
information that you have is that right correct?
11:48:08 She could only base her determination on what she read in my report
11:48:13 I will add that we typically don't add enough information in our Wetland
descriptions, and this applies kind of broadly to consultants, so that someone
could read a report and provide assess their own rating like complete their
11:48:27 own rating form, independent of a site visit that's not typically how
that's managed, and is it is it standard industry practice to rate a wetland
without ever having seen it.
11:48:41 It is actually, but typically, you make a clear point that it is a
preliminary rating or draft rating of some sort to acknowledge that it is based on
the not field observations.
11:48:54 Thank you, and and by by saying that even if you rated this as a
depressional wetland instead of a slope to island it, wouldn't it wouldn't change
things do you mean that it wouldn't change the
11:49:09 buffer correct. The category itself did not change.
11:49:13 Therefore the buffer also did not change thank you and so that i'm going
to move on to her next comment towards the end of page 2.
11:49:25 And can you summarize your comment and your response? So this particular
section in these 3 questions are consistent.
11:49:36 Across both the slope and depressional radian forms, and the intent of
these is water quality.
11:49:41 And what will the wetland being rated? how will it affect downstream water
quality?
11:49:47 So the first one is, does the wetland discharge directly within a mile to
some water body.
11:49:53 On those 3 d list for this one within a mile.
11:49:57 It does discharge the puget sound but sound is not a monolith.
11:50:02 It's not treated as a monolith for this purpose for the ratings.
11:50:06 So there are portions of Puget Sound that are through threed listed
waters, that they are very clearly defined by ecology.
11:50:14 So the upper limits of a part of the oak bay is actually identified, and
it's identified for bacteria.
11:50:20 But that area of the 3 threed listing is clearly mapped on the ecology,
water, quality, atlas.
11:50:27 And so, as the pro flies, we measured it at 1.4 miles, and that doesn't
account for the fact that the stream kind of goes east, and then you'd have to go
up north at the coast, so we did not we
11:50:38 checked. No, for this first question, because Puget sounds within it does
discharge a piece of sound with one of my mile.
11:50:45 But the portion of you sound listed as 3 3 D.
11:50:48 Is more than a mile away from the site from the wetland.
11:50:51 So the second one, and that's based in our sub basin and those are based
on the huck codes.
11:51:00 So this is one that we have the web codes sorry hydraulic unit codes.
11:51:07 So the yeah, at a Federal level we break down all watersheds, all water
bodies broadly in the Us.
11:51:14 Are broken down in this code system. So as 6 digit code is a basin and an
8 digit, hot code is a sub basin.
11:51:22 And so for number 2 we did adjust our ratings to account for 1 point for
number 2, because while we stand by where we, the decisions we made at the time,
and the assumptions we made, we do acknowledge that
11:51:34 that one. we probably should have checked one on that and been a little,
just a little more conservative.
11:51:42 But that also did not change the ratings. They still save category fours,
and it still does not change the buffer and the the basement.
11:51:50 And so based on what? what size area are we talking about here?
11:51:54 So, technically speaking, in this, gets really hairy in the language, and
the the vocabulary base in itself is the entirety of the Puget Sound area, from
like Everett down beyond Tacoma from from almost in
11:52:10 Port Angeles all the way in lynn from Seattle. So it's a really large
area.
11:52:15 The sub basin is basically all of Puget Sound itself.
11:52:20 And so this gets really sticky in the interpretation, because ecology also
concurrently uses the word basin for some other.
11:52:30 The language gets confusing, because they use the same terms for different
things.
11:52:38 And so was that the the reason that you did not put a one for this because
of the difference in definitions of Basin?
11:52:48 Partially. yes, and then partially just there's again best professional
judgment in the rating system.
11:52:53 Not everybody is going to rate a wetland exactly the same.
11:52:56 But the rating system was built in a way by ecology.
11:52:59 It was designed so that multiple people could rate it a little bit
differently.
11:53:03 But you should get generally to the same if you're doing if you're if
you're responding to the questions accurately, you should generally get to the same
place even if you get there by different paths so looking at this
11:53:17 Wetland, and ultimately asking the question is this Wetland going to have
a positive effect on a three‐d listed water downstream of it.
11:53:28 No, it's incredibly small way up in the water shed and there are no 3 3 d
listed features anywhere in proximity.
11:53:35 The nearest ones that were mapped in Miss brewster's report were 2, 3 plus
miles away from the site, and so it becomes a judgment call, and that's I made a
professional judgment call.
11:53:49 But again to earn the side of caution, did rewrite the Wetlands,
acknowledging that this could also be answered as yes.
11:53:55 And why it could be answered as yes, and then found that it didn't change
anything.
11:54:01 Okay, so that takes care of item number 2 let's now, discuss item number 3
on this list.
11:54:10 Whether the site's been identified in the watershed or local plan for
maintaining water quality.
11:54:15 Answer, Yes, if there is a Tmdl. for the basin in which the wetland is
found, and I will go ahead and scroll through Your memo.
11:54:24 Here to question 3 above. Please let me know if I should.
11:54:29 Sure, no, that's that's good right there so the water quality Atlas also
reflects the Tmdls.
11:54:40 If you did you go there's a bunch of different options you can check.
11:54:44 So the Puget Sound Nutrient source reduction project it's a mouthful that
is a collaborative project between multiple jurisdictions around Puget Sound.
11:54:53 It is not a team deal on the side of caution.
11:54:57 I actually did reach out to Amy Yankee on this particular question, to
make sure that I had interpreted it correctly, and she concurred with my finding
that this is not a Tmpl apologies for Interrupting who is
11:55:09 that, or you reach out to you. she is in charge of the Wetland rating
system for the part of ecology.
11:55:20 So she is effectively our any questions you have over interpretations for
the rating, and how to interpret something, how to answer a question.
11:55:25 She is our one stop shop of amy's answer is the answer. So she's their
specialist on it.
11:55:33 She's also the one that handles all of the Wetland rating trainings that
they do through the coastal training program.
11:55:41 Thank you. And so then can you to explain this issue about the attachments
or screen captures that is discussed in your in your memo here.
11:55:55 So I think there was on this one. There was a little confusion.
11:56:01 I think, on source of information. So we included maps.
11:56:09 So Ms. Brewster went on to the Ecology Water Atlas map.
11:56:14 So water quality atlas. Anyhow, there's an online mapping system that you
can access the map through an online interface.
11:56:21 And then you can print out. You can take screenshots from it.
11:56:23 You can print out, do an output from them there's also the exact same data
as a gis later layer that you can pull into Arkmap. And so she accessed the
database through the online interface we pulled the
11:56:36 Gis layers directly from ecology, and then open those up and prepared maps
in Arkmap.
11:56:43 And so the data is exactly the same. The the interface with the data is
different.
11:56:51 And so I think that was a little confusing and we will be more diligent.
11:56:54 I mean honestly, we probably should have spelled out the figures on there
a little more carefully.
11:56:59 But the figures were there. and i'm looking through the other questions to
see.
11:57:08 Yeah, the the screenshot of the list of tmdls in a riot.
11:57:12 We did not provide a list of the team deals that was in the map, but there
was a layering issue.
11:57:16 The 3 threed list layer should have been pulled up to the front, and so
things kind of got buried.
11:57:24 And so it sounds like this is really just a a matter of what electronic
program you're using or electronic source you're using.
11:57:32 But in any event do I understand your testimony correctly?
11:57:36 There. There is not a tmdl here. there is not a team deal.
11:57:43 Just to just to beat the dead horse, so to speak, but actually to complete
the record.
11:57:51 Miss Marriott, whether you have it at your fingertips now.
11:57:57 You're professional in this field you know where to pull up the department
of ecology, or the Epa's list of water bottle subject to tmdls and the portions.
11:58:16 Correct, correct? would you mind pulling up the the math that the
department of Ecology uses, that you would rely upon to make that decision for this
area?
11:58:25 And if you don't do it now, you can do it before ask for time, I would
appreciate it if that was a numbered exhibit.
11:58:34 So you could show me that. Okay, it is up here but it isn't here, or it is
here.
11:58:39 Is in my professional experiences. I know that We've used those a number
of times in other hearings, and I would like it to be part of this record.
11:58:50 If, in fact, it exists. Ms. Kaylor, you may proceed.
11:58:53 Thank you. we'll be sure to circle back to that Miss Marriott, do you?
11:59:00 How long do you think it will take to pull up that information?
11:59:04 Few minutes. Okay, How about if we do that?
11:59:08 At the conclusion of your testimony, and and cross‐examination, and then I
can provide it separately to the record. Mr.
11:59:16 Examiner. does that work for you? So
11:59:25 Let me take judicial notice of what I pull off the department of a
college.
11:59:30 You'd better rather have it come from an expert absolutely and Miss
Marianne is i'm scrolling through your report.
11:59:40 Can you just describe what these figures are on page 4 of your report?
11:59:49 Actually, these are screenshots I'm. trying to Think I think these are
pulled from very clearly from the Ms.
11:59:58 Brewster's report at the back end She had provided several pdfs that were
outputs from the waterc quality atlas, and so I took screenshots just of the pieces
as they pertained and
12:00:10 then kind of commented on each one. and so can you describe your comments.
12:00:17 The the reason for your comments, and what you're saying here on page 4 of
your memo.
12:00:27 Yes, so I did not include a screenshot of the one that was the overarching
map that just showed.
12:00:31 All the 3 threed listed features, water bodies within kind of a broad area
on the site.
12:00:37 I was. She was showing distances, Miss Brewster was showing distances
between the approximate location of the site and these different 3 threed listed
waters.
12:00:51 But I don't think it's served the purpose you wanted it to serve, because
they're some distance away, and generally up slope.
12:00:59 And so it was more just a general commentary back of I.
12:01:03 They were provided. but I was unclear. What purpose she wanted to show
with these.
12:01:08 So I was commenting back that these are the the general radius is within a
mile.
12:01:14 So a mile of the site, you can put a ring around it.
12:01:17 See what falls within there, and again within a mile.
12:01:20 Nothing shows up. Okay, downstream. Thank you. And then, moving to the
next comment which begins on the bottom of page 5 of Exhibit 83.
12:01:38 Can you discuss the comment and your response? yes, this is again, as
Brewster is looking at our data in cross‐referencing.
12:01:48 Actually what she found was a typo on our graphic for this one, because
this particular figure, if you go to the next page on that document where you
actually see the screen shot in the upper left corner of this is a screenshot of
the
12:02:03 figure, and in the upper left corner of the screenshot is text
12:02:07 That inaccurately says that dense oncut or basis plants are more than 90%
and that is erroneous.
12:02:13 It should be less than 90%. So is this another instance where you're
you're gaining information in the field.
12:02:20 That is informing your your your rating Yes, Yes, it's definitely the
difference between seeing the site in person and seeing the ones in person versus
depending on secondhand information effectively.
12:02:38 And so, notwithstanding this typo, is it your testimony?
12:02:42 That the
12:02:48 See 90% in this web. you you cut out as part of that.
12:02:51 We stand by the rating form which notes that the vegetation at this
particular in the wetland is not more than 90%.
12:03:02 Thank you. Then, moving on to the her next to the next comment, Can you
summarize the call?
12:03:17 And the response, Yes, this is again just another example of the
difference between C and the site in person versus having to depend on photographs,
and for our purposes I chose to share a photograph of a small portion of the
Wetland that was
12:03:33 the onsite portion, which is yeah what I didn't show, was another
photograph that kind of turns around and looks behind because the vegetation is so
dense in the area.
12:03:48 It does not the Wetland narrows a bit and So the photo just doesn't come
out very well, so you couldn't really see much, and so I focused on I simply chose
the photo that I thought best
12:03:58 characterized the wetland on site. And so this is just that discrepancy
coming up again.
12:04:04 So the radio form accurately reflects the vegetation condition for the
wetland as a whole.
12:04:11 And so I understand you correctly that the wetland as a whole does not.
12:04:17 Contain the same amount of vegetation as the the little piece of it that
you you photographed and included in the report.
12:04:26 That is correct, and that is reflected on the wetland rating form,
although you didn't include a photo of it in the work. Is that right?
12:04:34 Yes.
12:04:39 And so. then finally, moving on to Miss brewster's conclusion based on all
of these items, can you please describe your your response to that?
12:04:56 So the highlighted boxes are where she changed the scores based on her
above kind of assumptions based on what she reviewed and it shows her proposed
category 3 rating.
12:05:09 But I disagree with multiple ones of these scores.
12:05:13 I still stand by our ratings as they are.
12:05:16 But again, out of a budget of caution given again that we're going through
this appeal process. We wanted to be conservative absolutely.
12:05:25 So I did re‐rate, for the things that I felt could be appropriate
responses.
12:05:31 Again acknowledging the best professional judgment.
12:05:34 Aspect of the rating form, and I do not believe the site potential scores
for either wetland would change, and that would be the first row in these tables.
12:05:47 And then the other item that she changed was the the value which is the
third row on these tables, and what I did was no change to site potential.
12:05:59 I did adjust the value, and then we did re‐rate Wetland a as a depression
of Wetland rather than a slope, and these brief are being conservative, excepting
some of these revised scores.
12:06:13 But again these were such low category fours to start with they didn't
bump them out of the category.
12:06:18 The rating category for wetland threshold And so what you're describing is
on the bottom of page 7 and the top of page 8 exhibit 83. just right?
12:06:34 Correct, and what I did was screenshot the original rating forms that are
in the critical areas. report.
12:06:41 And again. This is just a small piece of the first page of the rating form
where the summary is located, and then I edited over it in red to show where the
scores where we changed scores, and then we redid the
12:06:53 math. and so if i'm understanding you correctly you're standing by your
your original scores.
12:07:03 Correct. How if you were to adjust factors where there's some judgment
involved, you would change the scores.
12:07:13 It looks like raising it by 1 point for Wetland A.
12:07:18 That's the bottom of page 7 and raising it by 1 point for Wetland B.
12:07:24 That's the top of page 8 and and then you you Move through each of the
wetlands, and adjust again by by 1 point for that judgment.
12:07:36 Call on the rest of page 8 is that what i'm seeing and that so based on
that looking at the at the top of page 9.
12:07:53 Do you believe that there should be any adjustment made to the Wetland
Buffers?
12:07:58 I do not okay And the last one was another typo, and Miss Brewster found
Yes, there was a there was a wrong label
12:08:16 So let's see here scenario just wanna check and see I have anything else
here for you.
12:08:26 I think I have one or 2 other questions
12:08:38 So we had some testimony around a little bit earlier today.
12:08:46 From one of the neighbors regarding the density of vegetation along the
Southern property line.
12:08:55 This is not a wetland issue, but in connection with your work.
12:08:58 Did you walk? Have portions of that Southern property line?
12:09:02 I did. And do you have photos of the vegetation in that area?
12:09:11 I do I can you please share those photos let's see?
12:09:21 Yes, I will object to any photos that are not in the record.
12:09:25 But if they are in the record, obviously that's fine responding, these are
not in the record.
12:09:32 These are. This would be rebuttal testimony i'll allow the photos if and
she said she took them.
12:09:40 So if do, we need to give you screen sharing privileges with Marriott or
Miss Kaylor?
12:09:44 Do you have them on your computer? I do not have them on my computer.
12:09:48 Obviously the photos that get shared I will get on my computer and
circulate around by email to everybody.
12:09:54 I don't currently have them accessible it's the the technical issue.
12:09:59 Alright. Yeah, let me sorry. Let me just pull this one photo up real
quick, and then I can.
12:10:06 Yeah, I can share
12:10:14 Helena. We might need to get Miss Mary on screen share privileges, if
that's possible.
12:10:19 Miss Marion should have screen share privileges right now.
12:10:23 Thank you very much, really appreciate you taking care of everybody like
that.
12:10:28 Alright there with me. I am because I have the original larger photos as
well.
12:10:39 From that were provided in my photo document so let's do this sorry few
extra clicks here and Miss Maria, these are photos that are not containing your
critical areas.
12:10:51 Report, or some of them actually in your critical areas. Report
12:10:55 This one photo i'm about to share is not in critical areas report
12:11:04 So this is a photo facing self from the approximate location of the parcel
boundary between the 2 properties.
12:11:18 And I'm trying to think this is roughly a quarter of the way along the
southern parcel boundary from the west.
12:11:25 So if You're, in the southwest corner of the Pomona wood site, traveling
along the east along the southern parcel boundary about a quarter of the distance
down the parcel line, they're about
12:11:35 and then face self. This is the photo that you see, and it lines up to the
assumed location of wetland.
12:11:42 B and again wetland bees, one that we evaluated from the Pomona woods
site.
12:11:50 And so again, assumptions were made, based on what was visible from here
and using binoculars.
12:11:55 But this is this: This is the viewpoint from just north of Wetland B.
12:12:00 Then to the south, and so is this generally showing the the neighboring
property from standing on the phone on a woods property
12:12:14 For the purposes of evaluating sight lines, light and glare.
12:12:18 She took this photo for purposes of evaluating wetland habitat Kaylor's
question is is obviously directed at an issue that Miss Marriott did not consider
even the even the framing of
12:12:28 the was, Does it generally show the property, the properties, 20 acres?
12:12:32 The issue is whether it shows the portions of the property where Ms.
12:12:37 Hans actually has her house in her Backyard which it obviously doesn't,
because Wetland B is not near there.
12:12:40 Okay, it's a photograph that she's described where it was taken from.
12:12:46 She said that she walked the property so to the extent as Marriott can
authenticate.
12:12:52 The fact that she was present at this point, and that this photo does or
does not fairly depict the conditions that she observed when standing there.
12:13:00 I will allow it to enter the record for that purpose. if in fact, she can
say those things, Miss Kaylor.
12:13:08 Why don't you ask some follow up questions here thank you so?
12:13:14 Miss Marriott, you I I think you've described generally.
12:13:22 Where this is, and and the direction you're facing
12:13:28 Can you let me know? Is this a photo? as the promoter Woods property
itself?
12:13:36 Is it a photo of adjacent, or is it a photo of adjacent property?
12:13:39 So this is a photo of the adjacent property to the South.
12:13:43 The Pomoto Wood site is behind the photo behind my back.
12:13:46 At this point and this photo was taken to get a general landscape position
around the wetland.
12:13:54 B. And so that was the intent of the photo for me was to have a general
landscape position.
12:14:00 Get a general idea of what the vegetation broadly around Wetland B.
12:14:05 Looked like, Yeah, and I think i'd i'd like to shift to your critical
area.
12:14:15 Report, so we can see where Wetland be is, and get a maybe a bit of a
graphic understanding of where that photo was taken.
12:14:23 Are you able to do that? I also share your critical areas?
12:14:27 Reports if that would be helpful. Yeah, I can definitely do that.
12:14:32 I was let's see alright. so Sorry I just keep rearranging my screen around
here.
12:14:46 Okay, So i'm currently showing an apologies I don't remember what exhibit
number by report is This is Exhibit 49.
12:14:55 So, and this is figure 5 have exhibit 49, then, and if you look on this
figure again in the southwest corner just off site, you see, Wetland B is labeled
on this graphic and So this
12:15:12 photo was taken generally do north of Wetland B.
12:15:17 Near the Pomoto Woods parcel limits at that southern end.
12:15:22 Thank you. Were there any other photos that you took that were in this
same general vicinity alongside the property line?
12:15:34 So. Yes, and actually, one of those is actually in my photo document.
12:15:51 Alright.
12:15:57 And this is in the photo document, and this was one that was taken, and
from Wetland B.
12:16:06 You go it's from the last photo location where we identified where I was
standing for that one.
12:16:13 If you then walk north and west from that location then you'll get to the
approximate location of where the managers residents is proposed, and so the
surveyors, so the the rough limits of the
12:16:26 buildings were all flagged in the field and that's the There's some blue
flagging right in front here in this photo, and again it's hard to see in the photo
given the scale and it's
12:16:35 and I can. I can dig up the original photos from it That will zoom up
larger, better.
12:16:42 But the the blue flag basically was the one of the edges of that.
12:16:46 The managers. the manager's residence and so I had taken a few photos in
this area, showing the vegetation again.
12:16:54 My intent in the photo was to show the vegetation that would be removed
from where these buildings were proposed.
12:17:02 Miss Maria, Did I hear you say earlier that The buildings are actually
proposed for a an area of the property that had some of the least dense vegetation?
12:17:11 Do I remember that correctly. That is correct. you can kind of See it
here.
12:17:17 We're just the the deciduous trees here are generally a lot younger than
the conifers on the site, and so they're just not as massive, and their canopies
are not as substantial that would not necessarily be true
12:17:31 of the the fifty‐foot buffer area, though, correct, that is at least
partially conifers.
12:17:41 Do you have any other photos in this General real quick is that from
exhibit 49?
12:17:47 And it's a photo document looks like it's numbered Number Oh, 8, 4. But is
that in the package that is, exhibit 49. that is thank you and what page do we have
a Pdf
12:18:02 page 56 on mine. Okay, pdf page 56 of exhibit 49 and it's a it's Appendix
d
12:18:17 D is, and David So that's the general Those are the probably the 2 main
photos that are in the report currently, and I could share some more photos that
would take more time right now for me to dig them.
12:18:32 Up, but I could share some more photos that were taken generally in this
area.
12:18:36 I think it's time to move on thank you Miss Maria.
12:18:46 I have no further questions for you. The other parties may have questions
for you, and then
12:18:53 I do want to be sure that we remember to Get that Tmdl.
12:18:58 Map of the Examiner requested after your testimony.
12:19:00 Okay, Mr. Lichman, do you have any? follow up questions from his Marriott?
12:19:05 I do not thank you, Mr. Silas. Do you have any questions from Miss
Marriott?
12:19:10 Yes, I do. so, Miss Marriott. in your response. letter, which I believe
was designated exhibit 83.
12:19:24 That's right
12:19:30 You you say on page one of exhibit 83?
12:19:34 This is discussing Wetland A. given that this wetland occurred in the
corner of the site, and under story vegetation was dense.
12:19:44 The off‐site portions of this Wetland were challenging to observe.
12:19:48 We had to make assumptions about the wetland, since we could only estimate
boundaries and characteristics based on the onsite component and what was visible
offset from our project
12:20:04 Is it fair to say, based on that that you were not able to clearly see all
the vegetation in the off‐site area of wetland?
12:20:12 A that would be correct, but I could definitely see some of it.
12:20:21 And so i the pomoto would site, is higher there's So if you look at the
topography, you can actually get high on the slopes and kind of look down and
sluice edge is very distinctive so you could see some
12:20:30 of it, but so you could see some of the offsite, but not all of the
offsite.
12:20:34 Is that it? correct? Alright, but on page 6 of exhibit 83.
12:20:40 You say the wetland condition off site did not include dense, uncut, rigid
plants at over 90% cover.
12:20:48 How did you make that assessment given that you couldn't see all of the
offsite? the portion that I could see from the off site had a very distinct
vegetation shift compared to the very dense loose edge
12:21:00 on site. So this is where the wetland shifted into a more slope
characteristic rather than a depression.
12:21:07 And so the sluice edge was focused in the depression, and so they're very
well may have been dense vegetation again.
12:21:12 Lower in the wetland to meet that 90% threshold.
12:21:16 The portion that I could observe from the edge of the property would also
have had to have been dense, loose edge and order for that to for me to be able to
check that box.
12:21:26 And so is I was comfortable, noting that there was surely at least half.
12:21:30 But we were not going to make the 90% threshold.
12:21:34 Tim is wearing my interruption you're using the term slew edge.
12:21:38 I'm familiar with plants, so I like grow I know what sedge is.
12:21:41 So you're using the word slew sl o ugh right correct, Harryet.
12:21:48 Subdue like a swap sitch. Okay, alright I just wanna make sure i'm using
the right word. thanks.
12:21:56 Well, speaking of depression, Wetlands
12:22:01 You testified that that following Miss brewster's report, you went back
and re‐rated Wetland a using a depressional rating form, Correct? and you testified
that even after you filled out that rating form, it did not change the
12:22:13 overall category of the Wetland Correct? correct in your rebuttal report
that you that we got Monday morning.
12:22:27 Did you supply a copy of the New Wetland a rating form that you just
filled out?
12:22:33 I did not, but that could be included
12:22:39 So the county hasn't seen it either huh?
12:22:41 They have not
12:24:05 Can you so I don't have this cause it's not in the record?
12:24:07 Can you call up that out of record photograph that you took from the
northern boundary of Well and B.
12:24:14 I can. Would you like me to share it on my screen?
12:24:18 And for identification purposes we can refer to that photo as exhibit
Number 84.
12:24:29 So. Miss Maria, where in this photo is the hinds residence?
12:24:34 It would be a off to the left of the so when you're staring at the photo
straight ahead.
12:24:41 There's a clearing on the right and there's a a collection of conifers on
the left side of the photo.
12:24:46 The house, if I remember correctly, is to the left of that patch of
conifers.
12:24:55 Well, that would be to the right around wetland b where it's been cleared.
12:25:01 And can we see that clearing here in this photo?
12:25:04 Yes, in the distance, the clearing being a an open area that you can look
through correct, and that's due south from the orientation of the photograph.
12:25:17 And where is the hinds backyard in this photograph?
12:25:23 Well, I don't know that I can necessarily I mean all of this everything in
front of this photo is behind the house.
12:25:32 So the question is, where is the backyard in this photo?
12:25:35 I again. If she's calling the backyard everything behind the house, then
the entirety of this photo theoretically the majority of it would be in her
backyard.
12:25:45 Where is the cleared area of the backyard that Miss Lichman was asking her
about earlier again.
12:25:49 I don't know is an acceptable answer well presumably it's the lawn if they
actually look through that cluster of conifers. You can see lawn in the distance,
and so I do see lawn. on the backs.
12:26:01 I mean I yes, I see your mouse. but, as as Mr.
12:26:05 Mcclain has reminded us, the mouse is no good There's there's conifers in
the center left of the thing, and through the conifers you can actually see the
back the the grass the the lawn of
12:26:13 the backyard is that what you're trying to show us here
12:26:26 Vibrant, bright green color that Looks like a flat plane, or you know,
rolling of you know plane of right vibrant green color is that lawn area, as you
see it to be let the record show that ms heine's
12:26:46 backyard is vibrant and green and sorry I don't need to get caught up just
that I don't like defining her backyard.
12:26:53 I was just not like I wanted to be clear on i'm not defining what her
backyard is.
12:26:58 It. This is all behind the house, nor to the west of it.
12:27:01 I can at Miss Marriott, as we're looking at this picture. that area that
you all have said you know, looks like grass or lawn.
12:27:10 If i'm the one that took picture i'm looking into the photo.
12:27:15 Is that the foreground? The closest stuff at the bottom is that where
ravine might be like?
12:27:22 It sure looks like that lawn area is up higher than everything that's
closer to me down at the bottom of the picture.
12:27:30 So to topography in this area. This is not a ravine.
12:27:34 There is a So it's a crazy topography or something like that.
12:27:43 It actually elevation wise from where this photo is taken down is probably
a good 6 to 8 foot of topo difference.
12:27:51 At least it's probably more than that as you see the whole backyard area.
12:27:55 This whole region here is on a big slope, and so the upper limits. The
higher elevations of the property to the south are obviously at the west end, and
then it graves down to the east.
12:28:04 There is a ravine. If you were to look at this photo and go turn a 90
degree angle to your left and face due east and go walk down that way about another
100 200 feet, you would get to a ravine at
12:28:19 that point. Okay, and that is the drain that becomes stream.
12:28:24 One. Go ahead, Mr. Sidel, any more questions given that you are on the
property line looking self.
12:28:34 Does this photo show any portion of the proposed 50 foot landscape buffer
on the Pomona?
12:28:39 Would property. No, this would only and and again we have survey flags
along the parcel boundary.
12:28:47 So. No, this would only show what's on the adjacent parcel to the south.
12:28:50 This is not a photo of the 50 foot buffer.
12:28:54 Right, Miss High zones. Everything you see here basically correct,
alright.
12:29:05 All right with that No further questions, thank you. any follow up by Miss
Kaylor
12:29:18 No, no, follow up, thank you. in Missouri, when I take county, has no
follow up.
12:29:24 Follow up Okay, all right. Well, Miss Marriott, thank you for being here
today.
12:29:28 Thanks for your explanations. it's nice to meet you here online.
12:29:31 Hope you have. Good afternoon. Great! thank you. Alright, Ms.
12:29:34 Kaylor. Was that your last witness for the applicants of case presentation
on the seiva view?
12:29:41 Yes, it was, thank you alright. Then I will turn to Miss Zurichman.
12:29:46 Does the county have any other witnesses you mentioned? perhaps a Wetland
person?
12:29:51 Yes, I have our staff by biologists, and this should be a fairly short
examination.
12:29:59 Are you ready to move forward now, or do you need a break I'm.
12:30:04 Okay, I I know it's the lunch hour so I'm happy to go either way Well, I
let's see.
12:30:11 Let's just do a time Budget here so you have this one witness, and Mr.
12:30:15 Sidel has the right to cross‐examine them and then, Mr.
12:30:19 Sidel's you have your wetland person who's been online, but I take it
you'll call and you have your noise person.
12:30:25 Are they ready to Let's just give a hypothetical?
12:30:27 Are they ready to go sooner than you thought the hour they'd be available
or not?
12:30:32 So the noise guy is not He was available from noon to one, but it's now
1230, as you noted he will become available against starting at 2 o'clock.
12:30:41 So I would like to go through to 2. I I think we might be done by 2 if we
keep going.
12:30:49 Well, I told him we would still be doing Wetlands right now.
12:30:52 I can try to be available between now and one. All right.
12:30:57 Let me try to i'll have to call him on the phone here.
12:31:00 I give me a second. How about everybody y'all go ahead and take a 5 min
copyright.
12:31:05 Go ahead and do your scheduling There Mr. signals and then we'll come
right back.
12:36:52 Chickens would be called Mr. jenkins to be called for a bottle on the
issue of noise. and so Mr.
12:37:00 Jenkins. If you're online alright recording all right So we took a brief
break.
12:37:06 Now we're recording again, and Mr. sydles reached out to his noise expert,
Mr.
12:37:12 Jenkins, who kindly signed on Here I see his video. Mr.
12:37:15 Jenkins, you remain under oath. You testified yesterday.
12:37:18 Thank you for being here now and accommodating our schedules.
12:37:21 That change during hearings. And so now, Mr. Cytles, be able to ask you
Some follow‐up questions on issues, and then Miss Kaylor and Mazarin will have a
chance to follow up with you.
12:37:32 As well. Mr. Cycles get the last set of questions. Are you ready to move
forward there, Mr.
12:37:37 Jenkins. Yes, Mr. Examiner, i'm ready, thank you, and I can hear you
clearly as well would expect a noise expert to be all set up with great audio
quality. you remain under oath.
12:37:48 You know what that means. So, Mr. Silos, you may proceed. Thank you, Mr.
12:37:52 Jenkins. were you present for the testimony of the landau expert?
12:37:57 Yesterday. Yes, I was alright in that case i'm sure you heard him talk
about this ldn stuff.
12:38:07 I've got his report up here this is exhibit 66.
12:38:12 He was using this you know ldn measurement basis, whereas you were using
Ld. 25 is that some familiar Alright,
12:38:21 What's the difference between these 2 standards well once once germane to
the State noise ordinance, which is adopted by Jefferson County.
12:38:30 The other is not explain. So the the Washington State code defines hourly
sound, level limits as as adopted by Jefferson County.
12:38:38 So that's really the the frame. that we're we're looking at these noise
issues within as a regulatory framework that's already set up, cause when you say
hourly noise limits you mean l the this is the
12:38:52 L. 25 measurement that you used in your report.
12:38:55 This would be the set of L, 25, La l, 2, and L.
12:38:58 Max. these are the These are the statistical hourly metrics established
under the Washington administrative code. That's what we use here. in Washington.
12:39:08 Regulating noise that's correct alright What's Lbn.
12:39:11 How is it different? Ldn. is a a minimum of 24 h average.
12:39:18 It often is as Mr. warren I mentioned is in the testimony yesterday, that
it's can see far off into the future, and on on this time scale of years or
decades.
12:39:26 But it's a minimum. 24 h noise metric that averages all of the daytime
noise levels together, and all of the night time noise levels together and then
increases the night time noise levels by 10 decibels and then
12:39:43 averages. those 2 numbers together is that 20 is what the Ldn.
12:39:49 Metric does, and given that we don't use that metric here in Washington.
12:39:57 Who does that, as as Mr. Warner cited the Federal transit in
administration, it is there primary metric for some categories of receptors, not
all.
12:40:08 Some receptors still use a an hourly Leq metric. but
12:40:14 Some of the receptors use a 24 h ldn and it's the most common department
of housing and urban development. also uses it again focused on traffic noise near
housing projects that have
12:40:30 hud money attached to them but it's historically definitely that the
transportation noise metric I'm.
12:40:36 Not aware other than the the jurisdiction I mentioned yesterday, which I
believe is Des Moines.
12:40:41 References in ldn i'm not familiar with any other jurisdictions that use
it for community noise issues.
12:40:46 So just be clear. Mr. Jenkins, you said they use it, and you said Hud used
it.
12:40:55 Hud. uses the Lb. is the Lbn. Standard. Yes, sir. How uses the Lbn
Standard specifically related to housing projects located near Freeway.
12:41:05 Is another, and what's the right the other standard? You said it was like
a time based, and this recitals called it the L.
12:41:12 25, etc. and then you use the other numbers and I think you've called
something an L. E.
12:41:16 C. So if I have one call to help you then what's the other set called,
Yeah, thank you give you a short.
12:41:25 What is it? Yes, yes, alphabet soup so under the state noise, ordinance.
12:41:29 It doesn't describe metrics. It just says the sound level shall be 55
during the day and 45 at night.
12:41:37 Between these types of properties, then it says that you can be louder
than that for periods of time.
12:41:45 So the way that the consulting community has broken that up is to look at
these percentile metrics.
12:41:49 So that's what the L. 25 all 8 L. 2 and L.
12:41:55 Max are, or an interpretation and for lack of better term, a metricization
of the Washington State code. So it's straight out of the State code, using the the
sound level limits within the Washington administrative code chapter 1 70
12:42:08 3, 60, so the L. 25, simply put, is the basic Washman State noise, code
limit between adjacent properties, and for a shorthand could we call that the
hourly metric in contrast to the Ldn
12:42:25 metric correct, so those would all be ourly metrics.
12:42:27 The L. 25 is an hourly method. I got it.
12:42:31 You can. alright you you knew exactly what I was asking Yes, i'm looking
forward to reading this part of your decision, and that's what That's what
primarily what what humans respond to.
12:42:44 We don't respond to noise on the time scale of years or 24 h.
12:42:49 We we, we, we hear the the boisterous social period we hear the garbage
truck roll by.
12:42:57 And that's really in my experience of my expertise That's why these noise
codes at the community level most often focus on those hourly metrics, because it's
measurable. it's a long enough period
12:43:07 that you can measure it, and it says it and it's it's what was developed
in the early seventies.
12:43:14 That was adopted on most jurisdictions.
12:43:19 So in in his report. Mr. Werner, of Landau.
12:43:23 Said that this project would generate only one or 2 decibels of noise
increase.
12:43:29 Did you find that testimony credible, based on the information presented
in Mr.
12:43:36 Werner's report those numbers to me add up the the the concern that I
have, or the assumptions that went into creating those predicted sound levels,
using, as I mentioned, during my previous testimony, quieter equipment than than
12:43:53 what we used in our analysis, and going back to a comment that I made on
the outset of my original testimony yesterday.
12:44:00 It doesn't it doesn't matter from a noise perspective how quiet Mr.
12:44:04 Warner thinks the site might be, It matters how loud the sites allowed to
be under Washington State Administrative code.
12:44:11 Chapter 1, 73, 60, is that 55 Decibels correct that is, if we were to look
at Mr.
12:44:17 Warner's ldn method that will be an Ldn. at 55, the 55 hourly limit during
the day and the 45 hourly limit at night.
12:44:28 That would be a Ldn. 55, which Mr.
12:44:30 Morner himself testified yesterday would be a severe impact based on his
his assessment in his report.
12:44:41 Even if this project were to comply with the numeric limits in the whack,
it could still cause a severe noise impact to adjusted properties
12:44:57 No, should there be? Yes, what would be examples of things that would
prevent this project from creating a severe noise impact a more restrictive sound.
12:45:08 Level limits, so sound level limits for this project that are more
restrictive than what's allowed by the same code.
12:45:15 What would be a reasonable sound limit for this project? Not more than 10
decibels above the existing condition is what was proposed yesterday. But did you
hear, Mr.
12:45:32 Warner testify that it would be, you know, impossible or infeasible, or
unreasonable, to to measure?
12:45:33 Or can I disagree with that statement? Do you think it would be possible
to enforce and measure such a limit?
12:45:40 Explain how well as Mr. Warner mentioned ambient conditions do fluctuate.
12:45:46 Sometimes it's higher the ambient condition is higher than the median
value, sometimes it's lower, but this is something that that noise consultants like
us with the green bush group and other consulting firms do all the
12:45:59 time where we go out and set up instruments and they log the sound levels,
and any event that's over some particular limit, we would listen to an audio file
or have someone on site making notes to determine whether that was from the project
12:46:11 or if it was from a motorcycle and with the Washington State limits, you
don't have to listen to an hour worth of audio.
12:46:19 You only have to listen to the most 15 min worth of audio per hour.
12:46:22 So it's very reasonable to do a single day or multiple day measurement,
and determine whether or not a particular site is in compliance with a limit that's
10 vegetables above and Via, that's absolutely
12:46:39 feasible.
12:46:53 Well, it depends on on the on the offending noise source.
12:46:53 If it was a mechanical unit that was consistently over.
12:46:57 Perhaps the the main Hvc. unit that we've been talking about would go
somewhere on the site.
12:47:02 We don't know where or how loud it will be but something like that.
12:47:07 If that was dominating property line noise levels, the the unit could be
hard to relocate.
12:47:13 A unit after It's installed but screen walls could be installed around the
unit.
12:47:19 Noise control devices could be installed on the exterior of the unit to
reduce the fugitive noise levels. those are a couple things that it could be done
post post construction.
12:47:30 All right. let's approach this from the other Angle because you may
remember I suggested this with Mr.
12:47:33 Warner, too. He rejected the idea of setting any kind of numeric noise
limit, as infeasible, and I think we've heard your rebuttal on that.
12:47:41 But I also asked him. Well, maybe we can approach this from the design
side, you know.
12:47:44 Are there conditions that we could impose now at the design side in terms
of equipment to be used?
12:47:54 Location of equipment, you know sound walls, things of that nature here at
the design level.
12:47:58 That would avoid a a adverse noise impact he said that wasn't feasible
either.
12:48:06 No way to no way to handle it at the design level. Do you agree?
12:48:09 Or disagree. With that what I understood from from Mr.
12:48:14 Warren's testimony was that the the conditions and assumptions used in the
prediction of sound levels.
12:48:26 In their analysis, those operating conditions would not be feasible.
12:48:29 To require the project to hold i I didn't understand that that analyzing
it during design, or determining what sound emissions from the property would be
was infeasible.
12:48:39 But that the conditions used in his analysis would not be feasible as
permit conditions, for example, where to locate the generator set, how the maximum
sound level for many rooftop mechanical equipment that those
12:48:51 assumptions themselves wouldn't be appropriate to apply apply applied to
the project.
12:48:57 Do you agree, or disagree that it's unreasonable to impose conditions of
that type?
12:49:01 Here at the design stage, if Yes, if the conditions are achievable and
reasonable, I believe it would be appropriate if they're not reasonable and not
achievable, then I don't think that would be
12:49:20 appropriate. Well, let me let me try to flush that answer out a little bit
more.
12:49:25 I guess what I'm getting at is if you're not going to impose a a noise
limit at the property line, and instead, you want it to, to, you know, Make sure
that the project just gets designed as quietly as possible.
12:49:40 How could you achieve that through through conditioning
12:49:47 It would be challenging to to achieve that through design, without giving,
as some some sort of numerical limits in the permit condition for the design.
12:50:01 So to to say, for example, that the project shall be designed as best as
possible to quiet noise emissions that could mean different things to different
people.
12:50:12 There may be cost implications of implications about To what extent voice
control may be implemented. but it's it would be challenging to implement that in a
engineering way or a responsible methodical way that is Well, documented without
12:50:30 providing some target for the design team. So, applicant you need prior to
constructing the project.
12:50:39 You have to conduct a sound analysis that looks at offside emissions from
the specific pieces of equipment you plan to install at the locations they plan to
be installed with all these other operational assumptions that have been
12:50:50 made to date, based on the actual operation of the facility, and must be
within a certain sound level.
12:50:59 That would really be the most beneficial condition even to address it on
the design side, and not the monitoring side.
12:51:05 Is there have to be some sort of numerical target for the project to
achieve.
12:51:11 Okay.
12:51:17 That was all the specific questions I have from you. Did you hear anything
about?
12:51:22 In the course of Mr. warner's testimony yesterday.
12:51:26 That you thought was inaccurate or otherwise.
12:51:29 Worthy of rebuttal Yes, Yes, and not at at the risk of compounding some of
the confusion that's been generated by introducing the the Ldn metric.
12:51:41 I do just want to clarify that Mr. warner gave testimony yesterday that
the Epa document from 1973 that we cited the green bush cited in our report
somehow. reference to 24 h cnn metric that's
12:51:56 not correct the document that we referenced the the the associated decimal
increase thresholds plus 5 and plus 10, associating those with community response.
12:52:07 Those are hourly increases to hourly metrics.
12:52:12 There is a reference. There is a document reference within the document
that we reference that Mr.
12:52:18 Warner sites in his report that does use a cnn, but are just for the so.
the hearing examiner has clarity on that issue with creambish does not propose, and
did not use it all any
12:52:28 metrics that weren't an hourly metric consistent with the Washington State
administrative code.
12:52:33 I think that's important to clarify the only party here using metrics.
that Aren't, the Washington State approved hourly approach is is the developers
expert.
12:52:44 Is that correct? saying, i'm going there, but if I were inclined to impose
a sound limit, you would recommend it.
12:52:53 Be one of those that's based on the quarter hour period, using the 55 45
standard.
12:53:00 Yes, sir; and if the examiner were to impose that presumably there would
need to be some kind of monitoring.
12:53:07 What does a professional and reasonable monitoring program look like?
12:53:14 They can range in scale from continuous monitoring, or you have a noise.
12:53:22 Monitor set up, and it's continuously monitoring noise data.
12:53:25 And that data is reviewed in periodic reports are generated that's on the
the more intense end of the spectrum.
12:53:31 Excuse me, I need to clear my throat
12:53:37 On the the less intense end of the spectrum would be quarterly or hourly
monitoring campaigns, where a meter is set up for at least 24 h more comfortably
72 h to capture just the potential
12:53:52 variation between days that data is collected by a noise expert or a
qualified firm.
12:53:59 They review the data filter out, the stuff that's not from the site and
compare the resulting filtered sound levels to whatever criteria they're assessing
against whether it's a more stringent criteria imposed as
12:54:10 a condition of this permit or the Washington State code limits, and then
they publish a report.
12:54:17 How common is it in your experience, Mr. Jenkins, to have a program like
that in place?
12:54:23 It depending upon the the project it's now i'll say that in my experience
it's not uncommon with conditional use permits, although the implementation varies
sometimes it's an annual sometimes it's
12:54:37 required to be just after the first year. Sometimes it's after the first
quarter. whether or not the reports are available, made available to the public
varies, Times are just provided to the authority having jurisdiction, and they
12:54:49 our collected there and not distributed, so the implementation of it
really varies.
12:54:54 But in my experience it's not uncommon to have that done last question
based on the materials that were supplied to the county. at the time it issued.
12:55:07 Its dns. Do you believe that the counties determination that there'd be no
significant adverse impact?
12:55:14 Was based on sufficient information to make that decision no no I don't.
12:55:19 I don't believe it I don't believe this information available at the time
the Dns.
12:55:24 Was issued was adequate to determine whether or not there would be noise
effects from the project. Thanks.
12:55:35 I know you have to jump off at one. I wanna leave some time for Cross, so
I will end my questioning.
12:55:38 There, and Mr. Jenkins because Mr. sidel doesn't control the clock.
12:55:45 In fact, I probably do i'm gonna ask you to stay as long as it takes for
the other people to be able to ask you questions.
12:55:52 They'll do their best efforts to get it done quickly Is there.
12:55:57 Let me. Do you have any questions for Mr. Jenkins?
12:55:59 I do not. Thank you. Okay, Ms. Kangler, Do you have any questions of Mr.
12:56:03 Jenkins, I do have a few. Yes, thank you. Hello, Mr.
12:56:08 Jenkins. I think we talked yesterday as well, and Courtney Kayla
representing the applicant.
12:56:14 I have a few questions for you. initially. you referenced a regulatory
framework that's already set up, and I believe you were. You were referencing the
Jefferson County Code and and the whack is that
12:56:29 right? Yes, that regulatory framework. it has maximum sound, level limits,
does it not?
12:56:39 Yes, and those sound, level limits are 55
12:56:45 Db during the day, and 45 at night.
12:56:49 Correct. Yes, and and according to your analysis, the project will meet.
12:56:57 Those limits will not Yes, so truly you're you're advocating for a
standard of significance that the county hasn't adopted.
12:57:09 Aren't you
12:57:15 I think it's it it's hard for me to answer that question because pursuant
to seepa, there's There's more than simply the the Washington State administrative
regulatory criteria.
12:57:26 There are other elements to seepa that are considered during this process
that are a bit outside my outside.
12:57:32 My per view. So I you know specifically when it comes to noise.
12:57:39 If the regulatory criteria that might be used as threshold.
12:57:44 Determination for noise effects are an adequately protective which is my
testimony.
12:57:47 They're not in this case The ambient noise environment is too quiet for
those limits to be adequately protective.
12:57:54 Then in my experience, person with the sepa looking at lower thresholds is
appropriate.
12:58:01 And so i'll just rephrase the question and I wanna clarify.
12:58:06 I'm not asking for a legal response from you I don't want to try and make
you go in that direction.
12:58:13 I'm just asking, based on your professional knowledge Do you know, has
Jefferson County adopted a significance threshold?
12:58:29 A standard that says, uses cannot generate more than 10.
12:58:31 Db. higher than ambient noise. Do you know if the county has done that. I
I am not aware of that standard.
12:58:39 I've been established by the county can you identify any other project in
the county that has had that specific condition applied to it.
12:58:50 I I couldn't off the top of my head no Okay, so so far as you know, the
county has not adopted the standard you're advocating, and, as far as you know, the
county has not applied that standard to any
12:59:02 other project in accounting. Is that right? As far as I can immediately
recall that is correct.
12:59:15 You're taking that
12:59:16 You're taking that from the epa region. 10 document That, is referenced in
your report.
12:59:21 Correct correct to your knowledge. Has the county adopted that Epa
reaching 10 document?
12:59:31 Not to my knowledge.
12:59:46 In talking about the Ldn standard you you made reference to considering
noise over a number of years or days, the Ldn Standard Isn't.
12:59:59 A an annual standard, is it? The Ldn. metric itself must be a period of at
least 24 h.
13:00:05 Thank you. So it's a 24 h metric, not a annual metric.
13:00:10 Well, the the metric itself is the minimum of 24 h the way that it's used
in the fta document that Mr.
13:00:21 Warner is referenced and brought in to the record, is over.
13:00:23 The span of years and decades. So when those are predicted They're
predicted 20 years in the future, so in that sense it is a very longitudinal, long
term metric that looks at trends over the magnitude, of years.
13:00:37 But if we were to simply calculate a Ldn value for a particular day, it
would require 24 h of data.
13:00:46 And so that metric is it is. I understand what you just said.
13:00:51 That metric is used really to evaluate longer.
13:00:55 Term changes in the noise environment that's that's correct isn't that
really what we're talking about here is a longer count. change in the noise.
environment cost better this project No.
13:01:06 The then the noise effects that I see is the most likely to to generate
complaints.
13:01:10 Right property or not, on the span of 10 and 20 years.
13:01:14 There very local and immediate day one type of facts so no, I don't.
13:01:22 I don't think those are the type of that that wouldn't describe and
capture my concerns about the noise effects from this project.
13:01:30 Okay, So i'd like to explore a little bit your statement that you made in
this testimony, and I believe in your prior testimony.
13:01:40 That it it doesn't matter how quiet it might be it matters how quiet it
could be.
13:01:48 Isn't actually what matters how quiet or loud the project will be we?
13:02:01 We don't know held out the project will be and That's part of the
challenge.
13:02:07 Let me just rephrase my question
13:02:17 These impacts that you're concerned about those would be impact from
impacts from noise generated by the project.
13:02:25 Right, those you're not talking about impacts from noise that the project
doesn't cause are you so in your work, and typically in in the work of folks in
your field.
13:02:47 Is it common to model projected future noise, as with both you and and Mr.
13:02:55 Warner have done for this project? Yes, yes, that is commonly done. and
that's really your your best professional valuation of the noise that a project may
will cause correct when the underlying assumptions go into that
13:03:14 analysis are fed with things that will actually happen. So both Mr.
13:03:19 Warner and I had to make assumptions about what might go where on the
project site.
13:03:25 That information isn't available. So, during design during final design at
this facility, that is, when predicted, sound levels can be made based on actual
drawings of mechanical equipment, actual mechanical equipment selections the
resolution of whether or not
13:03:40 garbage is going to collect, be collected on site when it's all that is
known and documented.
13:03:46 Then a consultant like myself for Mr. warner can could update the models
that we've done based on the actual design information to predict sound levels from
the site.
13:03:57 The information is not available. you'll see the the lack of uncertainty
and the amount of sound that might be generated by the site, just simply comparing
the range in our predictions.
13:04:06 The Green Bush report really focused on what emissions might come from the
site based on a reasonable operation an interpretation of the operations that are
reasonable in our experience, based on what's in the record while still complying
with
13:04:18 code. And then Mr. Warner took a different approach you know we've got
very different answers, which goes to show how the lack of specificity in in the
input data to both of our models based on what's in the record So
13:04:33 while that methodology is appropriate for modeling it's the uncertainty in
the input data that is resulting in these these large differences in our predicted
sound levels.
13:04:46 I understand that it wasn't quite the question I was asking Oh, sorry,
good rephrase for me.
13:04:51 Sure. Yeah. the question I was asking is that
13:04:57 Based on the assumptions that you put into your model or the what what
you're attempting to do is to project noise that the project may generate.
13:05:09 Correct based on those assumptions. Okay, And as you say at at this stage,
without having completed construction drawings.
13:05:23 That's the best available information isn't it correct And so, right now,
we have modeling that provides sound levels.
13:05:37 Of what the project may generate, based on best available information
13:05:47 No I I wouldn't I wouldn't say that's correct
13:05:51 You have 2 noise models you have a noise model that's based on what code
would allow the project to generate.
13:05:56 And that's what Green Bush put together and then you have another model
based on information that Mr.
13:06:02 Warner thinks will be used in the facility but as far as I can tell, it is
absent of any direct input from the applicant about what actually will go where
we've got specific generator sizes that were cited by
13:06:14 Mr. Warner, that aren't for buildings they're for lighting plants on
construction sites.
13:06:20 We have a mechanical unit located on the roof that's much quieter than
what I would typically see on a facility like that, and that, as far as I can
understand, based on his testimony report wasn't clear equipment
13:06:30 selection that came from the applicant. It was something Mr.
13:06:33 Warner thought might be used so I know I wouldn't say that that represents
best available information based on what's in the record, and what Mr.
13:06:42 Warner was left to assume. I Think that's probably the best that could
have been done from from his analysis.
13:06:47 But I would not say it's it represents a reasonable Yeah.
13:06:51 S estimation of what type of noise this facility will be generating.
13:06:58 I I hope that that answer make make sense and addresses your question, and
I understand that you and Mr.
13:07:02 Warner different in your assumptions, and what you believe is reasonable.
13:07:05 I think Mr. Warren's report speaking for itself as to Why, he leaves those
assumptions are reasonable.
13:07:15 But what what I was asking you is that currently you?
13:07:22 You have modeling 2 different models. Yes, that indicate what sound levels
the project may generate based on information is currently available.
13:07:34 And both models indicate that it will meet county noise standards,
Correct?
13:07:43 Correct for the numerical whack limits that's correct Okay,
13:07:53 So I wanted to talk a little bit about ambient sound levels.
13:08:01 I believe you indicated those conflictuate. Correct?
13:08:05 Yes, And so, for example, or sound levels higher when it rains.
13:08:15 Yes, okay, Might somebody knowing their long like that effect? Ambient
sound levels?
13:08:27 Might might somebody music affect ambient sound levels.
13:08:36 Might a dog barking affect ambient sales. Yes, and
13:08:44 So if you were to measure ambient sound levels, you you would get quite a
range right?
13:08:52 Correct. Okay, and just looking at your report for example i'll just hold
up so real quick.
13:09:01 When you i'm looking at exhibit 29 page 8 and this is your measured hourly
sound levels correct and table 5 that's correct and just looking at that first line
the Oh.
13:09:26 25 noise metric You have a range there of 29 to 52 correct, correct,
13:09:38 And so that is a range of 29 to 52 measured hourly sound levels.
13:09:46 It's all right. Yes, for the date. correct Okay, kind of a range of 23 to
40 for the nighttime.
13:09:55 Correct. Okay, daytime sound limits under the whack or or 55 right?
13:10:03 That's correct So again, you have quite a range. 29 is is well under but
52 is pretty close isn't it pretty close to to the daytime limit Yes, it is pretty
close okay, i'm looking
13:10:28 at the nighttime levels 23 again.
13:10:30 It's pretty little bit, but 40 is pretty close to my time level 45 isn't
it it.
13:10:35 It is relatively close, I mean pretty close, as a sort of a is a fairly
loose term in acoustics.
13:10:40 But when we say pretty close to 2 to 3 desktop so 5 decibels, I wouldn't
quite say it's pretty close.
13:10:47 But I I it's it's 5 that's It's within 5 decibels I I I appreciate your
exactitude.
13:10:55 Thank you So
13:11:01 So what i'm saying here is a on the upper end a daytime.
13:11:08 Measuring sound level 52. If we were to go 10 above that.
13:11:15 That would be a limit of 62 higher than the whack limit.
13:11:20 Correct, yes, that's that's not what i'm proposing.
13:11:24 But yes, And so I I I think the question I want to ask you, based on this
is that you know, even in the 2 days that you measured, there was some variability
in ambient levels, significant variability. Correct?
13:11:45 Yeah, I I would say the veryability amate levels was was consistent with
with this sort of environment.
13:11:51 I wouldn't say it was any more varied than another. It would abnormally
vary.
13:11:56 It was louder than the medium, but it was also quite quieter than the
meeting.
13:12:00 If you look at the low end of the night time, L.
13:12:02 25. you have 23 decibels that's real farmland.
13:12:05 I mean that's that's very very quiet so you know in our analysis. we
didn't focus on the quietest hours, and you know your questions are focusing on the
on the loudest hours we you know we focused on those
13:12:16 median values that tried to represent the ambient conditions without
favoring one or the other.
13:12:22 But you know down the middle what is the t typical expectation for an
hourly high time. sound level, and it's 31.
13:12:28 So if you look at just the 23 that's you know, 22 decibels less, and what
the State code is.
13:12:38 So there's quite a there was quite a range both higher and lower than the
media.
13:12:41 Sure I appreciate that. And so, looking at the Median then just say for a
daytime being 39, I wanna understand what you're suggesting.
13:12:53 Are you suggesting that there be a sound level limit set at 10 Dv.
13:12:58 Above that 49 Decibels hourly L. 25 during the day, and 41 Decibels early,
all 25 at night.
13:13:06 That's my suggestion correct but here We're, seeing it in your analysis
that there are times under current conditions about the project that exceed during
the daytime exceed 49 Dba.
13:13:28 I was. yeah succeed 49 Db. correct? correct there may have been I haven't
gone through and count counted the hours that did.
13:13:34 But there was certainly at least one that did That resulted in the range
show
13:13:49 And so then, following that thought through, you took measurements on 2
days.
13:13:58 Correct. It was more than 2 calendar days. pull up popular report where
you can share what you The document you are referring just sharing and go to the
appendix.
13:14:13 Believe it was a total of 4 calendar days, but I wanna be accurate.
13:14:17 Hold up!
13:14:37 Okay, So in our report, exhibit a record exhibit 29.
13:14:43 We measured sound levels on a total of 5 calendar days.
13:14:47 Some of those were half days a total of 5 different calendar days.
13:14:56 Was it, for example, raining during any of those days Let's see I don't
believe there was any precipitation.
13:15:05 I know we would have mentioned that in our report. let me verify
13:15:13 When can do i'm reading from page 6 of our exhibit 29 wind conditions
range between calm and 4 miles an hour, generally from the west and west southwest
temperatures range between 34 and 55
13:15:28 degrees. There was 1 point, 1 4 inches of precipitation.
13:15:32 On April eighteenth, 2022. But if would have accounted for some elevated
sound those sound levels compared to days without precipitation.
13:15:43 Do you know, if anybody modes or lawn during that time, I do not know if
anyone vote there long.
13:15:51 Do you know if anybody had a barking dog during that time, I don't know
how many dogs barked if any, during that time?
13:16:00 Do you know, if if anybody was playing music during that time?
13:16:06 And so, really your your ambient readings that you're suggesting the
standard be based on
13:16:17 It's just a small snapshot of the full year of of sound levels. Correct?
13:16:24 Correct
13:16:45 And just wanted to circle back. then on monitoring and your suggestion for
monitoring I under your suggestion.
13:17:01 You. I believe you said not. sounds would be recorded over a certain
period of time, and then someone would review the data and filter out stuff that
was not from the site.
13:17:16 Do you remember saying that
13:17:22 I'm to blame. So the more technical term would be events.
13:17:27 But yes, that was that was the intent of what I was trying to express.
13:17:30 Thank you. Okay, thank you. And how would that be filtered out?
13:17:37 Would that be somebody to listen to it? And a human predicament need to
listen to that?
13:17:40 Yes, it would be a human listening to an audio file to determine whether
or not the event was more likely from the site or not, So was it an airplane that
flew over?
13:17:46 Was it a motorcycle looking by on the street?
13:17:51 Was it a car horn? So all those things I I I came up with a few potential
suggestions and things that could affect this.
13:17:59 24 h measurement and I think you've just added some more.
13:18:02 Could an airplane impact those sound levels. An airplane is something that
would would show up to be listened to and filtered out or not depending on.
13:18:11 This the project, this specific project, obviously would would filter out
aircraft operations. and then a a car horn.
13:18:22 Would that also need to be filtered? out yes, it depends on who was doing
the filtering?
13:18:28 But it, I believe it unlikely based on the the layout that I've seen at
the site that H.
13:18:33 Corn car horn soundings would occur on the site certainly it's possible if
you get someone that is hard happy. but that would be something that would need to
be considered whether or not it would be something that was from the site or not
which is
13:18:44 really the goal of the filtering Is Was this noise event from the site, or
was it not?
13:18:50 And that would depend on the on the category of noise.
13:18:53 Event, so a human would need to review 24 h of sound readings.
13:19:01 Is that right
13:19:09 So a small subset of that full amount of data that was collected.
13:19:14 So the way that that monitoring typically works is any hour you don't just
listen to all the all the audio files.
13:19:22 You look at the measured sound levels, the L 25 hourly metric, and only
were the measured sound levels exceed the criteria.
13:19:31 Do you investigate by listening to the audio files?
13:19:34 Cause all the other hours would represent a cumulative level that's at or
below the criteria.
13:19:40 Therefore not worthy of investigation. The hours that are above the
criteria would be investigated, and at most someone would have to listen to 15 min
worth of audio files for a specific hour.
13:19:53 Usually it's much less typically you have an event exceedance let's say,
for example, an aircraft those aircraft flyovers typically span 10 s. or so So
listening to one or 2 s of an
13:20:05 audio file gets you 10 s worth of productivity if you will so there's not
a one to one relationship.
13:20:13 It usually takes much less time to listen to those audio files to
determine.
13:20:18 The the noise source that created that exceedance and filter.
13:20:22 Whether or not it was from the site. or not but you don't really know how
many exceedances would need to be reviewed for a name. correct.
13:20:32 You don't know that until after the monitoring is complete and that's
correct.
13:20:37 And so I believe you answered this question with regard to the noise
standards.
13:20:42 But are you aware of any project in Jefferson County that has been
required to monitor in this way to satisfy requirement?
13:21:00 Not to go more than * db. above ambient noise.
13:21:07 Not off the top of my head. Do I? do? I recall a project that has that
that type of permit condition?
13:21:13 Okay, Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank you.
13:21:21 Recitals Certain. Do you have the follow up questions? No, thank you, Mr.
13:21:24 Examiner, and thank you, Mr. jenkins for staying late.
13:21:27 I know you had other obligations. Yes, I I hope that there was no rush on
the parties.
13:21:33 Everyone felt they got the ask the questions they had hope to, and I
appreciate you being respectful of of the timing.
13:21:40 Thank you for being here today. appreciate your testimony.
13:21:42 It's nice to meet you online. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
13:21:44 And till our pass cross again some other time likewise.
13:21:49 Thank you, Mr. Sander. Have a nice day be well, alright.
13:21:52 So we've concluded the noise expert and it's late.
13:21:57 It's 1 20 and I don't want anybody to force fast, anything.
13:22:01 So. Do you all want a lunch break, or would you rather keep going?
13:22:05 And any one of you can say you would want to break and we'll take one.
13:22:09 But if all of you agree to keep going we'll keep going
13:22:18 So it's just this this is barbara earlier man.
13:22:21 I'm just wondering am I correct? that We have Donna Frost home. Who's my
step?
13:22:27 Biologist her testimony. And then, Alex, you have another witness.
13:22:34 Yes, Diane Brewster, our wetland expert will be repeated.
13:22:35 Both your and Ms. caylor's Wetland people.
13:22:38 Okay, and that's it Yep, it sounds to me like it would be good to take a
break now, because otherwise we'll be here till 3.
13:22:49 30 all right Why, don't we take a break and Let's go until we'll start
right at 2 o'clock, and the last witnesses my hope is will take more than an hour.
13:22:59 You all have been moving through your focused questions quickly.
13:23:05 And efficiently, I should say and then we'll i'll hear from you all if you
want to make closing arguments on the record, or if you all want to consider post
hearing briefs, and you all can look at your notes and let me
13:23:17 know when we're done with the witness testimony today, and we'll take care
of any housekeeping before we close today.
13:23:23 So it's now 123 will take a tardy lunch break, or whatever you want to do
until 2 o'clock, and we'll come back on the record.
13:29:02 Thank you.
14:00:02 I hear the recording has started. so we'll go back on the record. it's now
2 o'clock after our my apologies are tardy.
14:00:11 Lunch break, or whatever you wanted to do during that recess.
14:00:16 And now would be an opportunity for his the county to call their last
witness.
14:00:22 And my understanding is. Mr. Signals, the appellants have one witness
left, and that's the wetlands biologist rebuttal.
14:00:30 And then we'll talk about closings and how that might happen today?
14:00:34 Are there any other procedural issues that I need to be aware of before we
start with our last 2 witnesses?
14:00:40 Hearing nothing. is there, Litman? Would you like to call your next
witness?
14:00:44 Thank you. I call Donna Frostwall
14:00:52 And do. There we go. Hi, there, Miss Frost home! Alright, if you there you
go.
14:00:59 You have your microphone on Miss Frost home. Have you been listening to
testimony for the witnesses today?
14:01:04 Yes, I have. And have you heard? My name is to witnesses how it works?
14:01:11 Or do you need me to go through that for you? you ready to go if you would
please raise your right hand.
14:01:18 The you swear, or a firm that testimony you might give today will be the
truth, the whole truth, or nothing but the truth.
14:01:26 I do, Missouri men, you may start your questions. Thank you.
14:01:31 Good afternoon, Donna, and thank you for hanging in there on this for the
last 2 days.
14:01:38 Appreciate it. So first tell us where you work and what your job title is.
14:01:47 Okay, I work at Jefferson County Department of Community Development, and
I am an associate planner.
14:01:54 And what L. specialist is in the department? Thank you. And how long have
you worked at Jefferson County Department of Community Development?
14:02:02 6 years. Okay? and can you tell us a little about your educational
background?
14:02:12 I have a bachelors of science in biology.
14:02:15 I have taken graduate level courses in soil, taxonomy and more biology.
14:02:24 Plant, I identification taxonomy, and also in fish habitat, restoration,
stream, habitat restoration.
14:02:36 Okay, So what is your role at i'm gonna call It DCD: So we don't have to
say department of community development.
14:02:45 A bunch of times. what's your what is your job at DCD.
14:02:50 Consist of. Yeah, I I was hired on for my wetland expertise.
14:03:00 Little over 16 years ago, and so I do a lot of the Wellland reviews and
other aquatic resources. I do a lot of the shoreline permitting, and in addition to
that, grants that have need of
14:03:20 of biological expertise. I work on those Grant planning type land use type
grants for the county department of community development.
14:03:31 Okay, alright. So have you reviewed? Do you re view proposed development
for impacts from 2 critical areas?
14:03:41 Excuse me. Yes, I do. alright. and is it safe to say that you're very
experienced in reviewing critical areas impacts under Sepa and the code.
14:03:58 Yes, it is okay. Thank you. I will ask the hearing examiner to qualify
Miss Frostwom as an expert with respect to impacts, to critical of development, to
critical areas
14:04:16 Sorry, Missouri. When can you repeat what field you would like her to be
designated as an expert on the impacts of development upon critical areas?
14:04:27 Okay, Any objection for Mr. Sidles or Ms.
14:04:30 Kaylor. No objection, no objection. Hearing none, I will designate her an
expert in those fields.
14:04:38 Thank you. Can you describe the process? You go through and reviewing a
development application for critical area related impacts?
14:04:49 Yes. So when an application is is received, the first step is to look at
the gym.
14:05:02 What the various layers indicate. They they can give you an indication of
the potential for a regulated critical area to occur.
14:05:13 It's not definitive, but it gives some indication and so that is the
starting point, and if there is any indication that a critical area is present on
the property, one is requested of the applicant.
14:05:28 If it was not submitted at the time of application once submitted, it's
reviewed to see if it meets the Jefferson County Code requirements for preparation
of critical era by critical area or is what we call a special
14:05:43 report. And so in A. in a nutshell. that means is the project area
described is the proposed project described are the potential are the wetlands and
streams that are on the property addressed in the report and fully
14:06:05 described, and all supporting D forms for the wetlands included in the
report.
14:06:10 So, and then some development does not impact wetlands.
14:06:16 The the proposed red structures or use is outside of the wetland, wetland,
buffer stream, stream, buffer, or a shoreline and shoreline buffer.
14:06:28 And so those, though those do not need mitigation, However, some proposals
do impact the critical area or the buffer.
14:06:40 And so, then the the what is put into the report by the consultant.
14:06:47 For as far as impact, assessment and mitigation is reviewed, and at any
step along the way it a site visit, maybe needed to confirm one, whether the report
is needed at all, or to whether what is in a report is
14:07:03 accurate. Okay, thank you. So I understand. There was sort of an unusual
progression of things in this.
14:07:15 In this particular case on Pomona woods. first of all.
14:07:22 Have you been involved with this case since it came into the office?
14:07:28 I have been involved with this application since mid to late July.
14:07:36 As as we know, Amanda Hunt is the the planner who took the initial review
of the proposal, and I have since been involved with it, which brings it to mid to
late July that I have been involved of
14:07:51 this year of i'm sorry Yes, 2021 Okay, great.
14:07:58 Thank you. So Can you describe your wait a minute.
14:08:05 Your question was this year, and then she said, Yes, and instead of 2021.
14:08:09 So, Miss Frost home, Would you make it clear? when were you first involved
in reviewing or addressing this application?
14:08:17 July 2021 so i'm a spoken if I said yes, and and how did you first become
involved with this project?
14:08:28 Amanda hunt. the project Planner contacted me as she noted in her
introduction.
14:08:36 No wetlands or streams are mapped on the property or in the immediate
vicinity of the property.
14:08:41 However, one of the Gis layers for contours indicated that there's the
potential.
14:08:47 It looked like there was the potential for streams to occur, especially
given the callverts that are in the area.
14:08:55 So she contacted me about making a site visit. Okay, And did you make a
site visit?
14:09:01 We made a site visit and let's see August Boggus, 2021.
14:09:13 And what did you find on your site visit? So during the site visit?
14:09:21 All right, so I guess I should back up. So the the contours that were in
question were so at the lower elevations, meaning the area along Oak Bay Road.
14:09:35 So our our assessment focused on that area, and we went up just a little
bit and then onto the property, and then we cut over to where the
14:09:48 The contours were that indicated that there was a depression, and we
walked to both of them, and at the time I was out there, which is August, is a dry
time of year, and based on my observations.
14:10:05 I did not see any defined bed and bank. I did not see water.
14:10:09 I did not see scouring, so at that time I concluded that what based on
what I could see at that site visit there were no streams on the property.
14:10:22 Also as we walked. Oh, you know in the I.
14:10:30 The north south direction, on along parallel to Oak Bay, to the
depressional areas.
14:10:35 I did not see any areas that were dominated by hydrophobic vegetation, so
there was no need to request a wetland report at that time.
14:10:45 Okay? And then, did something change to during the the course of the
project application that caused you to go back out there again.
14:10:59 Yes. So Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife received, and some
emails, I believe they were from in A.
14:11:11 J. A. A property owner in the area, indicating that there were wetlands or
streams on the pro.
14:11:18 On one of the properties, and I think the intent was that there may be
buffers or other things on deployment.
14:11:26 What's property? So Washington Department fish and wildlife went out to
the property and determined that it was not a stream, and that it was likely a
wetland at that point we asked.
14:11:43 You know the applicant to address this as well as any other potential
wetlands or streams that could occur on the property.
14:11:51 So just to to get that clear. So Wdf W.
14:11:58 Went out to? Was it to the Pomona Woods property, or was it to the
neighbors property?
14:12:14 Okay, did. they did. Wdf: W. also visit the Pomoto website, not to my
knowledge.
14:12:26 Okay.
14:12:30 Alright. So then, what was the next step? after that?
14:12:35 The next step was scheduling a site visit with the apple Kent and the
applicants biologist.
14:12:45 And when was that we went out? and april 2022 that's when we I met the
applicant, and and her biologist and the biologist had gotten there before me and
had already done
14:13:08 the walk through the property that she had mentioned earlier this morning,
and
14:13:17 So from there they guided me to the areas that they had identified.
14:13:21 Okay, and where it is, Yeah. So we walked along Oak Bay Road, and that is
where the the stream, the string that is on the the property was identified.
14:13:38 It, in fact, did have water, and had had water for a while.
14:13:44 So it was concluded that that was a stream, and then we zigzagged up the
hill looking at various channels and till we got up to pretty much where the the
place where Miss Marriott showed her her Photo this morning where
14:14:06 we could see, had this open view looking due south on to Wetland B.
14:14:14 So we kind of zigzagged up the property and then over the the property
line is marked from the property line.
14:14:22 We looked at what she had come up with for Wetland. B.
14:14:30 Okay, and I i'm screen sharing a map that comes out of the critical areas.
14:14:34 Report that Jennifer Marriott authored, and does that look like an
accurate depiction of what you were just describing?
14:14:45 Yes, it does. Okay. alright. So you had the opportunity to do site visits
out here, and you looked at all of you.
14:14:58 These features that were at least the ones that were on site, the portion
that were on site.
14:15:06 Correct. Okay, Just for the record is there? like menu pulled up a part of
exhibit 49.
14:15:14 That would be on page 33 of 127 right?
14:15:18 That is correct. Yes, your your honor that's correct Okay, so I wanna move
on now to the reports that were filed.
14:15:31 I'm, assuming that you have reviewed Jennifer Marriott's report, which is
the one I have pulled up here, exhibit 49, and I know I forwarded you the Brewster
report which
14:15:47 you just received Monday morning. so i'm wondering if you've had the
chance to review both of those exhibits.
14:15:56 Yes, I have. Okay. So it appears that there are some discrepancies between
the 2 reports, and you know maybe the easiest way to go through those is the new
exhibit 83 which i'm assuming
14:16:16 You've also had a chance to review which is a rebuttal from Wetland to the
Diane Brewster report.
14:16:28 Have you reviewed that one as well? Yes, I have. Okay.
14:16:32 So for the record. This is exhibit 86, and i'm on page one right now of
that report.
14:16:44 So i'm gonna get lost in the technical terms here. but i'll try to to
stumble through them
14:16:54 So the first issue that the Diane Brewster report addressed was, that
Wetland.
14:17:05 A rating is the wrong hydrogenomorphic class.
14:17:08 Rating form. Thank you for that. argument that was made by Ms.
14:17:15 Brewster in her report, which I believe was exhibit 69
14:17:24 Yes, I am familiar with that. Okay, what is your you've read the reports.
14:17:30 You've read the response, and what is your reaction. to what you've read
the the Wetland is definitely on a slope, and that, as Miss Marriott was saying
this morning.
14:17:51 Where you look at that wetland you're in the high spot.
14:17:56 And so you're looking at the yeah wetland but it's very clear from the
topography at during the site.
14:18:05 Visit that the Wetland continues and it's in the D.
14:18:11 Down gradient way. So it it is on a slope.
14:18:19 Because I think all myself included. I think at this point all 3
biologists agree that there's uncertainty when you cannot see the off‐site portion
of the the wetland.
14:18:34 But what I can say is the wetland is definitely on slope, going down
gradient from the portion.
14:18:46 The design site, and Miss Frostall would you let me know where that
wetland that you're speaking of is located.
14:18:56 It is Wetland, a in the southwest corner of the property.
14:19:01 So we're talking about the one that is on the Pomona Woods property did
extend down towards the property to the down gradient towards the property to the
south.
14:19:16 I guess. curves around to the southeast so it's that per portion that goes
down towards the south southeast.
14:19:25 That none of us are able to see. so I think
14:19:36 The statement made by Miss Brewster was that it was a it should have been
shown to be a depressional wetland rather than a sloped.
14:19:45 Wetland. although it sounds like it really has features of both right.
14:19:53 The that is correct, and you know, without
14:20:03 So I I guess it It it does have characteristics that I guess could be, or
you'd have a a depression.
14:20:15 But how much of that is the hdm for the entire wetland we won't know,
because the wetland extends off site.
14:20:24 So in in lieu of being able to to see the entire wetland.
14:20:34 I think that, Wetlands, Llc. did the right thing by calculating what the
rating would be if it were rated as a depression, because that would be a It would
be a higher rating It would be more
14:20:51 protective it it. it had the potential to change the wetland points, and
therefore the buffer will.
14:21:03 Because, as as Jennifer Marriott said yesterday, the slope wetland is more
likely to give you a lower total points.
14:21:17 But again the the wetland is on a slope.
14:21:25 And so it was a questionable call Okay, let's move on to
14:21:38 The second issue. that shh was in Miss brewster's report, and this was
about the I believe they call it the S.
14:21:51 3. Oh, water quality function on the ecology rating form.
14:21:55 And she alleged. Miss Brewster alleged that the form was not filled out
correctly regarding water quality improvements provided by the Wetlands.
14:22:08 And i'm thinking that we probably need to go back to one of those forms to
look at the questions.
14:22:16 So I will do that. Let's go to exhibit 69 cause.
14:22:21 It's easier to find these things exhibit 69 and this is page 2 of that
report, also 0, 8, 7, 8 in the bait stamped version of This report.
14:22:39 This is Miss brewster's report so there are 3 questions that this section
s 3 O. addresses.
14:22:48 The first is, does the wetland discharge directly within one mile to a
stream, river, lake, marine water that is, on the 3 o 3.
14:22:58 The water quality list, I believe. Ms. Brewster answered.
14:23:04 Yes, and I think we heard. Miss Maria testified this morning that she
believes the answer is, no
14:23:12 So what is she? reaction to these 2 arguments? I am saying that the answer
to that is no
14:23:23 I also calculate recalculated the distance. Once I I reviewed this report.
14:23:31 And and I the closest one, was over a mile away the closest of those red
polygons that were in the the Brewster report.
14:23:49 And so I am an agreement with lc excuse me what lens L. i'll see that the
answer to that is no okay, And then
14:24:00 The second question is, the is the wetland in a base or sub basin.
14:24:06 I think she met Basin here, not basin Yes, based in her sub basin, where
an aquatic resources on the 303 d list, and I believe Miss Marriott said this
morning that's a more amorphous
14:24:24 sort of response, because basically the whole queue just sound is
considered to be a basin.
14:24:36 So I think she's in in a conservative world? She would have said Yes, the
answer to this is yes.
14:24:44 Would you agree with that, or disagree with that?
14:24:50 This is one where where you draw the lines for the sub basin.
14:24:58 Does probably how you interpret this.
14:25:05 And I have seen hydrologists who subdivide, you know, a large parcel into
flows within the parcel is, and calling it, set up basins.
14:25:16 And so when you look at where the wetland is, I mean the the flow goes
down gradient, hits the roadside ditch, and then flows through one of the culverts
and down gradient, which I have not been
14:25:32 able to access that's off site. there is no defined channel on the
topography, and so this is why
14:25:45 I did not question this in the when the form was originally submitted, it
seemed to me that the answer could be No, but I I hear what Jennifer Marriott said
earlier this morning, and I think the
14:26:04 interpretation that you take it all the way down to the water is is
acceptable, and that you can say yes.
14:26:12 So I I don't think it. actually ever answers your question, but what i'm
trying to say is the determination of the sub basin is quite amorphous.
14:26:23 Okay, thank you. And then the third question was, Has the site been
identified in a watershed or local plan for maintaining water quality?
14:26:35 And it says, answer, yes, if there is a Tmdl for the basin in which the
wetland is found, and I am not aware of atmdl for this.
14:26:52 This where where the water likely discharges. And so the answer to that,
in my professional opinion, should be, No, thank you, and and to to and just to
make sure I was right, I did go back to the accountology guidance, for
14:27:12 how to interpret that, And I still believe that the answer should be No.
Okay,
14:27:19 Do you Wanna explain that in a little more detail? the the the Ecot
Washington State Department of Ecology out the Wetlands rating system, and for that
question one of the things they they say is, you know that the
14:27:45 Tmd is also called a water cleanup plan and so i've also searched for
water cleanup plans for Oak Bay, and I I find nothing that would indicate that
there is a tmdl for that the oak
14:28:02 bay in the area, or the project up down gradient from where the project is
proposed.
14:28:09 So that is why I believe the answer is No. Okay, So you refer to a
document from the department of Ecology.
14:28:17 Could you just give us. The title of that so that we're we have the record
straight about where you receive that information from, or where you research this
question it.
14:28:31 It's also I believe referenced in the critical areas report because it's
what you know, and it's in our code.
14:28:37 But it is called the Washington State Wetlands rating System, Western
Washington, and the forms that Jennifer Marriott filled out.
14:28:53 We're based on that document ecology. thank you so I want to go back to
exhibit 83, which is the most recent wetland Response document came in this or
yesterday.
14:29:13 I excuse me excuse the scrolling to
14:29:25 Well, there is this question about the cover. This is which one.
14:29:34 This is Wetland. Sorry i've gotta get my bearings here just a moment.
14:29:41 Wetland e and there's there was what Jennifer Marriott identified as a
typo on this particular or the picture in the exhibit.
14:30:00 And this is page 6 of exhibit e 3 don't have any bait stamps yet.
14:30:07 And you can see here in the in the figure that she says dense, uncut,
verbaceous planets, greater than 90%, less than 90% dense, uncut, rigid plants.
14:30:32 And
14:30:32 I think she said that In reality that vegetation was not greater than 90%
in this wetland.
14:30:42 And so Did you hear that testimony this morning? Yes, I did.
14:30:49 And would you agree with what? Miss Marriott said Yes, based on my site
visit?
14:30:55 I agree that the vegetation is not greater than 90% in this particular
wetland.
14:31:03 Thank you, alright, and then let's go to these charts and the changes in
the wetland categories.
14:31:13 I think. this is page sorry. 7 of this exhibiting 83, and this shows the
ratings that miss.
14:31:27 Sorry, Miss Brewster concluded with as a part part of her examination of
this of these Wetlands, and then i'm gonna scroll.
14:31:44 Down sorry once again. Here we go Wetland Day, and I believe these are the
changes that Miss is Marriott made to the Forum based on her.
14:31:59 Review of Miss brewster's report and then reevaluation of all of the
various ratings.
14:32:10 And would you have any? This is also on page 7 of the report.
14:32:15 So just looking at this for Wetland a Would you have any reason to
disagree with this rating?
14:32:24 No, I agree that by changing the one tmdl rtm Dl.
14:32:33 From no to yes, would add a point. so I agree with the revision that i'm
seeing.
14:32:40 Okay, thank you. and then i'm scrolling down to page 8 of exhibit 83, and
this is
14:32:48 The new chart for wetland. B And again, there are some changes delineated
in red on that on that chart.
14:33:00 Would you have any reason to disagree with the ratings?
14:33:05 No, I do not
14:33:10 Okay, and scrolling down on the same page page 8 of exhibit 83.
14:33:16 There are some changes made to the Wetland D. chart.
14:33:23 And again, would you have any reason to disagree with these?
14:33:26 No? Okay, And then, finally, we're at Wetland e or again, there's changes
delineated in red, and this is also on page 8 of exhibit 83 would you have any
reason to disagree with these
14:33:44 No. Okay. Thank you.
14:33:58 I guess I just like to ask you if there's anything else you'd like to add
to your testimony regarding this project at this point
14:34:17 No, I I think the main thing that what we're trying to get at is are the
are the buffer wists that are shown on the site plan that has been submitted
currently correct.
14:34:30 And is are there impacts to wetland buffers that haven't been identified
to date and I would i'm i'm saying I I agree with the buffer with based on this
revision that i'm
14:34:46 seeing and
14:34:51 The buffer with are shown correctly on the the site plan that was
submitted.
14:34:56 So if we go back to exhibit 49 and this is again, let's see if I can find
to page number.
14:35:05 Well, it's Oh, 6 6 2 in the bait stamps, and I can't see the let's see it
must be down here somewhere.
14:35:16 It's figure 6
14:35:26 If it comes back, maybe you're fine excuse me all right.
14:35:35 So we have Buffer is depicted on the site plan.
14:35:40 Would you agree that these buffers are shown accurately based on all of
the information that you've gathered on this?
14:35:49 On this site, and the developed proposed development Yes, and I Think it's
worth noting that this diagram shows the buffer withs, for you know, small medium
and high or low in moderate and high impacts and this
14:36:12 proposal would be reviewed against the high impact, which is so the outer,
most buffer that is shown on these drawings.
14:36:23 And I agree with those. Okay. Thank you, Donna. I think the other attorney
so probably have some questions for you.
14:36:30 So I appreciate your time. Let me just clarify one thing, Miss Frostone.
14:36:37 You said in that diagram it showed low, medium and high, and you believe
the design has been submitted in a manner that would comply with all 3 buffers.
14:36:47 Whether it was a low medium or a high buffer what i'm saying is that 4
category 4 wetlands they have correctly shown the buffer with but the the county
requires for commercial development
14:37:05 that the outer that the hi this high impact buffer with be used.
14:37:12 And so of the 3 buffer wits that are shown on the diagram,
14:37:23 Yes, so the outer most one, which is the biggest offer is the one the
county is using for regulatory purposes.
14:37:33 Thank you. Alright, let's see We'll turn to Miss Kaylor first, Miss
Kaylor, do you have any questions for this witness?
14:37:42 I do not Thank you. Okay, Mr. Sidel's do you have any questions for this
witness. No questions, Mr.
14:37:48 Examiner. Thank you. Okay, Well, thank you ms frost all appreciate you
sticking with this.
14:37:54 I know you've got other projects to do you're welcome to stay on or watch.
14:37:58 But nice to meet you here online today. I hope you have a good afternoon.
14:38:02 Okay, So I believe Now, Mr. Sidel, she were gonna call your Wetland
rebuttal witness.
14:38:09 That's right. Miss Brewster, are you online I know I saw this.
14:38:17 I am. There we go all right. I Miss Brewster. How are you this afternoon?
14:38:23 I'm doing well. How are you good Well, I just want to give you that you're
under Oath, that I think you know the drill for the process will follow today, Mr.
14:38:33 Sidel's last questions and Then There'll be follow‐ups from Missouri and
Miss Kaylor, as they choose.
14:38:39 Alright. so you remain under Oath that I'm not going to repeat anything
else.
14:38:43 So, Mr. Silence, if you would move forward. Thank you, Mr.
14:38:48 Examiner. Ms. Brewster, I want to take us back to Wetland a there
14:39:01 This whole question about whether it is a sloped or depressional wetland,
and then the percentage of cover that it that it should have based on what you've
heard from the 2 Wetland experts
14:39:20 who just testified it's Miss Marriott and Miss Frost home.
14:39:29 Do you stand by your opinion that Wetland A.
14:39:33 Should actually have been typed as a depressional wetland.
14:39:39 I do? What about their testimony? causes you to stand by your belief?
14:39:49 Because in the case that you have both depression and sloped wetlands, you
only need to 10% of the well end to be depressional in order to call it a
depressional wetland.
14:40:06 And the reason why I think there is enough of the Wetland, even though in
her test.
14:40:21 And let's. See? Miss marriott and her testimony did say that a portion of
the wetland was inundated with water.
14:40:32 It was holding water, so that indicates that there is an outlet higher
than the bottom of the wetland elevation in that area.
14:40:43 In order to hold water. she never said how deep this water is anywhere.
14:40:56 But she did on the the data rating forms she did, if I remember correctly,
she did not include data from a soil sample, because she said that the that the
soil was underwater, and thus so saturated that she
14:41:17 couldn't get a soil sample and the only time that happens is if it's
completely underwater, and the soils are completely saturated, and everything just
falls off your shovel so you can't collect the data that
14:41:33 you need to But at no time did Miss Mary say how large of an area she felt
was inundated compared to her estimate of the size of the wild end.
14:41:53 So I cannot say for sure if there is 10% of the wetland.
14:42:00 But i'm fairly certain. Well, my guess is that if there was less than 10%
that would make it easily a slope wetland.
14:42:11 She would have talked about that also ms frost home. didn't also did not
talk about that, and she also did not mention that the wetland was inundated with
water or when they were out there.
14:42:29 I don't know if she was out on all the days that Jennifer was out there,
but so so what I'm saying is, there's this element of standing water in this
Wetland if it's a slope
14:42:43 wetland water is never detained like that in a wetland.
14:42:49 The definition in the Western. The Wetland rating for Western Washington
is very clear about slopes which I wrote in in my letter to a about Wetlands.
14:43:11 Report is that water always flows over the surface or moves within the
top.
14:43:17 Few inches of the surface, and i've been on many sloped wetlands, and even
when there's water running over the surface of the sloped wetland you can still
pull a soil sample sample from
14:43:32 there. there can be depressions in a slope wetland, but, according to the
rating manual the depressions can only be a few inches in size, and only like have,
like an inch and a half to 2 inches.
14:43:48 Of water in them, and there cannot be very many depressions.
14:43:55 So to have this whole area full of water, says this is a depression.
14:44:03 What is the significance if you're right what is the significance of
Wetland?
14:44:10 A actually being a depression wetland instead of a slope quiteland.
14:44:15 Well, you have to switch for the water quality function questions and the
hydrologic function questions.
14:44:24 You have to switch rating forms. So they There are different questions in
the depressional forms.
14:44:36 Then there are in the slope forms. There are more questions, and some of
the questions that are in there are exactly the same questions that are in the slow
Boyland that pertains only to the 3 point.
14:44:53 Oh, section. So the S. 3.0 questions are exactly the same as the deep 3
point.
14:45:01 Oh, questions! but other than that
14:45:09 And i'm not sure about the d 5 point Oh, but I did not check on that, but
other than that all the other sections have different questions, and you covered
that yesterday quite well.
14:45:24 Next question. Yes, yes, Mr. Examiner, there is in particular. I We heard
quite a lot of testimony from Miss Marriott about sedge grasses or swamp grasses as
as
14:45:46 Yes, yes, slew, said my goodness, We would get there. I think you're a
gardener yourself, Mr.
14:45:49 Mcclain, so I I appreciate your precision on that.
14:45:51 Hey? we called. slew swaps where I grew up all right.
14:45:58 Slewsage. This question of of you know what percentage of wetland a is
covered by sluce edge.
14:46:08 How does How does that question intersect with this question of like?
14:46:12 Is it depressional versus slope, so that the in the rating form for the
slope wetlands on question s 1.3, all of the discussion about the percent cover of
planets has to do only with
14:46:38 herbaceous plants only with these, you know, grasses such as things like
that, and some Forbes.
14:46:50 But it requires dense or basis plants that are not cut.
14:46:54 They do have one question where it allows for dense woody plants greater
than half or half of the area.
14:47:05 But most of the questions in here are about herbaceous plants.
14:47:10 Only so your signals you can ask the question.
14:47:14 But I'm. very interested in hearing some sort of an explanation of you
asked, What is the significance?
14:47:23 And my understanding, is, if the wetland is rated not a category for but
instead a category, 3 or a 2 or a one, and I don't think there's any argument that
It's category one
14:47:35 or 2. I think the question is whether it's a 3 or a 4 but you can correct
me.
14:47:44 But if you'd ask your witness or she can get to it when you want to, in
questioning.
14:47:48 But we saw that illustration that had 3 potential. I think buffers the
high buffer, the medium buffer, the low buffer.
14:47:58 Is there some question that there's a different buffer that should have
been shown on the site plans that we've been talking about today?
14:48:08 Well where we're going, Mr. examiner is if you if you miss, if you if you
answer the wrong questions on your wetland rating form you know you're gonna get a
wrong score and as a result
14:48:22 you're gonna end up you know a ditch.
14:48:28 It's not a wetland, or what so but I i'm the evidence, I mean I feel like
we're given the closing argument already.
14:48:35 The the the evidence that I'm. I'm hoping to persuade you, Mr.
14:48:38 Examiner is that there has been such a mistake made but with their wetland
forms.
14:48:44 But my question is, and we saw it with Miss Frost home just now.
14:48:49 The illustration. it shows the 3 rings, the low buffer, the meeting of
buffer, and the high buffer.
14:48:55 My question is, even if the higher but highest buffer was used.
14:49:00 Is this site plan? Is this design in Does it step into those Wetland
buffers? Yeah, right? Is everything outside the buffers?
14:49:07 Even if you had the 175 foot. i'll call that the worst case scenario.
14:49:14 I I guess my response would be and again, i'd be welcome to the closing
arguments.
14:49:20 Until until you've got a wetland rating form that's correctly filled out.
14:49:23 I mean you you Don't really know what You're dealing with so I think it'd
be kind of, and I understood that the you asked Miss Brewster the question and this
Brewster i'll ask the question if They had
14:49:32 used the what you believe to be the right form, and answered those
complicated questions that you believe would have applied.
14:49:40 What would that do to the buffers that would apply to development on this
site?
14:49:46 What's the most encumbering thing that you believe could have applied to
this project?
14:49:53 If the Wetlands were correctly scored as a very highly productive blue
hair and sanctuary of a wetland, or something well, that that would be a category.
14:50:06 One or 2 wetland. but even if it goes up to a category, 3 wetland, the the
lard, the the buffer for the high impact, which is what they were talking about is
I know the medium impact
14:50:25 is a 110. I think the high impact is 210. but we need to look that up
because I don't know that off the top of my head
14:50:40 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Signals alright and and thank you, Mr.
14:50:45 Examiner that that is where I was going to to take a you know, kind of
from the big picture where we just were down to the weeds again.
14:50:56 Or perhaps down to the loose edge again. yeah.
14:51:02 Pretty witty. Huh! you as I understand it.
14:51:09 Whether it's it's 90% sluice edge or whether it's 90% forested you know
the that kind of turns on whether it's sloped or depressional correct that does not
have to
14:51:22 do with the the hydrogenomorphic classification of the wetland.
14:51:29 But it does have to do with that question. 1.3, and that is because in the
depression we just talked about in the slope one, it pertains primarily 2 orbaceous
material in the wetland.
14:51:47 This the one in the depressional rating form actually pertains to all.
14:51:57 I wanna read off of the rating manual here it's says you were looking for
the areas that would be classified as emergent scrub shrub or forested.
14:52:09 The rating form itself says, and or forested classes, Hydrogemorphic.
14:52:17 Our coordinates, which just refers to the different structures in the
wetland.
14:52:24 The heights of the vegetation. And it says, these are all persistent types
of plants.
14:52:33 Those species that normally remain standing, at least until the beginning
of the next growing season.
14:52:40 Got it so and I look at exhibit 83, which is the
14:52:45 The the private investigators report that they turned in yesterday,
they're saying with regards to wetland day, they say
14:52:55 The wetland condition off site did not include dense, uncut, rigid plants
at over 90% cover.
14:53:00 Thus this was not selected if i'm understanding your testimony correctly.
14:53:04 That's that's that's only true if we're talking about sedge grass. you're
not.
14:53:09 You're not saying it's 90% sedge but you are saying it's 90% forced it up.
14:53:17 Some other 90% vegetation of some other type.
14:53:18 And the reason that it's appropriate to look to some other type is because
it is depression rather than sloped.
14:53:25 Have I Have I figured this out, or or one of you kind of walk us through
it? object to this point. that mischaracterizes the testimony earlier given by Miss
Brewster. she said.
14:53:37 If she had to guess, she would say it was 90% less than 90% vegetated.
14:53:44 And so I don't believe that she categorically said that what i'm sorry,
minister, let me just you.
14:53:56 You believe him to be misstating what her Prior testimony was yes, all
right. So Mr. Sidel, she's under.
14:54:03 Oath. So why don't you ask the right question and let her answer it?
14:54:07 Sure tell us the about vegetation coverage.
14:54:09 Both extent and type of of wetland a you answer Mr.
14:54:15 Sidel's would you withdraw your characterization of exhibit 83, and a
private investors report.
14:54:22 I don't believe it was that was it that Miss Marriott's Follow up Memo.
14:54:26 Yes, yes, the the private Wetlands expert that they had so that you said
involved in This matter.
14:54:40 So that it was just a slip. That's right, Mr.
14:54:42 Examiner, but I the the verbatim quote was accurate.
14:54:44 They said it's not 90% vegetable I understand I understand.
14:54:48 I just wanted to make sure you knew we were talking to the same exhibit.
14:54:50 83. So your question restate it to Ms. Brewster and Miss Brewster List,
and carefully and provide an answer.
14:54:57 If you need to change your testimony, do that, or if you stand by what you
said yesterday, then repeated, Go ahead.
14:55:02 Miss Brucester, what's your understanding of the extent and type of
vegetation coverage there at Wetland?
14:55:10 A Okay, so I we'll say that I never did say what all of the wetland a
vegetation was because all I have seen is the photograph, and
14:55:25 The testimony of Miss Marriott, stating that there is a certain amount of
sluice edge.
14:55:35 There is a fair amount of salmon, Barry.
14:55:45 But so at this point I am not saying with Certainty what's the cover is
but in Ms.
14:55:54 Marriott's testimony this morning when you when she was talking about the
percent cover of plants that would meet the definition of in the D 1.3 question
14:56:22 Courtney, you are unnerving me that she spoke pretty much only of the
slushage when you asked her.
14:56:35 Could there I'm, going to object this mischaracterizes Miss marriott's
testimony.
14:56:47 Yes, Mr. Brewster, I don't need you to repeat what you think you heard
people say I would like Mr.
14:56:54 Sidel to ask you what your opinions are about.
14:56:56 The characterization of plant material that might be in a particular
wetland.
14:56:59 But please step away from meeting what you think you heard somebody say,
Tell me what you think.
14:57:06 Tell me what your opinion is. I think that there is more persistent,
ungraced plants in Wetland.
14:57:19 A then was considered when answering the questions in this form, because
even if I come up with persistent, ungraced plants, being greater than half of the
area that will bump up the score of the wetland high enough along
14:57:43 with some of the that changes to the to the water quality.
14:57:51 Questions to A has the potential to push it up to a call category.
14:57:56 3 wetland, so it so it's it was not clear to me whether all of the woody
vegetation was being considered this morning about how much cover of persistence
i'm ungraced plants we're in
14:58:23 the lowland A. and when you're answering that question you know how much
persistent, ungraced cover is in the wetland, is it appropriate to look to all
vegetation, types, including trees and shrubs and
14:58:33 stuff. or are you supposed to just look at grass such as slew edge?
14:58:39 No, it's it's all the trees all the shrubs, and all the ground cover as
long as the ground cover.
14:58:48 When it dies back, is what they call persistent in the rating manual.
14:58:54 That is that through the wintertime the stocks remain upright and can slow
waters moving through the wetland.
14:59:05 And based on the photographs and testimony that you've seen?
14:59:10 Do you believe that that standard is met here? Well, this asks for
different areas of cover.
14:59:17 So I object again. object on what grounds Miss Kaylor?
14:59:26 But I ask that question, Mr. Cytles you're not a hearing examiner yet.
14:59:33 Thank you. Mr. Examiner. I am going to object because this witness is not
testifying about her direct knowledge.
14:59:43 If the witness wants to testify about something she knows about though
that's fine.
14:59:49 She's already testified. she hasn't been out to the site.
14:59:52 So i'm really, unclear on why she's testifying about how much vegetation
is in the wetland that she's never seen.
14:59:57 So That's what i'm objecting on I believe this is a backdoor way of
mischaracterizing Miss Marriott's testimony again.
15:00:05 Because what she's saying is based on what She heard this morning, and
then she's going to go on and reach a conclusion that is actually directly contrary
to what Miss Maria testified to which is that the vegetation cover
15:00:17 is not present. So again, I guess this is a couple of very long winded way
of saying this once again mischaracterizes missing Maria's testimony, which is, you
know, evident in the record for us
15:00:29 all and You're questioning the foundation or the ability of this witness
to make a certain conclusion because she didn't make a site, visit, perhaps.
15:00:38 But, Mr. Sydles, if you narrow your question to her opinion, based on
examining photographs and things of that sort, i'll allow an answer to the
question.
15:00:47 But beyond that, Let's refrain from restating or mischaracterizing or
trying to not what you think you heard earlier. Thank you, Mr.
15:00:56 Examiner and my question was based on the evidence that you've heard, and
the photographs that you've seen evidence which was given under oath in front of
all of us you know that is the foundation for her testimony so
15:01:06 I I don't I don't see how that you know, and and that was a question
anyways.
15:01:12 It didn't miss state anyone's testimony so the answer may be, Maybe you
may be getting an answer.
15:01:19 It's different than your specific question, Mr. sidel so so this Brewster,
step away.
15:01:23 Try not to say what you think you heard Tell us your opinions.
15:01:28 Mr. Sidos, do you have any other questions, Rooster? Well, I I would.
15:01:33 I would like for that question to be answered which is you know based on
the evidence that you've heard, and the and the photographs that you've reviewed as
an expert.
15:01:40 Do you believe that the 90% coverage has been met?
15:01:48 So I I would simply like to say that also. One of the things that I looked
at that led me to this to the conclusion that there is a high likelihood that yes,
it would.
15:02:03 It would bump up the rating score enough to create to make this a well and
3.
15:02:08 Well end is that I looked at the aerial photographs that are in in the
critical areas.
15:02:18 Report. I think it's exhibit 69
15:02:29 Okay? So he asked a very specific question to which I think you can say
yes, because or no, because or i'm not sure because so signals. If you need to
repeat, your question, do it.
15:02:45 And, Miss Brewster, please try to answer his question and if you need to
add to that you'll give you a chance to do it.
15:02:50 If you want you to, Mr. Sydles. So 90% vegetated cover do we get there?
15:02:58 And how do you know I do not think we get to 90%?
15:03:05 I think that we get to greater than half of the area greater than 50%, and
that is based on
15:03:22 The the aerial photographs that are shown in the critical areas, reports
and looking at the vegetative signature in the
15:03:36 That shows the amount of trees and basically trees, but also a few areas
that looks like shrubs can be seen through the trees, and also based on
15:03:57 The description in the report about what is growing in the wetland, and
the photograph of what land A.
15:04:05 That shows yes, the slushage, but also some densely growing salmon, Barry,
and a few trees.
15:04:17 Thank you. I think no further questions. Alright, So now for any.
15:04:24 Follow‐up questions from Ms. Erlichman or Ms.
15:04:28 Kaylor
15:04:31 Hello, Ms. Brewster, as you know My understanding of the testimony that
you just gave.
15:04:45 If I heard correctly you were talking about Wetland A.
15:04:48 Is that right? Yes, and you weren't I didn't hear you refer to another
lettered wetland in your testimony. Is that correct?
15:04:58 Just any your testimony just now you're about a testimony.
15:05:01 Yeah, that was all about what landing? Okay, Thank you.
15:05:08 And I i'm just gonna share my screen and show you the critical areas.
15:05:20 Report Wetland a and and so what i'm showing you for the record is what's
been marked county exhibit 49, and I am on Pdf.
15:05:32 Page 33 of that document. Wetland a is the wetland that is in I'm.
15:05:43 Getting my directions right the south west corner of the site.
15:05:47 Is that correct? Yes, and and getting to the examiner's question earlier.
15:05:57 The The point of your testimony was to suggest that possibly a different
greater buffer would be required on what one day.
15:06:09 Is that correct? Yes, And you were suggesting a 150 foot buffer as opposed
to a 50 football firm.
15:06:18 Right. yes. Well, that that right after the top of my head I don't
remember the width of the buffers as they pertain to the low, moderate or high land
intensity. uses okay I think the 1 50
15:06:41 might be the moderate, but it might also be the high I I do not know
15:06:52 So then, Okay, perhaps I can refresh your memory here.
15:06:59 By showing you your own report. Then which Oh, that's a poem exhibit
apologies.
15:07:12 I'm gonna have to look up which county exhibit number.
15:07:15 It is Let me stop sharing and do that, so that I can refer to it properly.
15:07:24 In my apologies when i'm speaking you may hear a noise code, violation,
with the dog snoring in the background.
15:07:31 Now having to hit mute. Miss Miss Brewster, your report was identified as
account exhibit 69.
15:07:45 So going back to that report. i'm on page 4 of that exhibit.
15:07:52 And you are suggesting here that Wetland A.
15:07:54 Would have a 150 foot buffer, are you not?
15:07:57 Yes, and going back then to our critical areas exhibit here.
15:08:04 Do you know, sitting here today whether a 150 foot buffer would whether
any of the project development would be within a 150 foot buffer a while?
15:08:18 One night. I do not think that it would so, even if, just for sake of
argument, you are correct.
15:08:26 About the 150 foot buffer, the project would still not be within the
buffer.
15:08:29 Correct correct and I I don't want to be the dead horse here.
15:08:38 But you you haven't seen what one day or any of the other wetlands that
we've been talking about.
15:08:44 Correct. yes, not personally with my own eyes. Right? So you have no
personal direct knowledge of how much vegetation is in them.
15:08:53 How much water is in them, whether they're sloped or depression, All
you're entirely relying on the critical or his report correct?
15:09:01 That that is correct? let's see here
15:09:15 At the end of your discussion there, are with Mr. sidel's. I've written
this down as a quote net, so I I hope I I didn't Miss Wright when discussing
wetland a and the amount of
15:09:28 vegetation in it. what I heard you say is we don't get to 90% that you get
to above half
15:09:39 It. Do you recall saying that? Am I correct? Yeah, I I said.
15:09:43 I believe that it would be greater than 50%. Okay, Did Did you also say
you didn't get to 90%.
15:09:50 Yes, Okay, then, shifting back to your report,
15:09:59 And this time looking on the bottom of page 3 and top of page 4 you're
discussing wetland a question s 4.1 and
15:10:18 The sentence that runs from the top of Come on the bottom of page 3 to the
top of page 4.
15:10:28 A pines that the wetland actually does have a vegetation covering greater
than 90% of the wetland.
15:10:35 Correct, based on the photograph that I saw on Wetland.
15:10:44 A Yes, in the report right but that's inconsistent with your testimony
just now that actually you don't get to 90% correct.
15:10:53 It is after having heard the testimony of Miss Marriott, and what the rest
of the what she believed the rest of what I looked like.
15:11:03 Okay, Thank you. I have no further questions. Okay, Is there likeman just
to confirm?
15:11:10 Do you have any? follow up questions from his Brewster?
15:11:15 I do not thank you, and Mr. Sidel's do you have any redirect for Miss
Brewster.
15:11:21 Just one notwithstanding the fact that Miss Marriott's testimony has
persuaded you.
15:11:31 That wetland. A, you know, does have under 90% vegetation coverage
15:11:35 Do you still believe that? The Wetland rating forms were incorrectly
filled out?
15:11:43 I I think that it is highly likely if it, if if they came up with the same
score that they had before, I do think that there were.
15:11:54 It is highly likely that some of the answers were based on some of the
answers in the slope.
15:12:07 Rating forms, and not taking into account that some of those answers, some
of those questions, too, in the depressional rating forms.
15:12:17 Thank you. No further question
15:12:22 Hold on this, Brewster just a second. Ms.
15:12:27 Brewster. So a lot of the make sure by sorry an apologies figure animal
noises in the background.
15:12:35 A lot of the controversy that i've heard over the last 2 days is the
characterization of the Wetlands that everyone agrees you are either on or off the
site. but nearby and it sounds like you
15:12:51 know bottom line is, you believe that they are mischaracterized, that they
should probably be something other than a category for But I wanna just verify that
I heard you say this, that even if they are one of the more protected
15:13:06 categories of wetland of the consequences. A bigger buffer would apply
right
15:13:20 Of protecting that Wetland right Okay, i'm sorry I got lost in part of
your question, because i'm not really calling into question all 4 of the Wetlands.
15:13:33 Just interesting. Totally understand that. Okay, one is mischaracterized.
15:13:38 The result would be if it is a more protected wetland.
15:13:41 It would have a more restrictive buffer.
15:13:44 Right? Yes. okay. Are there any other mitigation measures that you believe
would have to apply?
15:13:53 If it is a more protected wetland, let's just say, instead of being a
category, 4 it's a category 3.
15:13:59 So we i've heard and you've agreed that there would be a bigger buffer
that would apply instead of the low protective buffer.
15:14:08 It might need the medium or the high Are there any other protection?
15:14:13 Mitigation measures that you believe would have to apply if it were a more
protected.
15:14:21 What way? yes. one of the measures is that one of the things that I
remember reading in
15:14:40 The description of this Site development was that one of the things that
they wanted to do was create some walking trails through the forest.
15:14:48 And so if the buffer is larger, if the buffer needs to be larger, if it is
a category 3, then those that particular area would be
15:15:03 You would not be putting walking trails. I would try to keep the trails
out of the supper, right? So it's just more protection for the we end.
15:15:12 Yeah, alright. Alright, make sure I understood that I don't have any other
questions. Mr.
15:15:20 Sidel's. Miss kaylor Miss Erlitman to either of y'all have any questions
of this Brewster based on my question.
15:15:27 I do not I I do Mr. examiner I heard Miss Bristol say something to you in
response to your question.
15:15:37 I'm not, and I just want to clarify to make sure that I understood her
properly.
15:15:44 Yes, yes, I believe. Miss Brewster,
15:15:49 The examiner asked you about Wetland buffers, and and you said you were
calling into question the other Wetlands.
15:16:01 Just a Is that correct? correct? Okay. And so in your testimony.
15:16:09 Now, in contrast to the memo that you provided originally, which did
address a range of other wetlands.
15:16:17 Your testimony at this moment. you are testifying that the only wetland
you are The only Wetland rating are calling into question. Is that for Whatland?
15:16:30 A back there in the south, west corner of the site.
15:16:32 Is that right? that's correct. Okay, thank you for that clarification.
15:16:37 I also wanted to ask you about trails. Have you reviewed the Jefferson
County Code provisions regarding whether passive recreation is allowed in Wetland
buffers.
15:16:49 I have not. okay? And so, if it, if that were allowed by code would it
then be your opinion that if let me rephrase because I was a little bit vague,
would your comment regarding the location of trainings
15:17:07 still apply. If the Jefferson County code allowed trails.
15:17:11 And what about? Well, yes, because then, the buffer would not protect
people from walking closer to the wetland, and so would would it be your testimony
that, notwithstanding what's allowed in the code you you would
15:17:31 not think it should be allowed
15:17:35 Or if if trainings are are allowed in buffers, do you believe the code
should be followed?
15:17:43 I believe that sorry I missed the last part of that.
15:17:46 I believe the code should be. What do you believe? code regulations
regarding allowed activities and buffers should be followed?
15:17:56 I I keep missing the last word that you're using Oh, followed, do you .
15:18:05 That the code requirements for a loud rep activities in buffers should be
followed.
15:18:13 Well as a person who really
15:18:22 It's not just a like of wetlands but understanding the functions of
Wetlands.
15:18:26 I like to see as much protection as possible, so personally I would love
it if there were not walking trails through a wetland buffer.
15:18:38 However, I know that that doesn't matter when it comes to code.
15:18:44 Okay. Thank you. No further questions. Was that a note? No.
15:18:53 Follow up. Okay? Sorry I didn't hear you there alright and desert when I
assume.
15:18:59 Do you have any questions? I do not. Alright, Ms.
15:19:02 Brewster, Thank you for your patience and your commitment to being here
with us throughout a long hearing process.
15:19:08 It was very nice to see you and meet you through the online platform.
15:19:12 I appreciate your time and your testimony, and I hope you have a good
afternoon.
15:19:16 Okay, Thank you. you, too alright. Okay, so let's see to all 3 Council.
15:19:25 Is that the last witness that you all anticipated?
15:19:28 Does anybody have extraordinary good cause to request an individual to be
called for rebuttal purposes?
15:19:35 You're on the left you had pose a question earlier about International
Fire Code and the need for signage on the road.
15:19:50 We can bring Miss Hunt back to answer that question. If you would like I
would.
15:19:55 If there is, they have a ready answer. Yes, they do. And Miss Taylor, what
are your witnesses?
15:20:02 I think it was was gonna look up was a the tmdo.
15:20:06 The 3 O. 3 d listing map from the department of ecology which i'm in.
15:20:10 I could take judicial notice. But, I wanna say that in my time I already
did pull it up, and I saw it, and I think the witness just to let you all know the
witness explained.
15:20:20 That. Oh, I did a screenshot of something and you can on your own. Go to
the department of the college website, and it takes a lot of looking to find it.
15:20:28 But because i've had clients work with water quality issues. I found it,
and it is a screenshot that somebody used, but it would have been much preferable
for them to have department of ecology.
15:20:39 Xyz, whatever it is that they call It so I did authenticate where it came
from.
15:20:43 I'm not gonna make you go to that trouble but if somebody's already done
it.
15:20:47 I would accept it as an overbered exhibit.
15:20:49 I reckon I I recognize the map, the portion of the map, anyway.
15:20:56 Mr. Examiner. Miss Marriott, did send to me, and I have circulated to Miss
Smith and the parties by email.
15:21:06 During testimony, so I don't know if they have had the chance to review.
15:21:11 Yet both the the additional photograph that she showed so that everybody
has that as well as
15:21:21 The 3 O. 3 d map, the Tmdl. map, and then at Tmdl.
15:21:26 Just makeative listing. So the same information, just Not graphically.
15:21:34 So I have circulated those those items No that's fine Okay, thank you.
15:21:44 And Missouri. When can we rely on?
15:21:47 Is it you or your paralegal who will be putting the final numbers
together?
15:21:52 Try to guess the number, and thank you for the courtesy of doing that for
everybody.
15:21:57 It makes it much easier for everyone, and by the way what while we're on
that Soj. can can we get like a final like master copy of the exhibits with the
bait stamped on them, because by I noticed during the hearing you would always
refer
15:22:07 to it by the beach number. But Courtney and I would always refer to it
each number. Is there gonna be like a like a version to rule them all at the end of
this?
15:22:18 Yeah, I believe the laser fish documents. Now show bait stamps on all of
the documents, so you can access those through that process.
15:22:28 And then our exhibit lists. I believe it just look at it really quick, By
the way, I don't want to do much more of this housekeeping, because I want to get
to your closing arguments and I wanted to give you all about 5 or
15:22:42 10 min to take a break before you decide, or whatever can we address it?
15:22:47 So go ahead and start when you were talking. So I told you all at the end
of testimony in housekeeping.
15:22:58 I want to hear from you about briefing or closing arguments.
15:23:02 So, and you all Pop pondered that question. I take it so.
15:23:06 What say each of you you you don't have to say the same thing.
15:23:10 But if you do that's fine Mr. Examiner, for the appliance of Courtney
Kaylor, and we're prepared to do verbal closings today, if if the examiner prefers
and would
15:23:26 like to see written briefing. jen We are also prepared to submit, written,
written, written, written, closing.
15:23:36 We have this. All the parties attorneys have discussed the timing of that.
15:23:41 If the executioner wants written clothing closings, I would propose no
later than the end of next week, and I personally could probably get it done a
little earlier.
15:23:54 And i'll let the other parties wait in because you're in the middle of my
screen, Mr.
15:24:00 Cycles. i'll hear from you on it next well on my screen i'm way out on the
left, but alright, we also would prefer a we would prefer a written closing I think
the examiner gets better
15:24:13 results when it is written, especially when it comes to some of the more
technical issues, such as noise and wetland rating.
15:24:21 End of next week would be fine for me in terms of workload.
15:24:25 I am leaving this firm this is actually my last week on the job.
15:24:30 I'll be doing some contract work later. i'll be like out of town and
unreachable by design from from from October 8 to October.
15:24:42 24, I I I definitely can get my hearing at my my written closing done.
15:24:45 You know well before that. if the other parties want a later deadline,
like if they wanted it to be like October 20 first, or something like that, I would
draft mine earlier and then have my staff file at you know October
15:24:56 20 first, but my preference would be for a written closing but i'm not
fussy about when that would be due.
15:25:04 I can get it pretty fast, and Mr. lickman for the county we've We've all
talked about it.
15:25:12 I do have some constraints next week but I think we've worked it out where
i'm good with accepting the end of October seventh date that was suggested by Miss
gaylor the end of what I'm
15:25:27 sorry October 7, which friday. Okay, and I've got a conference next week
that I wouldn't be able to do anything if you gave me something on Monday.
15:25:38 Tuesday or Wednesday, anyway. so so did I hear Missouri, and say, the
close of business next week is an acceptable deadline for you the county.
15:25:49 Yes, and Mr. Sidel said that would work Gram or later.
15:25:55 And Miss Kaylor said that would work for her, too. Okay.
15:25:58 So sounds like you. all 3 can make written briefing happen of.
15:26:04 I agree that where you have multiple parties, and here we have at least 2
issues on the table.
15:26:10 And I know all 3 of you to be outstanding attorneys, and anybody that's
listening should know that all 3 parties are extraordinarily well represented by
Council. this matter.
15:26:22 I know I can benefit from your closing briefs because you're all 3
extremely smart and thorough people way smarter than me.
15:26:30 So tell me why you think your position should prevail or not.
15:26:36 And and to the County Missouri, Litman. In your briefing.
15:26:39 If there are any changes to the staff report or recommended conditions,
that this, based on the testimony and the evidence in the record, let me know, or
if Staff stands by that as written and issued, which is a where I think you are but
15:26:53 Hey, you you! This staff has the right to hear everything, and tell me the
last word on what they think.
15:26:58 The recommendation should be to Mr. sidel's in your briefing.
15:27:03 If you believe conditions should change, based on environmental evidence
and information in front of me, or any way forward shape, let me know how you want
what Youbrid proposed of and that goes for any of you.
15:27:16 And Miss Kaylor the same thing and to all 3 of you. if there's certain
aspects that you feel strongly about that, you want to make sure that the hearing
examiner gets right and doesn't screw up if
15:27:26 you want to propose conditions. If you want to propose a conclusion or a
finding, let me know.
15:27:32 The main thing you can let me know is if There is any case law on specific
facts that have patterns that are similar to what we are facing here.
15:27:42 That would help me of that always that's always very helpful I don't sit
here with the free West law account.
15:27:46 So I don't just randomly research things and some of you might so that's
very helpful to me.
15:27:50 If you do a little researching and keep me current and what's going on.
15:27:57 Let's see I Want to come in to all of you for being so prepared on this
hearing, and for having your witnesses prepared.
15:28:05 I know that's hard work and to people that are still listening.
15:28:09 I don't think everybody understands how you all have done a great job
saving money for your clients in the sense that if we were all in the same room in
an out‐of‐town location, and I think i'm
15:28:18 right that every single expert that was called they don't reside near
where we would have had the hearing.
15:28:24 And of you all with have to pay your experts to be there hotels over
nights, and things like that, and you've done a tremendous job and efficient
presentation for your clients by not having them, have to do that and wait for
hours
15:28:40 and hours and hours. and I just want to say thank you on behalf of your
clients getting it done that way into the county for allowing it to go forward and
to members of the public that are still online.
15:28:50 I have all the written comments they are now incorporated in the record,
and I did see that, and I.
15:28:56 And that's reminds me of one thing Mr. Lickman, if you would ask Staff.
15:29:01 They did post some new items, and they attributed it.
15:29:03 They attributed them to particular individuals, and I recognize what they
are.
15:29:09 But but the label the but the document, itself, doesn't say a few of them
do someone say this is gary and here's what I say.
15:29:17 Some of them are just statements, So they don't say where it comes from, I
presume it was transmitted to you via, email and it says this is Gary.
15:29:25 And here's my here's what I read today well staple that to it.
15:29:31 And in a, you know, on the on the online exhibit attached the transmittal
email, assuming it. Yeah.
15:29:36 So we know exactly who it comes from. and when it was sent Okay, yes, sir.
15:29:42 That reminds me. we did get a comment that came in today from I believe it
was from Kerry Ross.
15:29:51 Which I assume is not shouldn't be entered into the record, because it's
you hit close the record yes, I believe late witnesses right.
15:30:08 Mr. Sils. She testified on traffic as a Cpa issue and she spoke during the
public meeting. Right?
15:30:17 Right. I I haven't seen it if it was just her transmitting her written
statement that she read into the record.
15:30:26 Alright, Ms. Kaylor, do you have objection to including it or not?
15:30:32 I I believe that I have seen that if it was was that transmitted earlier
today.
15:30:37 Yeah, I got it at 1252 i'm gonna forward It looks like it already.
15:30:43 Went to Alex, but i'll make sure that you get it Well, I will say on the
record that written comments are untimely if they weren't received before the close
of the conditional use permit hearing yesterday, but I
15:30:56 did allow for several people who identified themselves on the record or on
behalf of neighbors or people who couldn't be there, and we have those in the
record, and I did hear of Ms ross's testimony
15:31:11 twice on the issue. So if it looks like it's repeating it.
15:31:17 I'm fine with that. but if anybody has an objection I woke it admitted
into the record.
15:31:21 But if nobody has an objection I will gladly include it and and for the
applicant, if it's if it's simply a written version of her same testimony, then of
course we don't object i'm not sure that I
15:31:31 have seen it, so I I don't know at this point if that's what it is, or if
it's something different if it raises new issues.
15:31:40 I guess I would reserve the right to take a look at it here in the next
couple of minutes.
15:31:46 If it's gonna get sent to me and if I have objections. i'll i'll let the
parties in the examiner know we'll stay within the next hour.
15:31:53 Let's assign it. a Number Mr. Lickman and everybody's got it it will all
right, and if if I say an objection, or Miss Taylor before close to business today
the item will be stricken and not included if
15:32:04 there is no objection, it will be assigned the next numbered exhibit and
included alright.
15:32:11 Is that satisfactory to the parties that's fine There's one last little
detail in this was we were gonna hear back from Amanda Hunt.
15:32:21 Thank you, all right. It is Miss Hunt still online. Looks like it.
15:32:26 Sorry I am here, your Honor, There you are, and you remain under oath, and
visitors Likeman called you because I asked you a question. were there.
15:32:35 I have some international fire code or other provisions that that may
mandate signage of a certain sort for a use of this type.
15:32:44 That was my general question. Missouri. Do you have any other question to
that for this witness?
15:32:50 So is how did you find anything So what's this regard to signage and not
the safety lights.
15:32:59 Go ahead. Okay. So for safety lights, Brian Tracer and the Jefferson
County Staff confirmed that in the International Fire Code and the local fire code
we do not have any requirements regarding Outdoor
15:33:12 safety lights for emergency access requirements, and regard for signage.
15:33:19 I believe I know from my own knowledge that typical all properties have a
fireplate.
15:33:24 But the car that the question was regard to safety lights and not the
signage itself. My question didn't have any good do a safety light.
15:33:33 So was really curious as to whether cited of a certain sort was required
for a use like this, and I know that addressing can be required.
15:33:42 But the question is, is more than addressing like a sign. have to be
included on a commercial use like this.
15:33:49 Do you know, if you go, you don't know okay, I just one clarification, I
think the question actually had to do with lighting on the sign is, If i'm not
mistaken, because it was the question that I asked that originally started
15:34:03 all this? Yes, illuminated signs. Do they have to put an illuminated sign
right?
15:34:08 So did you find out anything about whether lighting on a sign was required
due to the answer I received over the phone call.
15:34:17 Since they don't have any regulations regarding lighting for emergencies.
15:34:23 Then lighting out a sign would also not be regulated.
15:34:26 Thank you. Thank you. Ms: Ha! Appreciate your time today.
15:34:32 Alright, Are there any other housekeeping issues from council?
15:34:37 I have just had the opportunity to review Miss Miss Ross's letter it.
15:34:44 It does raise issues that I do not recall being raised in her testimony.
15:34:52 Specifically procedural issues about wanting more time for public comment.
15:35:01 If if i'm mistaken and that issue was raised, it also raises issues about
the care what what type of use this project is, and I I do not recall that being in
her testimony, if it was and I am
15:35:19 forgetting that Mr. Saddles can correct me but if it Wasn't.
15:35:24 Then I would object to that
15:35:29 Any response to the titles I don't see anything new in this email.
15:35:35 I mean the the email is like you know 150 or 200 words long.
15:35:38 It's a very short email I would just leave it on your desk, Mr.
15:35:41 Examiner. if you think there's something new and improper, then by all
means strike it.
15:35:47 But you know, if you feel this is just you know putting in writing what
has already been said many times by by multiple people.
15:35:52 Then, maybe, as we'll keep it in deserve like but you have a strong
opinion one way or the other.
15:35:58 I don't I I agree that there are a couple of things in here that we're not
in the testimony.
15:36:05 But I think the county is always going to era.
15:36:12 The side of allowing more public input so well, I will accept it.
15:36:15 But I will note based on Ms. Ivan looked at it Ms. Kaylor's
representation.
15:36:19 I think i've heard all these statements and I will say that others have
done a very competent job in representing the same points.
15:36:28 So it's probably saying things i've already heard and as I addressed
yesterday.
15:36:31 There has been an ample opportunity for public comment and public hearing
through here.
15:36:36 I heard from everybody who appeared yesterday and that's the way the law
works. the rules. Were you're here, you're allowed to testify.
15:36:45 I let everybody testify that was here yesterday until we got to the end,
and I extended the record to as a courtesy of the people who, I was told were not
able to be there and their written materials are now in the record
15:36:57 so i'll receive it, but I don't think it adds anything I've already heard
from folks so they very competently represented all positions and angles in the
record.
15:37:06 So if there are no other housekeeping issues, the record is open.
15:37:11 Allowing for closing briefs for all 3 parties regarding this sepa appeal.
15:37:17 And if you want to address the conditional permit application, you can do
that as well.
15:37:23 I don't need 2 briefs and i'm not looking for more than 20 pages from
anybody.
15:37:28 So do your best and tens of great number 2 but do your best, cause you may
want to draft some recommended findings, or anything of that sort, too.
15:37:38 That's fine. So if there are no other questions from the from Council.